HarrisonAlso, one more question, should I put something down under the foam (plywood, MDF, OSB, etc), or is foam enough?
If the 2 inch thick foam has support from a cross-member every 18 inches or so, you should not need any more support...
However, having 1/2" plywood on the bottom can make securing wires and mounting Tortoise switch machines easier, if you ar planning on using these.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Thanks for the tons of information (although some of it is comflicting... ). I believe I will use 2-inch foam on top of frame benchwork, and in sections I need to go below 2 inches (the Saranac River) I will make the benchwork lower and build things up with aditional layers of foam. Let me know how this plan sounds.
Also, one more question, should I put something down under the foam (plywood, MDF, OSB, etc), or is foam enough?
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
jjdamnitWhen I was looking for a base for my "new" railroad I went to what I felt comfortable with- -MDF. Boy was I wrong in that choice!
I built the shell of my paint booth from MDF, and it was a good choice. However, I would never use it for a layout.
Sheldon used OSB with success.
I am a believer in high-grade 3/4" plywood for subroadbed.
Yes, use the L-girders and add 1x3 pieces across the top every two feet to hold the foam. Having the space allows you to run wiring without any issues. I like the layout and can't wait to see further progress!
Hello All,
JaBearWhile I raised my eyebrow at your use of 5/8 MDF, overall, I think yours is a worthy and useful appraisal.
Ja Bear, thank you for your kind feedback.
The reasoning behind using 5/8-inch MDF was partially because of cost and partially out of remembrance.
My first pike, back in the early 1970s, was a slab of MDF supported by two massive sawhorses made from 4"x4"s with three 2"x4" stringers to prevent sagging.
Weight was no issue as this was set up in my parent's attic that had been converted to one big room.
When I was looking for a base for my "new" railroad I went to what I felt comfortable with- -MDF.
Boy was I wrong in that choice!
As with all our postings we hope to educate others as to our mistakes and pitfalls to make this great hobby less frustrating for the uninitiated.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnitIn past posts I have been accused of, "spreading false information" so I didn't want to comment on something I have no experience with.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
riogrande5761JJ left out OSB...
Yes, I did because I have no personal experience with that particular material for building a layout.
Also, the OP didn't list it as a possible material for use.
In past posts I have been accused of, "spreading false information" so I didn't want to comment on something I have no experience with.
I am building an extension to my layout and am trying some new techniques. The extension is mostly just 2' x 8' free standing modules, bolted together. I am building the top as just a box frame of 1x4 lumber. I found some material at HD in the firewood department that is listed as being exterior trim boards. It is wood of some kind, finger jointed, no knots and primed all over in gray. It is smooth on 3 sides. It is straight and might remain that way being primed and finger jointed. Not expensive either.
I rabbeted the box all around and dropped in a piece of 7/16 OSB, smooth side down such that the OSB is flush with the top of the surrounding rails. I glued that in place. That part is extremely sturdy. Don't let anyone tell you that OSB is not good for this application. It's strong enough so that I don't feel any need to put cross beams under the OSB. I painted the bottom of the OSB with white primer just to lighten it up under there.
Pink foam goes on top, screwed to the OSB. Because I have the OSB underneath, I can cut ditches and streams into the foam without worrying about its structural strength.
I had a bad experience with pink foam shrinkage in the past. It buckled my track. So this time I am cutting saw kerfs across the foam, nearly all the way through, leaving about 1/4 inch uncut. I'm cutting from the bottom side so the top will remain smooth. This is an experiment. I expect that it will limit the effect of any shrinkage to small, manageable and counteractive increments. I haven't cut it yet but I think I will cut it every foot (7 kerfs across the 8 foot length).
george
Edgewood, WA
FRRYKid Even though you do have the miter saw, I still would think about straightening out a couple sections of the framework in your plan. The two in question are the right hand side of the section with Dock Street and the left hand side with S. Junction Road. Assembling 45 degree corners and 90s are not too hard but if you're attaching benchwork with screws, the odd angles would make driving the screws a bit of a challenge IMO.
Even though you do have the miter saw, I still would think about straightening out a couple sections of the framework in your plan. The two in question are the right hand side of the section with Dock Street and the left hand side with S. Junction Road. Assembling 45 degree corners and 90s are not too hard but if you're attaching benchwork with screws, the odd angles would make driving the screws a bit of a challenge IMO.
Good point. A 45 degree angle isn't too bad if you predrill the screwholes (and have a proper clamp to hold it), but those oddball angles - square that off, make the root of the peninsula a 90, and then when you put fascia on it, curve the fascia so it has a nice curved appearance even if the 'bones' behind are simply square joints. Easy enough to do if the fascia is made with a bendable material like Masonite or whatever equivalent material they have in your local stores - the stuff I've been getting, Lowes just labels as 'hardboard'
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
JJ left out OSB, which comes in varying thicknesses and 4x8 sheets. I've been using it on all my layouts and it's worked very well and is cheaper than plywood and generally is good and flat.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Thanks Bear and JJ, that helps a lot!
Harrison...it looks like I have to choose between plywood, foam, MDF, and homasote.
Some personal thoughts* on each material you have listed:
An old standard in model railroad building. Can be heavy depending on the thickness. Unless you are buying Marine Grade relatively inexpensive. Easy to work with. Can be ripped into board lengths and used for open grid and/or L-girder benchwork. Amplifies track noise if no roadbed- -cork, foam, or Homasote®- -used. Holds track nails extremely well.
Lightweight and less susceptible to humidity than wood or pressed paper (Homasote®). Inexpensive when used alone. Open grid benchwork recommended for support. An underlayment of plywood might be necessary depending on the thickness of the foam and grid spacing of benchwork. Easy to cut but produces "foam dust" which can get messy if cut or formed indoors. Sound deadening properties even when no roadbed is used. Does not hold track nails well.
Heavy for its thickness compared to plywood. Inexpensive compared to plywood of similar thickness. Edges chip or fray easily. Susceptible to humidity and temperature changes if not sealed. Requires more robust support than plywood or foam due to weight per square foot. Track sound transmission between foam and plywood when used without roadbed. Holds track nails extremely well.
Comparable weight to plywood. Unknown comparable cost to other materials listed. Extremely susceptible to moisture and humidity. Turns to mush when comes in contact with water. Produces a fine dust when cut and can produce frayed edges. Similar sound-absorbing properties to foam when used without roadbed. Holds track nails well.
(*These are my personal thoughts, observations, and opinions based on my experience with these materials. I don't care if you disagree or have other opinions, these are mine.)
I began my most recent 4'x8' pike on a piece of 5/8-inch MDF.
On top of this I used 2-inch Blue Foam along with foam roadbed.
This pike sits on top of the bed in the computer-/spare bed-/train-room.
It was heavy and required an external frame of Luan plywood to avoid sagging.
This produced a 4'x8' base that weighed over 100-lbs!
Recently I ditched the MDF for 1"x4" open grid benchwork with 1/4-inch plywood supporting the 2-inch foam base. The grid spacing is 24- x 32-inches.
This configuration has reduced the weight of the pike considerably.
Thanks for all the info, so it looks like I have to choose between plywood, foam, MDF, and homasote.
Which one of these is cheapest?
Which one is easiest to work with?
Thanks for the help. Also, here is a final (ish) trackplan. I have not finished planning the GP part along the wall, but I will be building the yard area first (basically from start to at least track and wiring) so I have some time to finish planning that.
As for tools, my dad and brothers hobbies are woodworking, so we have a drill press, table saw, chop (miter) saw, etc.
Proper painting/sealing makes a huge difference. I had a peice of homasote that was in my Mom's garage for years. Didn't get directly wet, but the end that sat on the concrete floor had absorbed moisture and was a big mushy mess. Our neighbor built a playhouse for his kids in the late 50's or early 60's out of all homasote on framing - not only did it survive for at least 30 years, it was also moved at least once from one corner of their yard to another. Outdoors. 4 seasons. It did get repainted a couple of times - pretty sure he was using typical exterior grade house paint. Leave a sheet of unfinished homasote out and go take a look after the first rainstorm - ick! But properly finished - no problem.
I'll conceed I'm a little to the party but here are my thoughts:
1) As to the door vs. regular benchwork question: I have both on mine. The main yard is built with two old hollow core doors that are older than I am. I also have conventional sections with plywood. Just a matter of lining the tops of the sections properly and sizing the legs. Wiring is a little more difficult with the door but not too hard.
2) Get yourself a good set of woodworking tools. Square, saw (whether hand or power), a miter box if you get the hand saw, power drill, drill bits, jig saw (as you're talking about cookie cutter benchwork) and most importantly a good set of framing clamps. They hold your framing at 90 degree angles to keep everything square. Also consider some 6" C Clamps. Nice when holding sections together for attaching them.
3) I fully agree with the 1x4s for framing. When I first starting railroading, I was in a modular railroad club that used the NMRA HO modules standard with 1x4s. I have used that idea with any other benchwork I have built. One of those old modules is still in use in my current layout. (About 30 years old.) May be a headache, but if you can't get good grade 1x4s, tell your lumber yard that you want to pick the boards. (I have small town yards and they are very good about it.) I have come across some that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy as they were warped, bowed and twisted like crazy. Don't even get me started on 2x2s. (A whole additional story on that one.)
4) Going back to the modules, consider using carriage bolts and some sort of levelers on your legs. The carriage bolts will give a resonably smooth surface and allow for easy disassembly for moving. The levelers allow for you to compensate for uneven floors. I needed them when I started my current layout in my former apartment. (I now have a house with a railroad room/garage. I still use them in there as well although not as bad.) The floor had a major slope to it. (1 1/2" to 2" by one wall. I needed 5/16" levelers to have enough play.) They allow me to have a level layout. When you drill and attach the legs make sure you mark which leg goes to which set of holes. Makes it a lot easier to reassemble later.
The Milwaukee Road WarriorIsn't MDF especially susceptible to humidity, and can be destroyed by moisture or if it gets wet
Isn't MDF especially susceptible to humidity, and can be destroyed by moisture or if it gets wet? I could be wrong, I just seem to remember learning about it (and OSB) early-on when I was getting back into the hobby and wrote them off for some reason like that..
Andy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
Harrison Considering I will want to add a few things below track level (the lake along the yard and the Saranac River), which should I use, plywood (cookie-cutter) or foam?
MDF!!! Sorry Harrison I should behave myself; I’d go for dimensional ply.
Thanks for all the info everyone, it sounds like I will probably use frame benchwork with either foam or plywood on top. Now I just need to decide between plywood and foam... Considering I will want to add a few things below track level (the lake along the yard and the Saranac River), which should I use, plywood (cookie-cutter) or foam?
I built two layouts with foam. The first one was bacis open benchwork, just rectangular boxes 2x8, a pair of 8 foor long 1x4s for the long sides, and then another one cut to 4 pieces for crossmembers. 2' centers. On top of that I glued 2" thick foam, and it was perfectly fine, even to lean on (standing on it, no). For that one, I installed Tortoises from the top, using a method I found online that was used by some Freemo group. It worked well, but was kind of messy, routing out the opening for the Tortoise, holding the Dremel in oen hand and the shop vac hose in the other. As an experiment I took a spare Tortoise and glued it right to the bottom of the foam witht he same adhesive caulk I was using for the track and roadbed. After holding it in place 5-10 minutes, it held itself. Once the caulk fully cured - I had to hit it VERY hard to knock it off, and the caulk joiint didn;t break - it took a thin layer of the foam with it. So you could potentially attach them on the bottom just like a plywood layout, but it's going to be pretty much permanent.
Second one, my previous layout, was built mostly the same way except the crossmembers were 1x3 so the foam sat down between the 1x4s a little bit. I also used 2 layers of 2" form, and bfore I installed the foam, I attached a sheet of 1/4" plywood to give a palce to screw switch machines and cable ties and so forth to. It was 2 layers of foam only because I originally started out making a small switching module where I would need more than 2" from the track on top to the bottom, this way I could carve away the entire top layer of foam and then down in to the second layer to get what I needed for the feature I wanted (a coal dealer where the track was up high, and the actual yard and storage bins were down at the street level below, where the street passed under a bridge on the railroad). Since I already had the one built when I moved to a larger place, I just built the rest the same way rather than scrap it and start over.
Most lumber and wood (and plywood) these days is bought at big box type home improvements stores that offer it for sale indoors. My first ever layout was back when the local lumberyard stored stuff outside (under cover, ideally) but it was still damp from the outside world. Having said that, it was higher quality stuff than just about anything I see for sale today.
Standard advice back then was to buy your wood and lumber and plywood well enough in advance that it had time to get accustomed to your indoor situation, basement or whatever.
Even though the materials for my current layout were purchased at stores where they were stored indoors (at least when I bought them they were - they clearly did store wood in unheated open sheds out back) I did take the precaution of letting the wood go through a change of seasons in my basement, except for the very first few benchwork dominos where I just couldn't wait to get going. I think that remains good advice regardless of source of wood. How it is stored also matters: you don't want to create new warpage by leaning things. Store it flat.
Looking at the OP's track plan I wondered about the small peninsulas that stick out and more particularly about just how much aisle space they have between them. It needs to be practical access.
Dave Nelson
I use square box builds to start with and put loose foam on top, with lots of overhang, draw in layout and add any wood needed to the frame for support and then cut out the foam and glue down. I use bead type foam on mine, no shrinkage except when first manufactured.
The foamboard I use is Owens-Corning XPS Foamular 150. It won't disintegrate or otherwise breakdown. The only possible issue I've heard raised is the flammability issue, but extra care in wiring ought to avoid that (I hope lol).
I've also seen it said that there may be very slight shrinkage in the foamboard over an extended period of time - many years. But basically, the XPS is immune to climate/humidity issues, doesn't flake off or break, and is very sturdy. (The 150 or 250 number is supposedly the psi that the foamboard will handle.)
The white expanded polystyrene EPS foam breaks into small bits pretty quickly and is not an acceptable material.
I find it fascinating the use of foam on layouts in the USA/Canada. Here in the UK foam is a no-no as it begins to disintegrate within a year.
Not technically-minded I do not know the make-up of foam, but our foam must be different to yours.
An interesting plan, Harrison. Watching with interest.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Thanks for the info, I'm busy today but will get back to everyone later with some more questions.
Not at all Harrison.
The clear select Pine for the 1x4 framing is the best choice.
The only thing I was saying is, ...If one has a table saw and can rip plywood for the framing members. The 90 degree layers of wood grain opposing each other in the plywood layers, stays truly straight forever.
Overkill though. The premium 1x4's will be just fine.
TF