I'd probably start on the North wall unless those are going to be code 70 too.
I haven't built a lot of layouts, but one thing I do know. We need a better title to make this thread standout from all the other layout build threads that will come along.
I was going to suggest Randy's Layout Build but there was a guy a couple years ago who put his name in every thread he started and that seemed strange. How about:
Reading East Penn Layout Build ?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
My best advice to start witht he part you know you will enjoy the least.
Your enthusiasm will probably never be as high as when you start the project, so I know I am more likely to get the un-fun part complete if I do it first.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The most un-fun part will probably be a 2 level moveable section in front of the furnace and water heater, but I do kind of need the benchwork to either side to be there as anchor points for the moveable part.
The good news is, it has to be moveable but not in the sense of a swing gate that is used every time you need to walk in and out of th elayout room. More like, furnace broke, they are coming tomorrow to mput in a new one. I had been thinking of hinging it and having it on heavy duty casters to just swing away, but in truth it doesn't have to do that. I just need to be able to do something liek slide back the rail joiners at either end (2 tracks in on the lower level and 3 tracks out on the lower level, since the AD track starts there, probably just a simple 2 main tracks on the upper deck), unplug some electrical connections, and then lift and move it. It will be narrow and completely freestanding, so I don't anticipate much weight.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BigDaddy I'd probably start on the North wall unless those are going to be code 70 too. I haven't built a lot of layouts, but one thing I do know. We need a better title to make this thread standout from all the other layout build threads that will come along. I was going to suggest Randy's Layout Build but there was a guy a couple years ago who put his name in every thread he started and that seemed strange. How about: Reading East Penn Layout Build ?
Well, something - while I'm not changing my public domain anme, any resemblence of any part of my layout to the actual East Penn Branch of the Reading is purely coincidental. So I'm not sure that's an accurate title to use either.
I got it, editing after I post this.
If I was to build again, and have this space, finished and ready, I would do the bench work, all around, so when I started laying track, my 1st goal would be to get a continous main line, running. And then proceed from there.
Mike.
My You Tube
If only I weren;t a touch (ha!) ADD... Even on my previous layout which was much smaller, I only built about 1/4 of the benchwork before I started putting down track and getting trains running. Then I added another 8 foot section, put track on that, until I got all the way around, then I filled in some of the sidings and things (most of the time, I put the turnout in place when laying the main, but didn;t finish the roadbed or track for the siding).
It's just the way I work. Probably not the most ideal, because once a train can run, I run trains as much as extend the layout. Ormaybe I will shove somethign off the free end which will prompt me to keep up with the benchwork. I did that 2 layouts ago, just a small 8x12 donut but I started running trains on that before I had all 4 sections of benchwork built. After shoving 3 cars to the floor, I finished the benchwork. Good thing is, they were Kato covered hopper kits, they use some odd engineering plastic, so all that happened is I turned them back into kits. ANd lost a couple of Kadee knuckle springs.
Well, I guess that's the way all of the real railroads started, lay track, run train, lay more track, run train farther,....
Since I like to do the carpentry work, the bench work would proceed rapidly. No promises that I would fall back, and get some track down...
I like the new name to the thread.
I like carpentry work too, but eventually I get tired of sawing lumber. Making strips from sheets of plywood I don;t think I will find too exciting, so I plan to get a truckload, then cut them all up so I have a supply on hand. I MIGHT be able to use the exuse that I have to stop because the shop vac filled up. I certainly can;t say it's because my batteries died - I now have 4 batteries and 2 chargers for my drill, plus an adapter so I can use the new Li-ion packs for the new drill in my old Ni-cad one. No more swapping between drill bit and screwdriver bit. I can drill, swap tools, and drive in the screw.
I may actually find it an enjoyable challenge to make the moveable part.
Hey Randy-
I've been following your recent work. I want to add my congratulations along with everyone else's and offer whatever encouragement I can.
As for where to start . . . I can't say. For me, I built and completed all the benchwork before laying the first strip of cork. I had thought about stopping halfway and putting a temporary return loop closure so that I could run trains, but when I got to that point I was still full of energy and enthusiasm so I just kept going. To me, all of it is fun. I don't look at any task as drudge work. Whatever I am doing, I never lose sight of the big picture and I can always see how things (even small little tiny things) will fit into the overall schema.
So my advice . . . pick a spot, any spot and go from there. Good luck and have fun. And keep us informed.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I just realized I have never had a fully finished dedicated space ready to put a train layout in. I have never walked into a great space and been able to just build a model railroad in there.
The closest I came was my Dream House layout, but the room was never finished. I tried to finish the room as the layout expanded, but that did not work out. I started by installing "temporary" sections of the unfiished areas, but they never got moved to finish the room.
My final layout will start with a finished room also, hopefully within 9 months.
I don't know where I will start.
So after reading this thread about finding that starting spot, do most modelers start with the benchwork? I always thought about doing wall prep (backdrops and power outlets) or ceiling prep (lighting and drop down supports instead of legs) but I never actually do things the way I dreamed it. I always seem to be short on time and money so I just find a way to get trains running and then become disinterested when I begin the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" conversation in my head. Always close enough but never the way I dream it up.........
Rich
2 layouts ago, I didn;t do any prep. I was plannign to make that layout much larger and use all the available space, but other things happened. Initially I DID want to have nice walls and a drop ceiling, but after seeing several layouts where they just painted the poured concrete basement walls, I figured I could just do that and not worry about all the rest. That's why I like seeing a couple of overall shots in layout feature articles, not just all the closeups that show only the modeling work.
Last layout, well, it was in a spare bedroom, so the walls and ceiling were already finished.
This one - I am here for the long haul, and while the basement was already 'finished' (see my basement phase 2 thread, there are soem 'before' pictures at the end), it was poorly done plus the walls were in 3 different paneling patterns, not conducive to being a layout backdrop. So I decided I was going to do it right this time, got the walls refinished, with insualtion now, new drop ceiling, outlets, and since my main breaker box is in the garage on the far wall and it's hard to get wires into the basement, I had a sub panel installed in the basement which still has some breaker slots empty so if I need to add somethign else, I can easily do it myself now.
I am not, as I have said, a linear builder, in that I don't do things in an order like complete all benchwork, then complete all subroadbed, and then complete all track, etc. You of course have to have SOME benchwork before you can lay any track. Backdrop pretty much MUST go before scenery. But apart from dependencies - I tend to do a bit of this, a bit of that as I go along.
Randy,
If you aren't a linear person a double deck is going to require some discipline on your part to keep the enthusiasm high as you build. Of course this is true of any layout that is of any size. Certain parts of the process go much more quickly with a linear approach but do get a bit tedious at times, presenting a challenge to those of us who would rather mix things up than in terms of building processes/ modeling.
in order to facilitate what I am presuming is your style of modeling - moving around from project to project as the mood strikes, I would suggest that you plan and build the bench work for the bottom deck around the entire "north room" all at once as the first step. This will give you a base for the rest of the layout construction and allow you to see the whole foot print in the space before laying track and making decisions about scenery. It shouldn't take you too long to put together the basic frame work. I was able to complete this step on my layout in a couple of days. With help, this can go quickly.
As for your plan: I presume you have a more complete version with deck widths and the foot print of the layout structure in the room? I also presume you have decided on a style of bench work construction: open grid, L girder etc? How the bench work is supported? The deck separation and heights? How the upper deck will be supported?
I also presume that you have done the math on the start points and steepness of the grades if they are not limited to the helix? I also presume you have thought about how you will light the layout and if you will have valences?
I didn't have all this stuff figured out at first but I did have an idea about most of the critical items before starting on the layout construction. I started with my lower staging deck first and the monster rose up from there.
I started running trains on the staging section as soon as the track was laid. Over the last 14 years it has been a balance between working on the layout, running trains and building models and rolling stock. I was able to stay linear for some of the more tedious tasks but now that the structure is pretty close to done, I am much more random about finishing things and what I choose to work on next.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window).
Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals.
Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked.
The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves.
Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool).
rrinker I have pretty much all of that figured out. I should be able to put up benchwork faster than I can haul the wood home (I don't have a monster truck, so I can only take so much at a time, expecially longer stuff which needs to stick in through the back window). Supports for both levels and the top valance will be vertical 2x4s screwed to the studs, with 3/4 plywood brackets for horizontals. Lighting is LED strips, while I don;t have the control program worked out for dimming them and running the RGB strip through a sunrise and sunset, I am using common standard DMX drivers to run the LED strips. If i REALLY had to, i could get a cheap console and manually run the lights, but I did already test a basic computer hookup and it worked. The plan does show the room footprint. I did have the fascia edge outlines, but that was before I made some changes to the plan so that has to be redone. I'm also not redrawing it to accurately reflect that the track will not all run parallel to the wall/fascia like it's drawn - it's just faster to draw straight lines connecting the curves. Grades, other than the helix, are generally going to be cosmetic. With two decks it leaves little room for massive grade changes unless both decks move in more or less lock step, in which case some parts will be too low and some too high - it's already a compromise for a double decker, but I'd rather have the long run. And I calculated time in helix at reasonable speeds, like 30-40 mph, and it's not really that long. I did fool around with various boxes and supports to come up with a workable deck height without placing the upper deck at my absolute maximum (which means a lot of people I know wouldn't be able to see a darn thing without a step stool). --Randy
Awesome!! I figured that you had thought about all this - just didn't see it in the thread.
There is nothing like cutting the first stick of lumber for the new layout. Savor the moment..
Didn't get anything built, but I did get a small load of 2x4s to get started with. I also took some old scraps and made a mock up of one of my brackets, just one level worth. This is with a completely straight piece of 3/4 plywood, not angled down to make it wider at the attachment point witht he vertical, and it seems plenty sturdy. Even before the glue has dried, at 2 foot out (the piece of plywood is 4 feet long - no part of the benchwork will stick out that far), there is pretty much zero vertical deflection and almost no horizonatal deflection either. I'm thinking for the top level, which is just to hold up the lights, nothing will be build on top of it, even a 2 1/2" width might be enough. The piece I used is 3" wide. Certainly for areas of the benchwork that are 18" or less deep. Maybe for the 24" sections I will cut out the more complex shape.
Plus I got the shelving bits for the laundry room, so I have to put those up.
Even if nothing was built, it still sounds like you are making some progress.
Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing.
The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights.
I'd probably start building benchwork on the top left and move along to the right.......
to see if the laundry room still functioned acceptably, would want to know that first and not last after everything else was built.
Then work my way around to the furnace area movable section to provide one anchor point and to visualize how that would work.
Lay all of the track in what I just built.
You would have a nice mix of some long-ish mainline and some switching, so you could run/test different equipment and maybe even get to build some structures or mock ups. Keeps from having to do carpentry exclusively for a while.
- Douglas
rrinker Here's what my mocjup supports look like - there was NO measuring and NO square used to mark anything, it was all eyeballed and screwed together without clamps just to see if it woudl work. ANd if it's sturdy and stable when built this cloppily, imagine if the ends were actually even and measured properly as they will be on the real thing. The horizontal is 24", give or take (mostly give, it's more like 24" from the face of the main vertical 2x4). Leaning on it, does not deflect downward. Pushing it side to side, with my best eddort at holding the vertical 2x4 steady (laying it on the floor and standing on it) results in mo appreciable movement. I'd say this is more than robust enough to hold up even flat areas decked with plywood. Especially since there will be on on every stud, so every 16". The majority of the layout will be narrower than 24" - 18" in most places, and based on how stable it was before I put the second arm and spacer block on, at 18" or less it should only need a single arm. Even in the 24" areas, I doublt I will put double arms for the top cap, which only has to support some thin plywood and some LED strip lights. --Randy
I notice you're using Torx head screws. You get double points for that. Those things are really nice.
The Philips ones don't have the auger tips to cut in without splitting, nor do they have the head that self countersinks. I was surprised it didn't split the ply, I didn't even drill any holes with this test piece. They did rip the veneer but these pieces are cheap Lowe's birch plywood, the veneer layer is so thing people have complained about sanding it right off.
Baby steps - 5 sheets of 3/4" top quality birch plywood just delivered to my house.
Cheaper for a 5x5 sheet of this than for a 2x4 piece of questionable quality from Lowes. ANd delivered.
I still have some things to do in the basement, like get shelves put up, before I can set up to start cutting these sheets into strips. Hopefully I will get to all that this weekend - also have another project, my server is about dead so all the parts for a new one are arriving tomorrow.
Those look like the Spax screws I use. If you put them close to the edge, they will cause a split when the head countersinks. They are still great screws. I've put 2" Spax through an edge board into the end grain of a rib and they grab the end grain well enough to countersink the head without spinning out.
It also looks like you're using Titebond III. I'd recognize that stain anywhere. Good stuff, but I do wish it was a little thicker.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hey Randy,
Structural / mechanical engineer here...
That load distributed across the horizontal section means the back corner of the brace is going to have to react out a lot of load, continuously, for however long the layout is up. What seems very sturdy now may not stay that way, as the fasteners loosen up over time as the wood in the screw holes is "worked" by the loads.
I suggest that a short brace from the horizontal arm to the vertical will mitigate the big moment arm that will otherwise be created. Even just six inces out and six inches down will improve the load carrying characteristics by many times the structure's current ability.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load.
If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical.
It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no.
Just make sure those supports are screwed into the wall studs, should be fine.
My new stud finder, which is way better than the old one (13 sensors!) coupled with the fact that the contractor is super fussy and made sure everything was precisely 16" on center means they absolutely will be. Worked for putting up the shelves last night.
rrinker Zip, zero, nada chance of putting a diagonal brace on there like that. This is a double deck layout, the sort of brace will make a mess of the space between layers. At merely 24", and that only for one part of the layout, witht he joints glues AND screwed, I don;t think it's going anywhere. Not without breaking the wood - it is indeed Titebond III and once set it's stronger than the wood. Maybe it won't handle a 100 pound working load, but then, it doesn't have to. I'm not climbing on this. I'd have to think the forces exerted by HO trains rounds down to effectively nil and can be considered a static load. If it falls down when I have the 24" brackets all up and lay a sheet of plywood across it, you can laugh at me. I'm more worried about the screws holding in the wall studs than I am about the braces pulling loose from the vertical. It may be possible to add support under the lower deck, but the upper deck, no. --Randy
It's not going to fall down when you add the plywood. If it fails, it will most likely be after several years of never-relenting ~85+ in-lbs of torque (I did some simple calculations) applied at the joint by the cantilevered weight of the deck. The glue will lock the top plies of the plywood together very securely, but the inner plies will tend to shear apart over time (plywood is not really desgned to react out shear forces across ply bondaries).
Maybe a simple analogy will help illustrate what I'm saying. You know how wobbly benchwork is when standing on legs that are not diagonally braced, right? Your design is essentially that same thing, just in a different direction. When you add even small diagonal braces to the legs, the structure becomes much more solid.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and certainly not wishing for some form of scale catastrophe down the line. I'm just pointing out the structural mechanics of your braces. Good luck - I hope I'm wrong.
My answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
Like Pruitt, I think it is destined to fail.
Sheldon
Someone here has some the same thing, and had a layout up for some time now. This exact thing is actually in the Koester multi-deck benchwork book - though with one difference, that person build theirs before putting drywall on the walls, so the tie in is to the actual wall stud, not a separate 2x4. Jason SHron has done it using those right angle brackets that I found were most definitely too wobbly, though every 4 feet he does use an oversize plywood bracket, still no diagonal braces though. Upper deck it seems he used shelf breackets sideways - also something I tried and the individual joist was way too wobbly. ANd no diagonals.
WHen I originally put together the test piece, the joists were 4 feet long. Hard to tell, as I should have put the attachment poitn more int he middle of the vertical 2x4 so I could support it better to test, but even at 4 feetout there was no perceptible movement putting a lot of weight on it. Cut back to 2 feet and I can't make it budge. If I had a way to get foces in the right direction with some way to measure said force, I'd love to test it to destruction.
I'm already beyond what I think is reaosnable incorporating 2x4s in a model railroad. Way too much, but the only way to get the attachment area bit enough is to use the 2x4 plus the little nailer block in there. So the plywood is attached over a 9 square inch area, the spacer at the vertical end is glued and screwed to the vertical 2x4 as well. Legs on the bottom ar eno problem to add if required. But you can;t do double deck and have legs and brackets hanging down. There are plenty of double deck layouts built so I don't think I'm even close to blazing new territory here.
I did upper deck brackets for friend and attached them directly to the studs with no drywall in place like you described.
But we made the plywood L shaped with a very tight radius inside the L. That is way different from a connection like you are doing.
I would at least put something like this on the bottom:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825 I've tried those, but I like these on the sides of the 2x4 better. Go up on one side and down on the other.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would at least put something like this on the bottom: https://www.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-8-in-Steel-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace/1000510825
Agreed, that is a good solution as well.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy answer to the upper deck support would involve steel........
I used welded steel brackets for the support of the partial second level of my layout. I payed for the material, and my late brother-in-law cut and welded them to meet my specifications.
They were installed on the face of the drywall, and lag-bolted to the wall studs. I have been atop one section of it to brush-paint rail (it's about 38" deep).
Some of the brackets are about 4' apart, while others are close to 6' apart. The upper deck is 5/8" t&g plywood, on open grid framework - 1"x4" crossmembers on the ends of each section, and 1"x4" along the aisle, with the rear- and intermediate-crossmembers all 1"x2".
With the exception of the bracket at the corner, all of the verticals bolted to the wall are 1.5"x1.5"x 7.25" long, while the crossmembers are 1"x1" and as long as the depth of the layout which they support.
Here are the brackets supporting the upper level on the right-side of the entrance aisleway...
The far end of the open grid is bolted directly to the wall studs, with the distant bracket about 7' further into the room. The one in the foreground, about 6' from the other one, is a compound one, mounted on an outside corner of the room, with a horizontal arm in each direction. The layout here is about 25" deep, and the vertical member bolted to the corner is about 26" long, hidden behind the curved Masonite backdrop. Here's a view if the compound bracket...
The three supports shown here are about 4' apart...
...as are these, on the opposite side of the same aisle...
At the end of this aisle is a section about 9' long and, as mention earlier, about 38" deep. It has no supporting brackets, but is screwed to the wall studs at both ends and along its rear edge. The front edge, where it abuts the bracket-supported sections, is screwed to those sections too. That's the part on which I lay in order to paint the rails of a large curve, well towards the backdrop.
If the wooden brackets that Randy's planning to use are to be screwed to the side of the wall studs, rather than the face, then weld steel ones could be mounted in the same manner, which would avoid have the brackets on the backdrop, as is the case with mine. Depending on the construction of the sections being supported, it certainly wouldn't require brackets on every stud - I'd space them every 4', although I'm pretty sure that if the layout grid is sturdy, 6' (or more) would probably be do-able.
The materials aren't all that expensive, and if the majority of the brackets are similar, I can't imagine that the welding would cost would be prohibitive, either.
Perhaps another option to consider.
Wayne
The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs. Or I could just get metal shelf brackets and screw them to the wall. ANd then notch the backdrop every 16" to go around them like Tony Koester ended up doing. And adding yet another furring strip to stand the backdrop off isn't an option. Using 2z4s for the verticals is already reducing the width by more than I was originally planning for where I was going to use metal brackets to attach the hotizontal to the riser.
The flat angles won't work, the plywood horizontals are attached to the outside of the 2x4. Neither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to - plus the horizontal part would be going into the end grain of plywood.
I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width. So make L shaped plywood pieces. That means careful saber saw cutting of each horizontal piece and a lot of wasted plywood.
I will heep stressing the piece I made. But I still think it's more likely that excess weight will pull the screws out of the wall than actually cause the plywood to break off the 2x4. Or crush the drywall, making the vertical loose on the wall. There is significant attachment area - this is not just stip of plywood screwed to the side of a 2x4. I can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
What some posters have tried to say is that you need what is called a moment connection. To keep the front edge of the cantilever beams from sagging.
Using your photos from a while ago, you can add a steel angle to beef them up without increasing the depth of the upper deck.
Either the one posted by Carl425 or one like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-in-Zinc-Plated-Corner-Brace-15212/202585414
The flat one that carl mentioned would go on both sides of the upright and on both sides of the beam. The one in the link I added would go on the back of the upright and on the top of the beam.
I don't have access to AutoCAD at the moment, so I can't show a quick sketch.
rrinkerNeither would the other style, there's nothing to attach them to
You could glue a 1.5" x 5" piece of plywood below your horizontal on the edge of the 2x4 for the braces to sit on. Attach them with 3.5" #10 screws and they'll be plenty strong.
rrinker I could do like I posted a mockup rendering of in the other thread, which was to have the plywood pieces about 5" tall at the attachment end, with an angle/curve to the 3" width.
This is a good idea. You could even reinforce them with the 5" corner braces above. Cut 8" x 24" pieces of plywood, then make a diagonal cut from the 5" make on one end to the 3" mark on the other. This gives you two pieces with no wasted plywood.
rrinkerI can always add another block of 2x4 stacked up on the existing one to extend the attachment area another 1.5". But since that wouldonly be screwed to the existing block and not all the way through to the vertical, it would be of limited value.
This is also not a bad idea. You can get lag screws 8" long. This would get you all the way into the stud.
One more idea from Tony Koester's book (I think) - he talks about a guy that used framing squares as corner braces.
And... I don't think you'll have an issue with crushing the drywall with 2x4's as long as you're using.
I'm still trying to figure out where any sort of corner angle would go and actual do any good. Into the side of the plywood is good, that would be the flat type. But where does the other end screw into? At that point, the free end would be 3/4" away from the side of the vertical, requiring some sort of 3/4" spacer.
ANd the other type, either on top or underneath, one side would be screwed into the edge of the plywood, which is next to useless because plywood is not great at holding screws into the grain. And the other end - where would that go? This is outside the width of the 2x4, which ALSO places it outside the width od the wall stud. Screwing it into the drywall adds nothing. Lating it over sideways and screwing it into the inside face of the plywood, and then to the vertical - I'm not sure how much that adds either, as an attempt to do that with TWO angles alone on each side of thge horixontal piece of plywood gave extremely poor results. And to stay inside the vertical, the angle piece can only be anout 2" long. The side to the plywood could be as long as the piece of plywood, but then it's just a long lever and the short end won;t hold.
I understand about the moment arm. ANd that's somewhat taken care of by the extra block on the vertical 2x3. The plywood arms are not just attached on one edge all the way at the back, they are secondarily attached to the additional block to give an attachment point away from the main vertical section. Since they are (or rather, will be, the test piece is not accurately measured) contained within the height of the plywood arm they do not interfere with the backdrop attachment.
rrinker The whole idea is to avoid anything that will keep the backdrop from attaching flat to the studs....
I'm well aware of that, Randy, but because you have exposed studs, the vertical portion of a welded backet can be attached to the side of the stud, not to the face of it. That's the same, I think, as you plan to do with the built-up wooden ones.
That way, there's nothing to hinder the installation of the backdrop.
My brackets are bolted to the face of the studs through the drywall, only because I had drywalled the entire room before building the layout.
Adding 6" or 8" steel corner braces to the structure will significantly improve its rigidity, plus they will provide significant sag resistance over time. They'll provide much greater resistance to the cantilevered load, because their fasteners will react out that load over the long legs.
If you're worried about the screws pulling out of the plywood, insert another 2X4 spacer between the plywood pieces and install the brace with nuts and bolts instead of wood screws. Just make sure the plywood holes are not a loose fit for the bolts.
These brackets cost $1.99 (6 inch) or $2.67 (8 inch) each. They're available on-line or in most stores from Home Depot.
Wayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Mark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist.
rrinkerthere are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design.
Put a small piece of the plywood on your 2x3 under the joist to bring the downward leg of the metal brace flush with the joist. Use long enough screws to attach the brace so the reach through the plywood into the 2x3.
rrinkerWayne - there are no exposed studs. All my basement walls are finished with drywall, fully taped and muddled and painted. I'm attaching the layout through the drywall into the studs.
Sorry, Randy, my mistake. I thought that the brackets which you're planning to use seemed overly bulky, which wouldn't matter if they were attached to the sides of the studs, so I obviously was in error.And, at the risk of sounding even dumber, it still seems to me that if they're to be face-mounted on the wall, the weld-up steel ones would be less obtrusive, and fewer would be required. My upper level is plywood on open grid framework made mostly of 1"x2"s - used 1"x4"s on the front only because I wanted something substantial onto which electrical switches and manual control knobs for turnouts could be mounted. Even with much of the upper level over 30" in depth, the spaced-out brackets have not deflected from horizontal even a fraction of an inch, and, working on a stepstool to lay track or do other work, I lean on it often.
I wanted to use strips of 3/4 plywood for the verticals, with some of those angle brackets or similar to mount the hotizontal arm, but after trying a couple different types, they all seemed too flimsy. That's with all attachments going into the faces of the plywood, nothing into the edge. Even one on each side plus one underneath into the edge easily deflected. So then it was either 2x3 or 2x4, and theere's only one grade (the cheap ones) of 2x3 typically available here, whereas I can get a better quality 2x4 than just the basic framing stud (though I still had to pick the pile to get good ones).
Some sort of welded steel could work, as long as it wasn;t too tall in the vertical direction. Lower leve, it could go underneath, totally invisible. For the upper level, it would have to be places above the deck level, to not interfere with the lower level backdrop and, since the upper level will represent a more mountainous area, the scenery at the back will rise up to the backdrop, so something sticking a couple of inches up would not be a problem. I'm guessing with a welded steel support, I would only need screws intot he frame to keep if rom sliding off, not perform actual support, so small screws driven from the horizontal piece of steel into the end grain of the plywood would not be a problem.
I could probably do similar without welding - using performated steel angle, and bolt it together.
Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
rrinker Then again - I took when I have put together and, while I am too out of shape to do a pullup (and definitely not on something that's more waist high instead of over my head), I did have a significant portion of my 300 pound weight hanging off the far end with no problems. With one every 16", that load would be distributed in the real world, should I lean or try to pull myself up by the benchwork.
When ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
rrinkerMark - there are no flat surfaces at 90 degrees in the bracket design. Unless you are suggesting putting the metal brace between the vertical and the plywood, but that then makes all joints screw only, no glue between the vertical and joist. --Randy
Better would be to notch the 2X4 to the depth of the plywood, but that's more work.
Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today.
Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each.
Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks.
I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts.
mbinsewiWhen ever I build something, including the benchwork/storage structure that my lay out sits on top of, I build it like it's going to be supporting a concrete pour. Just a habit of mine.
I'm in the same boat Mike!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinker Milestone! First stick of benchwork went up today. Two, actually. Since they are approximately half an 8' 2x4 each. Something actually got done. Yay! I have enough to finish this wall, then I will have to go back and buy more 2x4s. And cut a gazillion space blocks. I started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
Awesome!! The layout is official.
rrinkerI started on the wall that will have the town. I won't be able to do much more than put the main line through, still waiting on Peco to release their Code 70 turnouts. --Randy
What with the ongoing pandemic, you may be in for quite a wait for those Peco turnouts (I hope not).
I may be waiting a while for more wood - Lowes and Home Depot both cut back hours.
The Peco Code 70 is already well past due - I may end up having to just use Code 83 on lowered roadbed instead of lowered roadbed AND lighter rail.
First things first, more 2x4s, a few sheets of MDF cut to 16" widths, drywall tape and mud, primer, and blue paint.
Put a few more uprights in place. Now that I have the swing of it, they are going up faster. Plus I assembly-lined it, measured all of them, then cut them all, then drilled all the pilot holes, then hung them.
I plan to see about Lowes tomorrow, I need more 2x4s and screws, and some MDF, tape, and mud so I can put up the backdrop panels.
Moving right along. Made a trip to Lowes today, got more 2x4s, enough to finish the town side, the back wall, and the short wall before the helix. Also some 5 pound packs of screws, I only had 1 pound packs of each size because I wasn't sure if they would work well or not, but they did, nicely countersinking themselves and no splitting the wood (though I am pre-drilling the 2x4 vertical - it allows me to set the screws in place so I don't have to hold the board against the wall at the right place, hold a screw in place, and also try to drive it in). I also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood. Supposedly easy to cut with a utility knife, but 4' wide pieces would rest on the wheel wells in my truck and sag (and probably snap). So I had them cut a sheet into 16" by 8' sections - given the unknown quality of the blade in their panel saw, I wasn't sure if it would cut cleanly or not - but it did. So I had 2 more sheets cut. Now I have 72 linear feet of backdrop material, for less than $40. Being wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite. And it should take tape and mud to smooth joints better than hardboard. I'm planning on cutting small sections to back joints. Spackle or wood filler might even be enough - I plan to hang it using construction adhesive with a couple of screws here and there to hold it while the adhesive sets. Then cover the screws and sand smooth. Coat of good primer, like I used on the walls, and it should be good to go.
Here's a couple of views of the progress so far. I'm still working on the fastest way to prep each piece - a huge time sink is marking the positions of each little attachment block, that's so I can drill the pilot holes in the right place and not where the block will get screwed into the vertical. I'm installing all the verticals even across the top using a level, the exact spot of each block and the associated horizontal members will be determined by setting my laser level. Even that's not super critical, as the track will be held up with risers. I'm probbaly going to have the main climb a bit as it goes from left to right (towards the helix) throught he town - that will serve to both reduce the number of helix turns and, when it splits off for the branch, since that will be just a single deck, I want to have that closer to an ideal height rather than a compromise like the two main decks.
(climb towards the right of the second pic, then around the corner onto the short wall where the junction with the branch will be, and on to the helix.)
rrinkerI also am trying something different for the backdrop. They had some 1/4" underlayment (actual thickness, something like .202") which has one side sanded smooth. It's wood, not MDF or particle board. Basically, thin 3 ply plywood.
Is that bendy enough for the inside corners of the backdrop?
rrinkerBeing wood, it should prime easier than hardboard/masonite.
I would think you would need more coats of primer than Masonite or MDF to hide the grain in the wood.
I think the underlayment is a great choice for a backdrop. Yes the joints will take drywall compound and fill in better than hardboard/Masonite.
Yes it will take a little more painting, but it is a trade off. Masonite is slippery to paint until you get the first coat on. Underlayment will soak up tthe first coat, use a good acrylic "wall and wood" primer first.
I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment.....
The holes will be small and easy to fill.
It should do fine around corners as long as you want nice sweeping ones.
Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything.....
I have only found masonite (hardboard down here) to be useful in applications where it is not being attached to anything else. We have used it for CosPlay props, sliding doors, and for light duty shelves.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon
. . .
A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape.
However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of.
ROBERT PETRICK ATLANTIC CENTRAL I would use a pneumatic stapler to attach the underlayment to the 2x4's. The kind that uses narrow staples, used for carpet, furniture backs, and, of all things, underlayment..... The holes will be small and easy to fill. . . . Personally, as someone in the construction business, I hate working with Masonite.....we virtually never use it for anything..... Sheldon A specific design criteria was that the fascia on my layout be smooth and continuous with invisible joints and nail holes. Hardboard masonite was suitable and took the paint well. Tight glued scarf joints eliminated the need for mud and tape. However . . . the first 8-foot section was put up using pneumatic staples, and the little bumpy tetons were unacceptable. I put up the other twenty or so sections using 1" slightly counter-sunk pneumatic finish nails. It took a lot of nails because the masonite does not hold nails very well and the slightly counter-sunk heads would pull through, especially for the curved areas. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of. Robert
Robert, respectfully, the whole point is that underlayment is NOT Masonite, and it takes the staples differently, not causing those bumps. We put flooring over it all the time without having to deal with any "bumps" from the staples.
And, again, as a 45 year experianced contruction professional, I would be concerned about the long term stablity of Masonite installed the way you descibed, for the reason you described, its poor nail holding.
But your mileage may vary depending on climate, conditions and possibly glue.......
If I were using Masonite for a fascia, which I would not likely do, I would attach it with screws and upholstery washers.
My last layout had a beadboard plywood fascia, nailed on and painted.
On the new layout I am leaning in the same direction as Randy, for both backdrop and fascia.
I don't have an air stapler but then any excuse for a new tool...
I can;t imagine a butt joint anything without filler is going to be 'invisible' so whatever I end up using for fascia will also be filled and sanded. In areas where it needs to be taller to hold control panels (and yes, there will be panels - operating turnouts via a DCC controller is a non-starter, doesn;t matter what brand, they are ALL awkward and in many cases the plain 'engineer' throttles can't operate turnouts or accessories), I will just use taller versions of my spacer blocks/ Though those areas will be few and far between, most will easily fit in the 4-6" of fascia that will securely attach with no extra supports. Still not sure what I will use there, more of this underlayment, or masonite. I'm leaning towards the masonite, only because in the corners I will want a tighter radius than the backdrop and what the underlayment seems to be capable of (but I haven't tried wetting the underlayment to see if it will take a tighter curve without snapping yet).
I have a stack of masonite pieces from my previous layout, only ever got two sections of fascia installed, I also have a box of the washers I used, it looked good, I used stainless screws to match the washers, too. Problem is, they are all 12" wide by 4' long - transport at the time meant no cutting it the long way into 8' sections.
I too would prefer not to use Masonite for backdrop or fascia. What radius do you think this "underlayment" could achieve? Down here if you ask for underlayment they'll give you Luan plywood (which I'm sure would be unsatisfactory). Does the material you're talking about have any other names?
I do have access to some nice 1/8" baltic birch, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be bendy enough.
Hey Randy (and Sheldon, respectfully)
I try to make clear that my meager contribution to this forum is simply showing/explaining what I have done. I'm fully aware that every situation is different.
Yes, masonite is not underlayment; nor is it drywall nor plywood nor tongue-and-groove pecky cypress. What I am saying is that masonite is a perfectly appropriate and suitable material. As long as its properties and limitations are recognized.
In my case . . . the glued scarf joints appear to be holding. The nails are holding. I will monitor them for the next 15 years or so and post photos every once in a while, and if the appearance/performance falls below my standards I will dutifully report it.
Most of the fascia is about 5 or 6 inches deep, but there are areas (up to about 12 unbroken linear feet in length, and around a curve) where the fascia is 27 inches deep. No open joints or stress or buckling there as well. Yet.
In fairness, I live in the high desert of Wyoming and the humidity is ridiculously low and constant. The range of temperature in the layout room does not exceed 5 degrees per year. That is 5 degrees total variance, or 2.5 degrees from the yearly average. But even so, my philosophy is that the coefficient of expansion for the artificial wood product (masonite hardboard) is similar to the coefficients for the lumber and plywood underlying substrate.
I apologize for the buggy ride. Please carry on.
EDIT
There are photos of the fascia on my layout build thread, but I'm adding this additional view from another angle:
The fascia in this area was installed about two years ago and it was painted about one year ago. This photo was taken about 15 minutes ago. The radius around the end of this peninsula is 30 inches.
Forgive the clutter; I am currently ballasting the area.
Earlier Randy and someone else mentioned the Kreg attachment. They have at least two designs, 1 a straight track on which the saw rides in what people call a sled, the other 2 a lateral extension to the sled that rides on the outside of the material that is being cut.
Both have mixed reviews in that there is too much play in the track-sled interface or the saw isn't held consistently.
What do you have and why do suppose it doesn't get consistently good reviews..
I have the Kreg Rip-Cut, it's the one that slides along the edge of the material.
I haven't tried it yet. Seems to have mostly positve reviews on Lowes. I can see where someone who tries to hurry and push the saw through too fast will get poor results, same thing happens when sawing freehand. My miter saw cuts just fine - but if I try to rush something and maybe not clamp down the piece but hold it by hand, the wuality fo cut goes way down. Like any other tool, use it properly, and you get good results. As soon as you shortcut - you're going to get sub-par results.
I also have a high quality repalcement blade to use on my circular saw, designed to cut plywood, instead of the dubious quality general purpose blade the saw comes with, so I'm sure that will help make better cuts as well.
Doesn't matter which way I cut my 3/4 ply, it comes in 5x5 sheets, not 4x8. Since both surface veneers run the grain the same way, i will cut to minimize chipping out just so the pieces are easier to handle.
There's also a trick of using a piece of hardboard under the shoe to make a zero-clearance insert for a circular saw, but I'm not sure that will work with the attachment of the Kreg jig.
And I may have a use for the leftover extruded foam pieces I have - instead of trying to steady these sheets on sawhorses, I can lay them on the ground on top of the foam to cut.
Robert,
From what I see you layout looks very nice.
Here in the humid summers of the Mid Atlantic, Masonite does not always fair as well.........for much of anything. I used some masonite based paneling for the interior of a pool house changing room - what a mistake, buckled from humidity and temperature extreems.
Because, most lumber expansion and contraction is a function of moisture content, not temperature.
I have always had my layouts in reasonably well controlled environments, but not as tightly controlled as yours. You are fortunate.
The drilling, nailing, stapling and screwing properties of Masonite are one of the reasons I don't care for the product.
I have known lots of modelers over the last 50 years who have used it for layout fascias, and in this climate, the upholstery washer/screw method remains most reliable long term.
Layouts in this region are generally in basements, temperatures are easily kept steady, humidity not always.
Personally, I have never been a fan of the free form fascia, so I have never needed to use something flexible like Masonite. But I am considering some curved fascia sections on my new layout. Thin plywood like underlayment will work fine.
rrinker I have the Kreg Rip-Cut, it's the one that slides along the edge of the material. I haven't tried it yet. Seems to have mostly positve reviews on Lowes. I can see where someone who tries to hurry and push the saw through too fast will get poor results, same thing happens when sawing freehand. My miter saw cuts just fine - but if I try to rush something and maybe not clamp down the piece but hold it by hand, the wuality fo cut goes way down. Like any other tool, use it properly, and you get good results. As soon as you shortcut - you're going to get sub-par results. I also have a high quality repalcement blade to use on my circular saw, designed to cut plywood, instead of the dubious quality general purpose blade the saw comes with, so I'm sure that will help make better cuts as well. Doesn't matter which way I cut my 3/4 ply, it comes in 5x5 sheets, not 4x8. Since both surface veneers run the grain the same way, i will cut to minimize chipping out just so the pieces are easier to handle. There's also a trick of using a piece of hardboard under the shoe to make a zero-clearance insert for a circular saw, but I'm not sure that will work with the attachment of the Kreg jig. And I may have a use for the leftover extruded foam pieces I have - instead of trying to steady these sheets on sawhorses, I can lay them on the ground on top of the foam to cut. --Randy
The Kreg tools look interesting, I have never purchased or used them. They look like a lot of setup work.
I have a table saw able to handle 4x8 material, but more importantly I typically rip plywood with a circular saw, two clamps and an 8' level. If I need furnture precision, I rip it oversized and run it thru the table saw.
The real trick to circular saws is, as you mentioned the blade, and also the saw - you get what you pay for.......
We typically lay plywood on three or four 2x4's for riping.
I don't have a table saw, or room to use one for full sheets - not to mention carrying and supporting full sheets of plywood - 3/4 is heavy.
There seems to be little setup with this tool. I don't trust built-in markings, but really I need all 3" wide strips so once I have the slide with the saw blade the right distance from the piece that slides along the edge, it's just cut, cut, cut. It's just a lever clamp that attaches the adjustable part to the slider and arm, so there's very little setup for this tool. Kreg seems to have a bunch of other fancier tools to use with table saws.
Moving right along, along to the back wall of the alcome. And got some of the blocks attached to the verticals. Set a piece of the underlayment in place. I was able to get it to bend even more than it is here, but with nothing to hold the end in place (not ready to actually attach it yet), this is the best I can do with something to wedge it in place on both ends. I think it will work fine.
Little by little, it grows.
That looks promising Randy.
I'm more worried about the other end, where it will have to form a convex curve. I don;t think it will bend tight enough, although some water may help. Or I may bave to notch in a different material to make the curve.
THese little blocks are a pain, I can line them all up nicely thanks to my laser level, but as the screw bites, they want to spin. That's WITH pilot holes drilled. Though I guess I don;t really need to try and be so precise with the placement, the roadbed will be supported on rises, and so long as the roadbed is level, or on an eevn grade with no dips and humps, it should be fine. They can't be too willy-nilly, or the backdrop pieces won't fit between the decks. But trying to get them all perfectly aligned on a laser straight line may be more effort than is required.
ANd I will soon be out of 2x4s again. Guess I should buy more than 8 at a time, but it takes long enough to pick through the pile of what is supposed to be the premium quality ones to get 8 at a time. Top Choice? I'm thinking Total and a different C word.
rrinkeras the screw bites, they want to spin.
The Irwin Quick-Grip clamps placed so the faces of the clamp are on both sides of both the 2x4 on the wall and the block will hold the blocks tight enough so the screws won't spin them.
carl425The Irwin Quick-Grip clamps placed so the faces of the clamp are on both sides of both the 2x4 on the wall and the block will hold the blocks tight enough so the screws won't spin them.
Mike
Before you get too far along, I would put a couple coats of paint on the backdrop material and see if you like the way it looks. It would be a shame to put in 200 ft of backdrop and then find out you can see the plywood grain in the "sky" and don't like the effect.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I plan on primering it with good high-hide primer first. Likely the good shellac-based stuff, then sand it.
Masonite is less work, just saying.
Any reason you are using 2x4's for the backdrop supports?
They're also supporting the whole layout. I really wanted to use dimensional lumber cut from 3/4 plywood, but after testing various options, none of them allowed for a nice sturdy attachment with no wobble. The extra 3/4" thickness doesn't negatively impact my track plan, and the extra depth will make it easier to run wires down behind the backdrop - power supplies for the LED strip lights, accessory power, , etc.
I was mostly worried about how tightly I could curve this stuff, but the first corner test seems to indicate no problem. Masonite still has to be primed to prevent bleed through, and I still think drywall mud will adhere better to wood than masonite. In fact that's one option I've seen for hiding plywood grain - skim coat the whole thing then sand. That is probably too much work. If the shellac-based primer can hide oak grain, it can hide this light stuff.
Just a word on grid for layout. I used steel studs for my gridwork. Used a crimper to hold together and only screws used were to fasten back to wall. Less than a day to cut and assemble. My entire layout has no legs in front nor braces on back. My longest run is 14'. This is topped by 2" to 4" of pink foam. I used steel because my layout room is subject to various temperature and humidity swings. It has stood up wonderfully and resisted movement.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Well if that has held up, with just steel stud horizontals, and frames screwed to the wall studs, but no legs and no braces - I'm not sure why people think what I'm doing is going to sag. Once there's layers of scenery on it, it would even take a LOT of water to mage the plywood soggy - if that ever happens, I have more serious issues than the layout sagging.The test piece I build - most every time I walk past it, I hang off the end - so far nothing has moved.
Update - this afternoon the governor announced shelter in place requirements for my county now as well. So it was off for a last minute run to Lowes to get supplies - even if I wasn't actually working from home during the week, I now have enough wood to completely finish the area where the the yard and town go, and either start on the moveable section in front of the furnace, or the base of the helix (if I can get to the old legs from my previous layout). Even finish the backdrop in that area - I got a wood sealer/primer and plenty of sandpaper for my littler sander. Even some spare tools - like extra drillbits of the size I am using for my pilot holes, in case I break one. Even got a gallon of sky blue color - some Valspar "Carolina Sky" which looked good under lights the same color I plan to use (I took the sample down to the lighting department to make sure). Hard to see here but I clipped the sample to the backdrop:
Looks reasonable to me.
Positives on underlayment backdrop (so far): It's cheap. It's smooth.
Cons on underlayment backdrop (so far): It's much harder to get small radius curves than hardboard
It may end up being a scarifice, but I actually screwed in place th first piece of backdrop around the inside corner. Luckily the screws I used use a Torx head, so I can load one on the drill and it doesn't fall out while I wrestle the piece of underlayment in place. It bent to a sharp enough radius (I did wet some shop towels and dampen the back side - I don't know if I actually got it damp enough to matter or not though). The force it was trying to push itself back out straight though - I wasn;t sure screws would even hold, but at one end, the joint is right in the middle of a 2x4, at the other end it's just about even with the 2x4, so I may have to cut it off somehow. One one side of the curve, two studs have screws in them, on the other side, it's flat against 3, but I only screwed it to two. The two corner ones, the backdrop is curves an dnot attached. It does come inside the support blocks that are on each vertical to extend the attachment area for th eplywood ribs, so I'm going to consider that a tight enough radius. Big test will be to check the staytus tomorrow and see if it's ripping out the screws (the unerlayment will tear, not the 2x4) or if it snaps. It wasn;t making any ominous noises when I shoved it into place.
There are only more 3 inside curves (that are 90 degrees) around the entire layout, so thus far I'll say it's more positive than negative. There are 2 right angle outside curves - that may be an issue.
rrinkerCons on underlayment backdrop (so far): It's much harder to get small radius curves than hardboard
I hope it works for you Randy. If not, there is always 0.080" styrene.
I might have to do something like that on the two outside curves to keep the backdrop close to the wall and curved. Or not curve it - the one is at the end of the added middle wall and the short wall before the helix, and it continues the town scene, so a building could disguise the 90 degree corner. Or even use a short piece at a 45. The other outside 90 is on the opposite side of this wall, where the branch turns down towards the door. If I make that a 90, I can probably hide it with some trees.
Directly opposite the one I already installed is the other inside corner, heading on to the wall with the yard. At the end of that, there will not be a curved backdrop going to the moveable section in front of the furnace, so the other sharp inside corner is all the way down at the far end of that wall (northeast corner on my plan) and then on the outside of the short wall for the branch to come off the helix and swing on to the outside of the added wall. It's a total of 6 more pieces to curve - upper deck over the one I alrerady did, upper and lower deck ontot he yard wall, upper and lower deck in the northeast corner, and one deck for the branch. And the upper deck pieces can be more wasteful of corner space, especially over the yard and town areas where I don't plan many sidings to avoid conflict with operators on the lower deck. Over the yard, the upper deck will mostly be a deep scenery area (well, 2' depth for a double track main and little else - so that's realtively high depth to track ratio). I considered spacing the backdrop out a bit ont he upper deck to reduce the depth, but at the same time I have to make sure the lighting is balanced - same number of strips in less area will appear brighter.
Well - FAIL.
It's still there. But I noticed the front (inside) veneer has cracked about half the width, just after the curve starts along the left side. Compressed in on itself too much. The back side, where it is stretched out - is just fine. Go figure.
Time to get the hardboard - either Lowes or my plywood supplier has it.
The underlayment I have is probably fine to make the 'hat' on top of the upper deck, at least in areas where it is no more than 18" wide, since they are all cut to 16" wide pieces. I'm not going to mix materials. Hardboard will handle the outside curves, too.
rrinker ...There are only more 3 inside curves (that are 90 degrees) around the entire layout, so thus far I'll say it's more positive than negative. There are 2 right angle outside curves - that may be an issue....
1/8" Masonite applied atop 3/8" drywall at all corners, with the Masonite abutting 1/2" drywall. Screwed, taped and mudded - no cracks, no joints to be seen.
Yesterday I prepped some more pieces, cut to length, drilled pilot holes. So today when I went to the basement, I was ready to go and get stuff built. I need to do more of this, work more in an assembly line fashion and complete a stock of pieces in one session and then use them in another.
As such, I now have all the verticals on 2 walls of the yard/town room, and a lot of the support blocks in place. I even did a quick video update.
Back wall:
Back corner:
Rest of the 'new wall':
Video walkaround:
I may have to do silent videos from here on one, and put title cards in or something. I sound horrible. There is no editing - I just upload what I shoot. Straight from the phone.
You sound OK, I think it's normal to think your own voice sounds terrible.
BigDaddyYou sound OK, I think it's normal to think your own voice sounds terrible.
I would say that you sound great!. Your voice is clear and easy to understand, and the video progresses at a decent pace. Too many videos move at a snail's pace. Your's is good.
The only minor problem I had was that I had to crank the volume up to max. on my el cheapo computer speakers, and even then I had to listen carefully. No big deal.
Yeah, a phone isn't an ideal video device - if I have the screen in front of me so I can see what I'm shooting, then my mouth is not near the microphone. I guess I could try using my earbuds and recording through that microphone. Or see if I can boost the audio when I convert the video.
I should show your post to my GF. She always says I don't speak clearly enough and she has a hard time understanding me. Maybe I just need to say "yinz" and "pop"
Have to see where I get tomorrow - I'm almost out of the little blocks, so I have to cut up another 2x4 and drill them. Or I can continue with the verticals down the yard side, I still have 10 more prepped. Otherwise it's time to break out the circular saw and the Kreg guide and start cutting plywood strips.
More of the support blocks added, and the first horizontal installed.
Getting there. Need to get hardboard for the backdrops before I go much further.
Edit: oops, two of the same picture.
Looking good Randy! Your voice is fine. Nice progress.
Wow, has it been almost 2 months? I FINALLY did some more work today. Stopped by Lowes because SWMBO wanted flowers to plant outside, so I grabbed some masonite foor backdrops and also a sheet of 3/4" plywoood for the end of the area I've been working on - this is where the turntable and engine house will be so I figured why bother making it open grid type benchwork, I'll just cookie cutter a piece of plywood. In a short time today I got started on the verticals down the long wall and got two sections (tootal 16') of backdrop up. Still needs to be sanded, spackeled, sanded again, and painted, but at least there's something there.
Tomorrow I plan to be down in the basement most of the day, building the support area for the plywood base and getting that in place. I'm not holding my breath but maybe some track even - though I don't think I have any caulk and only a tiny amount of roadbed.
Looking forward to seeing your work Randy.
SO here are some pics of additional progress. Brackets started down left hand (longer outside) wall, this is the side that will have the yard. And backdrop being put in place.
I also started framing out the area for the engine terminal. Definitely will have a support leg in the corner there. I have my old legs salvaged from the old layout, but I can't get at them. Perfect place to reuse them.
What I really need is a faster way to make the brackets. I'm thinking I could possibly cut strips of plywood and then make up the sections with the spacer at the far end in bulk, and then go around attaching them to the verticals.
I may have made things harder on myself by deciding to have the main start a slight upgrade behind the town while the yard lead extends to become a bit of a city switching branch. though all that really needs is a 2-track wide strip of plywood lifted on risers while the rest of the shelf stays flat. 2 reasons for that - reduce the rise required in the helix, and also this sets the level for the branch that goes around the outside - since it is only a single deck section, I want it higher than the lower deck fir a more optimal view. The loop around the outside of the helix can also be aon a grade, meaning the grade can be fairly minimal yet accomplish the goal. Downside is, I can't really have a connection at the far end of town between the main and the switch lead/city branch, even at double the grade it would take half the distance to come back down to the 0 elevation. ANd I kind of wanted to put a sneak loop in from the branch through the wall to reconnect to the main, which will not be possible without an absurd grade. If the uphill is 1%, I can probably get the sneak path in with a 3% grade - maybe not unworkable, since it would ALWAYS be downhill if used. Mainly for display running, and a shortcut to work the bottom deck before the top deck is done.
rrinkerI can probably get the sneak path in with a 3% grade - maybe not unworkable, since it would ALWAYS be downhill if used
Got some backdrop up on the upper level in the same corner now. ANd I finally got a chance to start cutting plywood with my circular saw and Kreg Rip-Cut jig:
The saw clamps in the sled, the part with 2 slots (for left or right hand motor circular saws) and the lower piece slides along the edge of the piece you are cutting for accurate repeatable cuts. I also have a Diablo 60t blade for smooth cuts - and it cuts through the 3/4 birch like butter, nice smooth edges, no tear outs. First piece came out 1/8" wide - initial calibration is to put the sled against the blade and zero it, but then you have to set the width using the scale and pointer and make one cut to adjust it. It's not really critical, when attaching the pieces I am leveling the tops, so if one piece hangs down by 1/8" it's no big deal. But the second oen came out dead on 3" after I adjusted the indicator, and now they will all be exactly 3".
I'm considering not using the outboard space blocks in each pair of arms like I did with the first one. At least where the arms are 12" or less. Yes, they wiggle side to side a bit - that is until I install the plywood subroadbed on top of them. And then the fascia. Wider areas may need in to manage the flex, but even there I am wondering - such as the 2' wide yard section. That will fully be covered with 3/4" plywood from the wall to the outer edge of the arms. There's no way that's going to move side to side.
rrinker...I finally got a chance to start cutting plywood with my circular saw and Kreg Rip-Cut jig...
I wasn;t about to get a table saw for just this one use, plus handling a 4x6 sheet, as I expected, of 3/4" plywood is not easy, even with extension tables. ANd I don;t trust the big box guys to cut properly - their saw has coarse teeth anyway. The specialty wood place where I got the good 3/4" 13 ply birch for the structural bits, as far as I know, doesn;t offer a cutting service, and chopping a full panel into 3" strips would get expensive pretty quickly if they charge per cut. This seemed liek the best option - worst case, I could back my truck load of plywood into my driveway and cut it right off the back of the truck, but the good stuff only comes in 5x5 sheets and they aren't quite as hard to handle, downside is while a 4x8 sheet fits my truck (over the wheel wells), the 5' width does not, so I have to get them to deliver it. They won;t bring it into my basement, but they will put it in the garage, I just lift a sheet onto a furniture dolly and wheel it into the basement.
Got two piece of subroadbed cut. Not attached yet, but I did slice up a sheet of plywood to make lots of brackets.
Upper level backdrop:
Subroadbed 1:
Subroadbed 2:
Getting there, slowly.
Looking good, Randy.
Alton Junction
Nice Randy, great to see your progress!
It's neat to see a few pieces of the subroadbed resting in place. Sure looks like progress to me!
BTW, you have done an excellent job of coving the corners!
Nice work Randy. I can better see what your trying to do with the double decks.
I like the narrow height of the brackets jutting out from the wall, which seems essential for a double decked plan. The trade off is you need a lot of wall supports for the brackets. Gotta do what it takes. Nice job.
The one on the right, where the yellow tool is sitting (it's a very nice stud finder), I can lean pretty heavily on that and it doesn't give. I actually have to cut that off, it's too long for where the track is coming out.
The two 2x4's on the left, there will be a leg where they meet up, but right now they are just hanging in space, glued and screwed to the uprights. I'm not going to lean my full weight on that, but it doesn't move much when I put weight on it, and that sticks out about 4 feet from each wall.
Just got my order of fresh laser cut baltic birch from our friends in Canuckia, so now I can test to see if I made those subroadbed pieces the right size before I put on the supports and permanently put it in place.
Translation: I ordered a whole bunch of SweepSticks from Fast Tracks along with some of their SpaceGage tools so I can lay out my curves without trying to string lines or swing a stick from my camera tripod.
The left side piece I am not worried about, but I cut the right side piece a little narrow, and there might not be room to get it all on. There are two main tracks at 30" radius with 3" spacing (probably doesn't need to widen out that much since I don;t plan on running 80-85' cars, which past experiences has told me need at least 3" center space on 30" radius curves), plus a third track at 28" radis spaced much futher - a continuation of the yard lead which also serves as the city branch.
Aaaaand......
Yup, inside track way too close to the edge. Easy fix though, I can just cut out a bit more from the isude of where I cut it from the big sheet, so it will even have the same curvature and mate up to the cut part. The track doesn;t overhanf the inside lip, but it's so close that anything leaving the rails would hit the floor, so a small protective piece with scenery will give it someplace for a car to roll.
Other side is fine, plenty of room for the inner track - plus the open space there will get filled in with a lift out piece containing the roundhouse and turntable anyway.
rrinker The left side piece I am not worried about, but I cut the right side piece a little narrow, and there might not be room to get it all on. There are two main tracks at 30" radius with 3" spacing (probably doesn't need to widen out that much since I don;t plan on running 80-85' cars, which past experiences has told me need at least 3" center space on 30" radius curves), plus a third track at 28" radis spaced much futher - a continuation of the yard lead which also serves as the city branch.
The main is 30". This is the yard lead for the little switchers. And it's 50's era - it will be rare that even a 50' box car would be on that track. Mostly 40 footers.
I'm not a radius snob. I want a railroad, not a bunch of really neat looking cuves that run into one another. The big club modular layout has 28" radius curves and there is not a thing that won't run on them. Even brass articulateds and 10 drive locos. Viewed from the inside, it's not even noticeable. The branch around the outside will be similar. Actually, I have that one drawn down to 24" so it doesn;t stick too faroout away from the all, but since I now have the 28" radius SweepSticks, I might go bigger.
rrinker I'm not a radius snob.
I'm not a radius snob.
My last layout was 22" radius and Atlas #4 turnouts and nothing derailed.... Granted I didn't run my Northerns on it. But I was modeling a branch they never would have gone down in the first place (counting down until someone shows a Ramble shot where they did venture that way.......). Only 6 axle first gen units are Trainmasters, everything else is 4 axle only. Reading didn't have any SDs, or RSC/RSDs.
It's not the radius so much as it is not being sloppy with the track and roadbed, no kinks, no sudden curves, no sudden grade changes, etc.
rrinker It's not the radius so much as it is not being sloppy with the track and roadbed, no kinks, no sudden curves, no sudden grade changes, etc.
I 100% agree.
I run 24 inch radius on my hidden and branch line trackage, and never have problems. I use Atlas sectional track for 24 inch radius because it is easier to assure a consistent radius and avoid kinking.
I run SD-7s, Trainmasters, PA-1s, and full length passenger cars. Also. My Bachmann 2-8-8-4 will go around an 18 inch radius curve, but it sure looks silly doing it.
I use 36 inch as a minimum for the little mainline visible trackage I have.
Biggest loco I have is a 4-8-4, and it doesn;t look silly on the 28" at the club, so it will be fine on 30" here. The helix is wider radius - I don't want the helix to be the sharpest nor the steepest track on the layout, that's asking for trouble.
No 80-85' passenger cars on the Reading, and no 89' flats or articulated auto racks in the 50's, either.
I'd use #5 turnouts in the yard, but the first Code 70 that Peco says they are releasing are #6. But after 2 years of waiting, who knows if they will ever show up. I really do not want to build a yard using Code 70 flex (readily available) but have EVERY turnout require careful shimming and soldering to transition to Code 83 turnouts. My progress is slow wnough so as it is, if I have to painstakingly make every joint like that in the yard, it'll never get built. I'd sooner just use all Code 83 and hope it loooks good enough just using different ballast and thinner roadbed.
The Fast Tracks SweepSticks are pretty neat. I just dry fit them to check my space, but I've since assembled some of the sections together. And Peco flex is a very nice compromise between Atlas and ME - when bending it by hand I thought it flexxed back, but after using some SweepSticks to form a curve in a piece - it barely moved back. yet it curved smoothly and neatly without having to jockey the ties around like ME.
Company decided to make today a paid holiday, so I was able to get some work done on the layout
I started installing the horizontal pieces, cut from 3/4" birch plywood
You can see how I screw it to both the main vertical and the extra piece. Also glued.
The corner is a special case. I cut one side and attached it to the other to form a solid corner
And continued over to the 2x4 frame I built earlier
Then I put the cut piece of subroadbed back to see how it would fit
The extra bit of the horizontals will be cut off before I attach fascia.
I also added some more of the brace blocks to the existing verticals
And some over on the other side as well
So I could add a couple more pieces of backdrop
And on the other side
Overall view of this section of the layout so far:
Back at it tomorrow. Supposed to rain all weekend, and I need more plywood for subroadbed.
Randy: I really appreciate all the good pictures you are posting along with your layout build.
These make it easy to understand what you are doing.
Great work.
Next step before I get much further is to sand, tape and mud, and sand again the backdrop. Easier to get at it without the horizontal pieces in place. Painting - I might start that before more subroadbed, or not. I can easily get at it to paint, at least along the shorter wall where the benchwork is narrow.
Great progress Randy!
Looks impressive, Randy!
So here's what I've been up to the past few weeks.
First, spackle all the screw holes in the backdrop, and the gaps where two panels meet:
Then I sanded it all and applied the first coat of high-hide primer:
And a second coat of primer:
And tonight I put on the blue:
Next it is on down the yard side. I can at least put the main in there - still waiting on Peco and their Code 70 track for the actual yard tracks.
Backdrops look most excellent. Nice shade of blue too.
It will look slightly different under the lights I plan to install under the upper decks - the room lights will not be used normally. I took the paint sample card down to the lighting section of Lowes where they have different color temperature LEDs so I could see which one looked best under the lights I plan to use - I'm not going to go all fancy with clouds or anything, just plain blue. I have to go look at the sticker on the can for the name of it, it was a standard color off the cards at Lowes. I also realize I've been being way too picky when painting - the bottom 3/4" you will never see because it will be behind the plywood subroadbed. And the back wall, the short one - you may bever see the upp deck backdrop - because of reach issues I am plannign to keep the track there pretty close to the front - about where thay 2x4 sticks out, and from there and all along the yard, the upper deck will be mostly just the main and scenery so I don;t have someone trying to switch an industry on the upper deck getting in the way of someone working the yard on the lower deck. But, it's there, I know I did it, even if it can't be seen.
Next step, finish the verticals down the yard side. Then I need to get some more Masonite for those backdrops, and some roadbed plywood - I really hope they have the same stuff I already used. My top quality 13 ply birch plywood I am saving for the horizontal supports.
rrinker Next step, finish the verticals down the yard side. Then I need to get some more Masonite for those backdrops, and some roadbed plywood - I really hope they have the same stuff I already used. My top quality 13 ply birch plywood I am saving for the horizontal supports.
Hi Randy,
Your progress is excellent even if you don't think so yourself!
I'm a little envious of your backdrops because my layout will not have any. I may make up some moveable screens for photography but that will be way down the road. Someone suggested I use a centre view block but I prefer the idea of having a wider scene.
If you are interested, one of my old club members developed a really quick and easy method for doing decent looking clouds. He made several stencils out of heavy card stock with the outlines for various clouds. All he did was hold them in place and spray the area below the stencil with white paint in various concentrations, always with a flat bottom. He was able to get an array of different clouds by combining the stencils in various positions. Here is an example:
rrinker I'm not going to go all fancy with clouds or anything, just plain blue.
I agree. Your decks and backdrops are each short enough that the mountain scenery and trees will probably not leave a lot of sky left over to worry about. If it was a single deck then maybe yes, but in your situation I think plain blue will look great.
Yes, most of the upper deck will be hills, hiding much of the backdrop, and the lower level around this area will have building flats and other things. Over on the other side there will be some more open country - I may use a preprinted farmland scene along some of it.
The long branch line around the outside, that will be a lot of open land, with some forested areas. That will only be a single deck, slightly higher off the ground than the bottom deck, and the backdrop will be a tiny bit taller - see when you cut a 48" wide piece of Masonite at the 16" mark, you get 2 that are 16" and one that's slightly wider. So right now I have 3 pieces which are too wide to fit. Seems counter-intuitive, you'd think you'd be losing the 16" plus saw kerf for each slice, leaving the last piece short, but they aren't exactly 48" wide, the actual dimension comes out somewhat over.
Bumping for SpaceMouse. I laid in a supply of material over the weekend but didn;t get anythign done. Been working upstairs to organize things with shelves and so forth so I can get my workbench up and running, another step to getting some of the stored in teh garage stuff back in place. I also have a neat idea for a test track running along the rear of the workbench, so more than 6' long. Raised about 6" above the work surface so there will be room for things underneath it. At one end will be all the various devices - Lokprogrammer, PR3, DC power pack, etc. for testing things.
Looks like you are getting there. I have no where near the amount of space you do, but I still haven't gotten a single piece of track layed.
I share the concerns about your joist support system. There are just too many things that can go wrong. And I too was in construction. I'd hate to see you get a lot invested...
Now then, if something did happen, you could brace the lower deck at a diagononal back to the wall. (I'm not sure why you haven't done this already.) You could then support the upper section with either cables to the ceiling or all-thread to the lower deck.
Hopefully, none of this will be an issue.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
So I finally did a little more work. More verticals installed along the yard side. I had 9 sections cut and ready to go. Using the new impact driver - took less than a half hour. Granted, I did go along and mark the studs the other day, and I also set screws in all the holes in the verticals, so all I had to do was hold it up in line witht he stud mark and put a level across from the previous one.
All I can say is, I should have gotten an impact driver a long time ago. Easy to use one-handed, the screws don't wobble and fall off half the time. Screws just zip in, and countersink nicely.
Five more and the yard alcove will have all the verticals. Next is to get the blocks all up, thent he new sections of backdrop and paint them.
I will probably use legs under the yard area. But for the upper level - to keep the weight down, I figured I will just run plywood where the track goes, and fill in the rest with foam - much lighter. It's going to mostly be just scenery above the yard, having a switching area right where a yardmaster will be switching the yard on the lower level would not be good, so the second deck over the yard will just be track through the scenery.
rrinker All I can say is, I should have gotten an impact driver a long time ago. Easy to use one-handed, the screws don't wobble and fall off half the time. Screws just zip in, and countersink nicely.
rrinker All I can say is, I should have gotten an impact driver a long time ago.
Yup!! Same here! With my conversion to Torx screws, the driver seems to be nearly infallible. I can't believe how long the tiny battery lasts!
I would repeat the old mantra that good tools are worth the price except for the fact that my Bosch impact driver was less than $70.00. What's not to love?!?