He didn't necessarily call it "staging" but the idea was there - he included what he referred to as hidden "layover" tracks in many designs in his book(s).
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
dehusman If you have ever been to an actual theater, there is a "backstage". The area behind and to the sides of the stage where actors go when they are no performing, where sets and props not being used in the current scene are stored and where actors go when they exit the current scene. Its the origin of the phrase, "waiting in the wings".
I think the term/idea of "staging" originated with John Armstrong - although Frank Ellison worked much of his life in and around the theater, so I suppose it could have been him. Anyway, I know Armstrong designed a layout that he described as being like a theater stage. The scenicked part would be built along one wall of a basement, with "wings" off each side representing the rest of the railroad. Trains came from say east staging, did their work on the scenicked part of the layout, and then either returned to the east or exited to the west. Kinda like how in a Shakespeare play a character will go offstage to go to a battle, and then come back on stage later to report the result.
doctorwayne ATLANTIC CENTRAL With staging for thirty trains, and a fair sized visible yard working, I don't see much need for active staging on my new layout. Yeah, I think that most of us who use some form of staging have their own method of using it. I'm normally the sole operator of my layout (although some of my grandkids are allowed to run trains if they're so-inclined). If I wish to service any of the staging areas, it's a matter of taking cars off the staging tracks and putting them back in their respective boxes, and then re-stocking those tracks with different cars. I don't have enough on-layout space for all my rolling stock, but this is a good way to see that everything gets used...eventually.When I'm running trains, it may take only a couple hours to reach another staging yard, and perhaps end the operating session. Other times, It might take days or even weeks of intermittent operation for the train to complete its run...sometimes other tasks are more pressing, or sometimes I need a break to work on projects that are still outstanding...either way, it's good entertainment. Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL With staging for thirty trains, and a fair sized visible yard working, I don't see much need for active staging on my new layout.
Yeah, I think that most of us who use some form of staging have their own method of using it. I'm normally the sole operator of my layout (although some of my grandkids are allowed to run trains if they're so-inclined). If I wish to service any of the staging areas, it's a matter of taking cars off the staging tracks and putting them back in their respective boxes, and then re-stocking those tracks with different cars. I don't have enough on-layout space for all my rolling stock, but this is a good way to see that everything gets used...eventually.When I'm running trains, it may take only a couple hours to reach another staging yard, and perhaps end the operating session. Other times, It might take days or even weeks of intermittent operation for the train to complete its run...sometimes other tasks are more pressing, or sometimes I need a break to work on projects that are still outstanding...either way, it's good entertainment.
Wayne
Agreed, I don't see anything wrong with any form of active staging, and clearly some rolling stock comes and goes from any layout.
As stated earlier, one of my goals is to handle rolling stock and locos as little as possible.
So I plan to bring trains out to the main yard when they need to be "reworked" or "reset" for the next ops session, or for simple display running, an option specificly built into my track plan.
I considered larger more complex staging schemes, but decided that was a bad idea, really bad idea......
I worked hard to keep the layout as simple as possible for the stated goals.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALWith staging for thirty trains, and a fair sized visible yard working, I don't see much need for active staging on my new layout.
dknelson One good reason to have staging either out of sight or at least physically somewhat apart from the main part of the layout (not necessarily at a separate level by the way) is to allow the staging yard yardmaster to get his work done in a timely way so operators don't get bored. Otherwise staging yards tend to be like the kitchen at Thanksgiving - for some reason everyone seems to gather where the busiest person is and that interferes with the cook. Another reason is that the staging yard, since it is not a "model" of anything is typically not scenicked, track is not ballasted, switch motors might be top mounted. Track might be Code 100 when the rest of the layout is Code 70 or 83. It is purely functional, or can be. Third reason is that a trusted staging yard yardmaster might be permitted to touch the trains but the rest of the operators may be instructed never to do that. Easier to maintain that discipline (in this era of expensive freight cars) when the lonely exception to the rule is out of sight/out of mind. Dave Nelson
One good reason to have staging either out of sight or at least physically somewhat apart from the main part of the layout (not necessarily at a separate level by the way) is to allow the staging yard yardmaster to get his work done in a timely way so operators don't get bored. Otherwise staging yards tend to be like the kitchen at Thanksgiving - for some reason everyone seems to gather where the busiest person is and that interferes with the cook.
Another reason is that the staging yard, since it is not a "model" of anything is typically not scenicked, track is not ballasted, switch motors might be top mounted. Track might be Code 100 when the rest of the layout is Code 70 or 83. It is purely functional, or can be.
Third reason is that a trusted staging yard yardmaster might be permitted to touch the trains but the rest of the operators may be instructed never to do that. Easier to maintain that discipline (in this era of expensive freight cars) when the lonely exception to the rule is out of sight/out of mind.
Dave Nelson
While I underestand the idea of "active" staging yards, and agree with your thoughts on the subject. Most of my operating session experiance has been on layouts without an active staging yardmaster.
I guess the operative questions are:
How big is the layout?
How many operators?
How long is an operating session?
How many trains will be "handled"
How many trains can be "pre-staged"?
Is there an active visible yard breaking up and making up trains?
With staging for thirty trains, and a fair sized visible yard working, I don't see much need for active staging on my new layout.
dknelson . . . be like the kitchen at Thanksgiving - for some reason everyone seems to gather where the busiest person is and that interferes with the cook.
. . . be like the kitchen at Thanksgiving - for some reason everyone seems to gather where the busiest person is and that interferes with the cook.
Well . . . yeah. It's a lot easier to badger and harass the cook to get "a little teeny slice of nut bread and a cup of coffee to hold me over until dinner is ready" if you're actually in the kitchen.
Otherwise Dave, all of your other advice and observations are exactly spot on.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Yep. My railroad for my enjoyment. My staging is hidden at mainline height on some adjacent shelving. I have eight lanes of assembled trains to run through my layout. Various passenger trains and I like the look of unit trains like tanker cars, containers, auto haulers etc. There are no auto plants, big passenger stations, mines or other space eaters on the layout. Just smaller stations and industry. I enjoy the trains running through the scenery on their way to someplace else. I can change eras just by swapping out automobiles on the layout as all the buildings are pretty cross generational. A true tourist railroad. I can provide a little different look everytime visitors come by.
Lastspikemike...Ideal height for staging is a lot lower than ideal height for viewing. Putting staging at viewing height just uses up very valuable scenicked layout space. Why do that to yourself?...
As has been mentioned several times, staging is "elsewhere" and its purpose is to be the "elsewhere " from-which, or to-which trains come or go.While I can run part of my layout as a continuous loop around the room for the entertainment of visitors, it's been built as a point-to-point operation, with five origin/destination points. To model those points with structures and scenery defeats their purpose, as I want easy access to manually move rolling stock on or off the layout.Locomotives stay on the layout unless they require service, and I have three areas on-layout where they can be turned, as needed, so no need to handle them manually. As for viewing height, it's whatever height I might choose for viewing, whether on my knees or on a rolling office chair here...
...or standing on the floor or on a step-stool here...
...or here...
Even my youngest grandchild, at 5, knows that staging is where the trains originate and terminate, and everywhere else is where it's fun to watch them running.
LastspikemikeCombined with the other controversial area of double decking a layout the difficulty with dedicated staging becomes more clear for me. The idea of hidden tracks doesn't make any sense.
There is nothing controversial about staging. People build the layout that will make them happy.
ATLANTIC CENTRALEverybody has different goals for this hobby.
That is it in a nutshell. If your goal requires staging, and you have limited room, a helix could be the soultion.
This world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you might not be right for some.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Lastspikemike This thread certainly describes well the part about staging I don't understand. Combined with the other controversial area of double decking a layout the difficulty with dedicated staging becomes more clear for me. The idea of hidden tracks doesn't make any sense. We all know where the tracks are. Hiding staging behind a screen or after a tunnel entrance can't possibly add anything to the overall illusion. Having "staging" at layout level just a regular visible part of the layout and fully scenicked and integrated is the only rational thing to do with it. Bearing in mind the whole process of model railroading is not rational but theatrical. Destinations, distance, speed, details are all easily handled by the imagination and must be whether you realize you do this or not. Viewing model trains improves at higher elevations than traditional train tables were set at. Table height is just too low (unless you're five) except when handling the cars and locomotives. Ideal height for staging is a lot lower than ideal height for viewing. Putting staging at viewing height just uses up very valuable scenicked layout space. Why do that to yourself?
This thread certainly describes well the part about staging I don't understand.
Combined with the other controversial area of double decking a layout the difficulty with dedicated staging becomes more clear for me.
The idea of hidden tracks doesn't make any sense. We all know where the tracks are. Hiding staging behind a screen or after a tunnel entrance can't possibly add anything to the overall illusion. Having "staging" at layout level just a regular visible part of the layout and fully scenicked and integrated is the only rational thing to do with it. Bearing in mind the whole process of model railroading is not rational but theatrical.
Destinations, distance, speed, details are all easily handled by the imagination and must be whether you realize you do this or not.
Viewing model trains improves at higher elevations than traditional train tables were set at. Table height is just too low (unless you're five) except when handling the cars and locomotives.
Ideal height for staging is a lot lower than ideal height for viewing.
Putting staging at viewing height just uses up very valuable scenicked layout space.
Why do that to yourself?
Well Mike, if you don't get, or don't like it, don't do it.
It does not use up my scenery space, I have scenery and structures over top of my staging tracks, without making them so dramaticly lower than other trackage that I need a helix or "second deck", in fact some staging tracks are higher than some visible tracks.
I tried the high bench work thing, I did not like it. To each their own.
I don't need my staging tracks down low or fully accessible, they are storage for trains that are off stage. I do not do a bunch of 5 finger switching of trains in staging. They get made up in advance of operating sessions out on the visible yard, then they get parked.
Like Dave said, you answered your own question, if it's not for you, fine.
Everybody has different goals for this hobby.
Seems to me a lot of people these days do not understand the idea of fluid track elevations on a model train layout.
I've been rethinking a staging track, or two, for the last year. Just haven't figured out how I would do it.
I didn't have the space when building the layout, on the end of the basement, but I could rearrange some shelving, move things around, and possibly have 2 tracks along one wall. That would be enough for my small layout.
My trains are usually 15 to 20 cars long, and I'd want the tracks to form a wye where they leave the layout, so I could pull a train out, in either direction, and, I wouldn't have to add scenery to any of this, just bare track on a bare bench top.
Of course if I did build this, it would be a one ended afair, so I would have to back the trains on the staging, or, I suppose I could pull the train in, remove the loco and put it back on the other end. Thinking out loud here.
What I do now, after a train has set out and picked up cars from the interchange track, I park the train out of sight on my hidden track, and then run the switcher, to distribute the cars.
Before I leave the layout for the night, I pull the train out of the hidden area, so I don't forget it's parked there, when I go back to the layout, which has happened on an occasion, or, possibly two.
Decision decisions, by the time I pull this off, it will be time to dismantle the layout for a move to a house without so many stairs!
Mike.
My You Tube
The idea of hidden tracks doesn't make any sense. We all know where the tracks are. Hiding staging behind a screen or after a tunnel entrance can't possibly add anything to the overall illusion.
Hold that thought.
Bearing in mind the whole process of model railroading is not rational but theatrical.
There you just answered your own question. If you have ever been to an actual theater, there is a "backstage". The area behind and to the sides of the stage where actors go when they are no performing, where sets and props not being used in the current scene are stored and where actors go when they exit the current scene. Its the origin of the phrase, "waiting in the wings".
Model railroad staging is EXACTLY the same thing. It is where the trains go when not on stage. Just like actor's dressing rooms are not on the stage.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My staging tracks are on the lower level and all trains head up or down via a two track helix.
I have 2 sets of staging yard tracks. First one is my South Staging all staged trains head out in an east direction...
This is my North Staging and trains head out west and proceed up the helix.
This is my freight yard. It has a double ladder and can be accessed from both ends. During my operating sessions, once the dispatcher routes the train to the yard limits, the yardmaster takes control and will route the train into the yard...
Staging is just what it means, at least to me and everyone that operates my layout. When we have the next op session, trains are already in place and each engineer has a card with their job.
Been working well for me and my friends...
Hope this helps...
Neal
SeeYou190 Lastspikemike So it makes sense to fit a staging "layout" on a different level to the main operating level. If you have space for a modest helix or two. I had a helix on my third layout going to staging, and my friend Randy had one on his NORFOLK SOUTHERN layout. I will never have another helix to staging. My next layout will have staging behind the backdrop at layout level. -Kevin
Lastspikemike So it makes sense to fit a staging "layout" on a different level to the main operating level. If you have space for a modest helix or two.
I had a helix on my third layout going to staging, and my friend Randy had one on his NORFOLK SOUTHERN layout.
I will never have another helix to staging. My next layout will have staging behind the backdrop at layout level.
Same here. If one looks at my plan, some staging is below other trackwork, but it gets there without a helix. Most staging is behind/under rear scenery at the same basic level as the rest of the layout.
This is particularly important because there are cutoff tracks that connect the staging to the mainline at various places to simulate various connections to the outside world, not just at the ends of the visible mainline.
I used simple one turn helixes to change elevation and increase the illusion of distance on the visible part of the layout, but based on past experiance I would not use a long multi turn helix to connect levels for hidden staging or a multi deck layout.
Built one multi deck layout, never going there again.
My scenes are deep, with 4' deep benchwork being typical. Visible trackage is near the front, staging trackage is behind or under rear scenic features/structures.
Access is provided various ways, but benchwork is all strong enough to support me. So leaning or climbing on benchwork is not an issue when required.
No foam construction......
Having done this before, I know how to build a layout that can be accessed from lift outs, rear aisles, and overhead work platforms.
I am simply not satisfied with the look of the 2' deep scene idea that is popular today.
My very first layout was 5' deep and effectively 22' feet long with hidden staging in the rear at layout level, accessed by a rear aisle, hidden by a mountain - that was in 1968 - staging is not a new idea for me.
LastspikemikeSo it makes sense to fit a staging "layout" on a different level to the main operating level. If you have space for a modest helix or two.
mbinsewi I think the term "staging yard" is a model railroad thing. I don't have a "staging yard" or "track". I make up a train as I want it to be, and when I'm done with that train, I take it apart and make up a different one, usually going in the opposite direction. Cars that are on the layout for the different industries arrive on one of these trains, and after switching, the "empties" or "loads" leave on one of these trains. I'm a lone operator, works fine for me. Mike.
I think the term "staging yard" is a model railroad thing.
I don't have a "staging yard" or "track". I make up a train as I want it to be, and when I'm done with that train, I take it apart and make up a different one, usually going in the opposite direction.
Cars that are on the layout for the different industries arrive on one of these trains, and after switching, the "empties" or "loads" leave on one of these trains.
I'm a lone operator, works fine for me.
Mike, nothing wrong with that, we all figure out what works for us. I like all three, lone wolf running, display running for "model rail fanning" and operations sessions with a group. So I designed the kayout to support all three.
A big issue for me, even just running alone, is I prefer to minimize the handling of equipment.
So being able to "store" lots of already made up trains is a big plus for me even without operation session considerations.
The new layout will stage about 30 trains, and store most or all of my locomotives not already in use on those trains. Believe it or not, I don't have more equipment than the layout requires.
mbinsewi I think the term "staging yard" is a model railroad thing.
It's ABSOLUTELY a model railroad thing. It represents the rest of the world "beyond the basement".
Making up a train of random cars in your yard is perfectly well and good, but it's hardly realistic. For those that like to actually model realistic ops (and I know that's not everyone) then cars need logical places to go to and from.
Staging is used differently on each layout, and whether or not to include a yard on the layout is up to you.
My layouts:
STRATTON AND GILLETTE #1 in N scale: No staging yards. three track yard on the layout. At this point in my life I could not afford enough locomotives for the visible part of the layoue.
SGRR #2 in N scale: Two huge staging yards representing points East and West beyond the layout. There was also a massive double ended classification yard on the layout.
SGRR #3 in N scale: One staging yard beneath the layout on a helix. The plan was to expand the layout with a yard and another staging yard, but this never happened.
SGRR #4 in HO scale: No staging yard, one storage track on the layout. I had a fold-down "fiddle track" for getting trains on and off the layout.
SGRR #5 in HO scale: Three hidden staging tracks in a tunnel, and a three track yard on the layout.
SGRR #6 in HO scale (planned): 14 staging tracks and a four track yard on the layout.
cv_acr I think it's helpful to not think of staging "yards" as yards at all... If the model railroad is a theatre stage, and trains are the actors, then "staging" is the wings backstage where the actors go when they're not in a scene. There are no technical requirements for staging other than "parking space for trains" - it's not a "working" yard. Staging can just be a single track to allow a train to leave the layout. A "real" yard, modelled on the layout, will have all the features and functions of a yard - for whatever that yard is required to do.
I think it's helpful to not think of staging "yards" as yards at all...
If the model railroad is a theatre stage, and trains are the actors, then "staging" is the wings backstage where the actors go when they're not in a scene.
There are no technical requirements for staging other than "parking space for trains" - it's not a "working" yard. Staging can just be a single track to allow a train to leave the layout.
A "real" yard, modelled on the layout, will have all the features and functions of a yard - for whatever that yard is required to do.
Ok, agreed, they are not yards in a railroad sense and they need not look like yards. If you look at my track plan above, many of the staging tracks are more like passing sidings spread out along the hidden portion of the mainline. That portion of the mainline exists just for that purpose, and it was intentional to decentralize the staging.
And west and east are purposely separated to minimize the complexity of hidden movements, which will be monitored by both detection and cameras.
One thing for me that distinguishes staging yards from 'regular' yards is the presence or the absence of yard leads. In general. Sure, some regular (visible, active) yards don't have any leads (due to space restrictions or simply poor planning) and some staging (hidden, passive) yards are beehives of activity.
A staging 'yard' can be as simple as a single passing siding. Visible, partly visible, hidden behind a clump of trees or buildings or ridges, or passing through a tunnel and subducting under the layout entirely. And a single passing siding can easily grow into a dually; or, add a ladder or a throat and pretty soon you end up with Bailey Yard Under the Lindens.
Sheldon's Atlantic Central is a good example . . . Potomac City Yard has adequate leads on both the east- and west ends, enabling full workability. None of his staging yards, as extensive as they are, has any lead at all.
To expand on Dave's comments, many layouts years ago tried to model both "ends" of a line, requiring two yards, two engine terminals, two of everything as well as industries to serve.
Staging opens up the idea of only modeling one yard, one engine terminal, one major passenger terminal, leaving more room for industries and open mainline running.
My plan shown above does this, and as Dave described, much of the staging is thru staging. While the mainline is continuous the layout functions as point to point for operations. Or, including my wye junction and stub end staging, point to point to point.
One of my major goals is to only model most features one time and think of the visible layout in terms of a relatively short distance from end to end, no more than 50 or 75 miles, maybe less.
My staging is designed to be partly passive with the option of the stub end staging being active. But, the more staging you have, the less need there is for active staging.
Including trains that can be logically staged on the visible part of the layout, I will be able to stage over 30 trains. It is likely only passenger trains would be "recycled" during a single operating session.
Staging is easier to understand, and seems less strange, if it is compared to what layout design was like before the concept of staging (or holding tracks, as they were initially called, going back at least as far as Linn Westcott's famous "If I Had a Million" track plan of the early 1950s).
The old style layout was more or less a self contained universe. Any train that appeared on the layout was a train made up and classified on that layout's yard; any car on that layout was there to serve an industry that was on the layout. Any locomotive on the layout was serviced at the terminal/facility on that layout. It was as if every layout was an island. Where did the off road freight cars come from and go to? What trains handled purely bridge traffic? Did every passenger have to arrive and depart from depots that were actually on the layout itself (and thus a short walk away from each other)? Nobody gave that much thought. So much of a layout was taken up by yard or yards, or engine facilities, that that is why industrial buildings tended to be laughably tiny - including commercial kits.
Staging opened up the possibility of devoting the layout track plan to the money making parts of railroading -- the yards and engine facilities were that-a-way or this-a-way and didn't have to be modeled. All those railroads that were the source of off-road freight cars were similarly that-a-way or this-a-way.
Staging also opened up the ability to have a track plan that was continuous in appearance, but point to point in actual operation. Many track plans featured the same staging yard as being the extreme east end and extreme west end of the same railroad. Once a train arrived in staging it was done for that sessions but was ready to go for the next one.
A refinement on that form of staging -- often called "passive" staging -- is the "active" staging where the staging yard functions very much as a classification yard, but it isn't a modeled classification yard. An operator of the active staging yard classifies manually, having some cars leave the layout and others placed into new trains. Dr. Wayne describes something very like that. Some go further and add or remove motive power as well. A friend who is a prototype modeler with very delicate equipment uses a series of cassettes to add or remove cars from the layout, so it is manual in the sense a switcher isn't doing the work, but the cars and/or locomotives are not touched by hands. In a prior iteration of his operating scheme (he now uses JMRI) every car taken off the layout had its car card put at the front of the index box, and the last car card in the box would be taken out, so the number of cars taken off the layout never changed. This introduced an element of pure chance into the car population on the layout and sometimes it didn't work out as well as you'd hope (all these tank cars with no place to go!), but it did allow the usual extreme surplus of rolling stock to be cycled on and off the layout. Sometimes actual years would go by before a car would be back on the layout, which was just fine. He has plenty.
My own preference is for "active" staging which is out of sight of those in the main layout room, and by active I also prefer means of getting cars off the layout and a fresh supply coming on the layout. Rrebell's idea of a rail barge or car ferry can accomplish that too.
I have a different type of staging yard. I have a port with carfloat and use this as staging as I can change out the floats.
dehusmanAs others have mentioned, a staging yard represents the rest of the US rail network beyond your layout.
I would say that it represents the rest of the North American network or rail lines.
When I was working, we got railcars in from several american locations, and shipped to others.
ChrisVA Sheldon, a side question. What type of software used for creating those track plan schematics?Thanks!
Sheldon, a side question. What type of software used for creating those track plan schematics?Thanks!
It is my layout, and I designed it on paper, but I can't take credit for the great CAD drawing posted here. One of our forum members here, Robert Petrick, took my drawing and created what you see.
I am an old school hand draftsman by original training, I have a little bit of CAD experiance, Robert is a CAD master!
I toyed with some of the model track plan softwares years ago and did not like them, but that's me.
So to answer your question directly Robert did not use one of those "model train track plan" software packages, he used full blown engineering CAD software.
My old club's layout has a large six track main yard about 15' long and a slightly smaller five track staging yard about 10' long. The staging yard is off to the side of the layout and was primarily intended to be used for putting cars onto the rails. There are numerous storage shelves under the staging track where the boxes can be stored while the cars are on the layout. Both yards are visible and both yards are sceniced.
Based on my observations while I was still with the club, both yards were constantly active. There would be at least two guys running trains in each of the yards at any given time. In other words, the yards were well worth the space that they took up. Recognise that I am talking about a club layout where the goal was to allow as many operators on the tracks as was possible.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!