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Crazy Staging Yard Idea

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Posted by corsiar on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 12:37 AM

Now the next big question comes up and why I was trying to stay away from a wye. How do I wire it? Most of my rolling stock have metal wheels. From my understanding the isolated section needs to be longer than the train for an autoreverser to work.

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Posted by selector on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 12:51 AM

Not really.  You only need to stagger the gaps so that only one metal tire ever crosses any one of the gaps.  That way, the reverser can detect the short, correct it, and then reverse that correction if another metal tire at the other end causes a new short.  Digital Specialties, in my PSX-AR's instructions dating now to 2006, state that if you necessarily have to have a reversed, gapped, section that is short, and shorter than your typical consist, simply create two SETS, or PAIRS, of gaps at each end of the reversed section.  The idea is to have the two pairs of gaps set apart such that the longest metal tired truck in the train, say a lighted passenger car, will fit between the pairs of gaps.  This might seem a bit mind-blowing, but if you draw a diagram and think about it, it makes sense.  

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Posted by Water Level Route on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 5:57 AM

Easy.  The entire staging yard is your reversing section.  Wire it all through the autoreverser, including the wye turnout.

Mike

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 6:26 AM

Water Level Route

Easy.  The entire staging yard is your reversing section.  Wire it all through the autoreverser, including the wye turnout. 

Yep, you gap the two diverging ends of the wye to isolate the staging yard from the mainline, treating the entire staging yard and wye as the reversing section. The two turnouts on the mainline that feed into the wye are wired the same way as the mainline.

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:49 AM

 On last question - can you put a hole in the short wall next to the closet door? Specifically, on the left. If you can do that, you can move the whole yard ladder to the left, and even make it truly hidden staging by leaving the closet door in place and closed, unless you need to go in to fix something. 

                               --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by corsiar on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:28 PM

Thought about it but then it is something I have to fix when I sell the house. Not sure how long I will be in this house.

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 3:20 PM

corsiar
Thought about it but then it is something I have to fix when I sell the house. Not sure how long I will be in this house.

Another option would be to remove the front walls of the closet entirely leaving just a rectangular space. Instead of replacing the walls when you decide to move, just buy sliding closet doors to fit the wider opening.

Dave

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 7:17 PM

If you think your going to be moving in the near future, just leave the closet walls alone, as your storage tracks will fit just fine.

Are there doors on it now?

It looks like the area will hold more than your longest train. 

You don't give dimensions of the closet, I'm just going by sight.

Mike.

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Posted by corsiar on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:00 PM

There were doors on it but the previous owner removed them and I havent put them back on yet. The opening is 59" with 10" on either side. Back of the closet to the layout is 50". I moved the track a bit plus used all available space now the shortest ladder is 71". So the trains will be around that length. Almost have 8 trains worth of cars and need 6 more locomotives. The Q tip is 75" from the end of the desk.

 

  

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Posted by mbinsewi on Wednesday, February 12, 2020 8:08 PM

I see you have a 3d printer,  have you done much with it?  Just curious.

Mike.

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Posted by corsiar on Thursday, February 13, 2020 2:26 PM

Starting to experiment with the 3d printer. Have some ideas for scenery and structures. Its resolution is not fine enought to make N scale locomotive/rolling stock parts. I did make a holder for the power cab.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, February 13, 2020 3:15 PM

Nice !  Mines a little crude, compared to yours.  Laugh

Mike.

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Posted by snjroy on Thursday, February 13, 2020 3:29 PM

Nice work with the printer!  I noticed from the picture that you have some long cars in there (modern auto carriers?).  Keep in mind that these require pretty wide curves, especially when backing up. We have some at our club and I would not go below 30'' radius (in HO) with these for both appearance and reliable operation.

Simon

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Posted by corsiar on Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:49 PM

The auto racks are Atlas articulated. The main lines curves of the layout are 18" min with 22" and 32" with one of the yard curves at 15". The staging yard I have gone down to 12" and turnouts with 12". May have to experiment before building the staging yard.

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Posted by corsiar on Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:29 PM

Anyone have any ideas how I can hide the big hole in the back drop? The little one I can put trees there. That corner was going to be trees anyways. So far dont have any great ideas for the big one.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, February 13, 2020 8:05 PM

Since you can't use the dead space between the wye and the wall, fill that in with benchwork, move the backdrop to make the wye visable, and only have one opening to hide with some trees.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, February 13, 2020 9:06 PM

I agree, good idea.

Mike.

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, February 16, 2020 6:06 AM

i was currious about what track arrangement with curves resulted in tracks of more equal length.  the center and shortest is the escape track.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 16, 2020 8:40 AM

gregc

i was currious about what track arrangement with curves resulted in tracks of more equal length.  the center and shortest is the escape track.

 

The OP has abandoned the escape track idea in favor of a stub end yard with a wye, which makes all tracks longer than he needs..........

For most modelers staging tracks need not all be the same length. For example my average passenger train will only be 14' long or less, my average freight train will be over 20'.

Shorter tracks are simply assigned to store shorter trains.......

Sheldon

    

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Posted by gregc on Sunday, February 16, 2020 4:36 PM

i assume that you'd like roughly equal length trains in staging.   If so, a parallellogram yard would work.   but it doesn't work when curved and you have limited space.   So i was curious how you would do it in such a case and I thought rich's idea was interesting.   

I think it's also interesting that the ladders at each end are asymmetrical and depend on the number of tracks.   and also that the escape track turns out to be the shortest track.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by BMMECNYC on Sunday, February 16, 2020 7:28 PM

On the back up moves note, on my former club modules, I could run my grain train forwards or backwards at medium speed through my #6 turnouts with either my P2k SD60s or Kato SD9043MACs on the head end without issues.  Im using Sergent couplers though, and yes the cars are only 60ft not 85ft.  I've not spent a lot of time getting standard gauge passenger equipment to work properly because Im not modelling that at the moment.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, February 16, 2020 7:55 PM

This becomes a contest of Point/Counterpoint.

Forum Member A: Backing up trains leads to derailments.

Forum Member B: I back up trains and they never derail.

Forum Member A: Mine do.

Forum Member B: Mine don't.

I would simply suggest that the chances of a derailment are greater with back up moves than with forward moves. That's the beauty of a double ended yard. Arriving and departing trains can alway move forward. But, with a stub end yard, if you pull a train in forward, you gotta back it out. Or, you gotta back it in if you want to pull it out forward.

That why I like the loco escape track in a stub yard. You pull the train in, the loco uncouples and escapes on the runaround track, and the loco gets behind the train to pull it out.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 16, 2020 8:59 PM

richhotrain

This becomes a contest of Point/Counterpoint.

Forum Member A: Backing up trains leads to derailments.

Forum Member B: I back up trains and they never derail.

Forum Member A: Mine do.

Forum Member B: Mine don't.

I would simply suggest that the chances of a derailment are greater with back up moves than with forward moves. That's the beauty of a double ended yard. Arriving and departing trains can alway move forward. But, with a stub end yard, if you pull a train in forward, you gotta back it out. Or, you gotta back it in if you want to pull it out forward.

That why I like the loco escape track in a stub yard. You pull the train in, the loco uncouples and escapes on the runaround track, and the loco gets behind the train to pull it out.

Rich

 

To me, most of the following is obvious, but I will explain anyway.

Most of my staging was, on the old layout, and will be, on the new layout, thru staging with double ended "yards", not just to avoid backing moves......but to also avoid rebuilding consists or switching locomotives.

The one yard that will be stub end, like I suggested to the OP here, will have the wye fully visable and have easy open access to the yard itself in my workshop area.

Even the stub end yard will not be used to reconfigure consists while in the yard, by operation or by 5 finger switching.

I strongly dislike unnecessary 5 finger switching of equipment, and as a modeler of an era with cabeese, there is more to it than running a loco around a train. 

In my scheme of operation, all trains are placed in staging in the desired configuration, and will return to staging in whatever configuration they end the session in.

Changes are only made prior to the sessions, or as part of the session in the main visable yard.

My "idea" of staging is a place to park trains so they can appear on stage at the right time, and so they have a place to go off stage.

Back to the stub end yard on the wye. It will be a perfectly straight level yard about 20 feet long, 10 to 12 tracks with only the slightest curve between the wye and the ladder tracks. So curves involved in backing are minimized and largely visable from the "scenic" side.

Trains will not generally be backed into staging as part of an active operating session. Trains will pull out to simulate trains arriving from off scene locations. Trains will pull in to simulate their leaving to off scene locations.

They will be turned later for re-staging.

The 23rd corollary of Murphy's law says "The probablity that the train will jump the track is increased by the square of the number of people watching".

Generally I will be the only one watching these trains back out of the staging, pull thru the wye, and back into the staging yard........

All that said, I think the design the OP has come up with will work fine.

A few more thoughts on my thru staging - the thru staging will not be one "giant" yard, but rather a series of small yards spread along the hidden portion of my "twice around" continuous double track main line.

Detection circuits and possibly cameras will monitor train locations.

None of those yards will exceed two additional tracks beyond the main line in each direction, several will be just one additional track, more like "staging sidings" if you will. This too is done to avoid complex yard ladders that would be a source of possible trouble, even with all trains only moving forward thru the hidden portion of the layout.

I've been doing this hidden thru staging thing since 1968........

The stub end yard is a compromise, but a very small one in my view. In a perfect world it would be double ended and have a return loop...........

But I only have 1600 sq feet..........

I am a radius snob, self confessed. My minimum radius for the mainline is 36", even for hidden track. I likely could have sqeezed in a lot more "features" with 30" radius, but no thank you.......

And, I model the 50's, most of my freight cars are 50' or less (in fact, the only freight equipment I own longer than 50' is a small fleet of those "brand new" 75' piggyback flats that hit the rails in 1953).

So backing 35 40' cars around a 36" curve with #6 and #8 turnouts, has proven in the past to be very trouble free.

Long modern cars, or RTR 85' passenger cars with questionable coupler set ups, backing up around 30" curves and I would have concerns too.........

Even most of my passenger fleet is 72' selectively compressed Athearn and ConCor stuff.......

Because I do understand the physics of model trains pretty well........

I realize my choices, very large curves with selectively compressed passenger cars, my special freight car trucks, my special passenger car diaphragm/coupler set up, all seem like over kill to many of you.

But they provide the operational reliability that I need......to have 30 staged trains, to run in and out of hidden staging, to back trains into staging, and to allow 5 trains to run with minimal attention in display mode.

These are my goals, I have no interest in changing or compromising the goals.

I do understand and respect the concerns of those who are not as comfortable with backing long trains, but the combined effects of excellent trackwork, high rolling stock standards, and comfortable engineering margins such as the large curves, can bring the risk near zero.

Sheldon  

 

    

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Posted by corsiar on Monday, February 17, 2020 1:01 AM

Did some testing with my articluated auto racks full length in my classification yard with no issues. Backed it in, went through multiple turnouts, pushed i trough a crossover then through another cross over taht are 3 cars apart, speeds from 5-45 sale mph and no derailments. 

Getting rid of the 12" radius turnouts and going with 18". Didnt shorten the ladders enough to worry about.

Have to change track spacing from 1" to 1-1/4". The passenger cars would hit other cars in the curves. Inside ladder is only 68" but dont have much choice.

The BNSF interchange is in the area of the wye so I am just going to make it part of the layout and the staging yard will represent the BNSF yard.

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 17, 2020 5:30 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

To me, most of the following is obvious, but I will explain anyway.

Most of my staging was, on the old layout, and will be, on the new layout, thru staging with double ended "yards", not just to avoid backing moves......but to also avoid rebuilding consists or switching locomotives.

The one yard that will be stub end, like I suggested to the OP here, will have the wye fully visable and have easy open access to the yard itself in my workshop area.

Even the stub end yard will not be used to reconfigure consists while in the yard, by operation or by 5 finger switching.

I strongly dislike unnecessary 5 finger switching of equipment, and as a modeler of an era with cabeese, there is more to it than running a loco around a train. 

In my scheme of operation, all trains are placed in staging in the desired configuration, and will return to staging in whatever configuration they end the session in.

Changes are only made prior to the sessions, or as part of the session in the main visable yard.

My "idea" of staging is a place to park trains so they can appear on stage at the right time, and so they have a place to go off stage.

Back to the stub end yard on the wye. It will be a perfectly straight level yard about 20 feet long, 10 to 12 tracks with only the slightest curve between the wye and the ladder tracks. So curves involved in backing are minimized and largely visable from the "scenic" side.

Trains will not generally be backed into staging as part of an active operating session. Trains will pull out to simulate trains arriving from off scene locations. Trains will pull in to simulate their leaving to off scene locations.

They will be turned later for re-staging.

The 23rd corollary of Murphy's law says "The probablity that the train will jump the track is increased by the square of the number of people watching".

Generally I will be the only one watching these trains back out of the staging, pull thru the wye, and back into the staging yard........

All that said, I think the design the OP has come up with will work fine.

A few more thoughts on my thru staging - the thru staging will not be one "giant" yard, but rather a series of small yards spread along the hidden portion of my "twice around" continuous double track main line.

Detection circuits and possibly cameras will monitor train locations.

None of those yards will exceed two additional tracks beyond the main line in each direction, several will be just one additional track, more like "staging sidings" if you will. This too is done to avoid complex yard ladders that would be a source of possible trouble, even with all trains only moving forward thru the hidden portion of the layout.

I've been doing this hidden thru staging thing since 1968........

The stub end yard is a compromise, but a very small one in my view. In a perfect world it would be double ended and have a return loop...........

But I only have 1600 sq feet..........

I am a radius snob, self confessed. My minimum radius for the mainline is 36", even for hidden track. I likely could have sqeezed in a lot more "features" with 30" radius, but no thank you.......

And, I model the 50's, most of my freight cars are 50' or less (in fact, the only freight equipment I own longer than 50' is a small fleet of those "brand new" 75' piggyback flats that hit the rails in 1953).

So backing 35 40' cars around a 36" curve with #6 and #8 turnouts, has proven in the past to be very trouble free.

Long modern cars, or RTR 85' passenger cars with questionable coupler set ups, backing up around 30" curves and I would have concerns too.........

Even most of my passenger fleet is 72' selectively compressed Athearn and ConCor stuff.......

Because I do understand the physics of model trains pretty well........

I realize my choices, very large curves with selectively compressed passenger cars, my special freight car trucks, my special passenger car diaphragm/coupler set up, all seem like over kill to many of you.

But they provide the operational reliability that I need......to have 30 staged trains, to run in and out of hidden staging, to back trains into staging, and to allow 5 trains to run with minimal attention in display mode.

These are my goals, I have no interest in changing or compromising the goals.

I do understand and respect the concerns of those who are not as comfortable with backing long trains, but the combined effects of excellent trackwork, high rolling stock standards, and comfortable engineering margins such as the large curves, can bring the risk near zero.

Sheldon, well said. Let me respond with some bullet points to your main arguments.

  • Double ended yards are the key, whenever possible, not just to avoid backing moves but also to avoid rebuilding consists or switching locomotives. I totally agree.

 

  • The probability that the train will jump the track is increased by the square of the number of people watching. I could not agree more with this 23rd corollary of Murphy's Law.

 

  • Complex yard ladders will definitely add to the possibility of derailments with backup moves. It would be better to design the simplest ladder possible on the theory that each turnout encountered will add to the problem.

 

  • My minimum radius is 32", but I envy your 36" minimum radius. I would not consider you a radius snob.

 

  • With 85' passenger cars, I notice a slight overhang on the 32" radius curves. But where I have 36" or greater curves, there is no overhang.

 

  • There is a direct coorelation between radius and derailment. I use #6 turnouts on ladders. But, it would be better to use #8 turnouts on ladders where backup moves are required.

 

  • The probability of derailments is increased with longer passenger cars and freight cars, questionable coupler setups and RTR diaphragms. I plead guilty on that account.

If the OP decides to move forward with the wye, perhaps derailments with backup moves will be minimal. For his sake, let's all hope so.

Rich

 

 

Alton Junction

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 17, 2020 6:52 AM

 With a wye staging, I don;t see why there would be much need to back up, at least while operating. Train pulls out of staging, it can go either way. Train arrives back in staging from either direction, it can just pull in.

 Backing moves to turn trains and restage. sure.

Carefully laid trackwork shouldn't have problems, unless it has things like sub-par radius curves or overly sharp turnouts. Derailment-free operation should be everyone's goal. It's definitely possible.

                                  --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 17, 2020 8:15 AM

rrinker

 With a wye staging, I don't see why there would be much need to back up, at least while operating. 

There wouldn't be any need to back up while operating.

rrinker

Train pulls out of staging, it can go either way. Train arrives back in staging from either direction, it can just pull in.  Backing moves to turn trains and restage. sure.

Those are clearly the available options with a wye. Pull forward into staging and then back out, or back into staging and then pull out forward. With either option, a back up move will be required with stub end staging.

rrinker

Carefully laid trackwork shouldn't have problems, unless it has things like sub-par radius curves or overly sharp turnouts. Derailment-free operation should be everyone's goal. It's definitely possible.

I think that we all agree with that. Derailment-free operation is definitely possible. But circumstances will differ with each individual layout and each individual operator.

Speaking for myself, I have derailment-free operation across my entire layout in forward motion. That was my first and foremost priority. But, in my stub end passenger station, I still experience an occasional problem with back up movements of 85' passenger car consists. My objective is to eliminate those occasional derailments, but that may require replacing some #6 turnouts with #8 turnouts and some further tweaking of the couplers and coupler boxes.

Time will tell if the OP can achieve derailment-free operations with the wye-fed staging yard.

Rich                             

 

 

Alton Junction

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, February 17, 2020 8:29 AM

Rich, in addition to coupler/diaphragm issues with passenger cars, proper weight is essential. It is my feeling that many RTR cars are too light.

If you recall my Bachmann locomotive improvements, step one is add 3-4 oz to the tenders.

This fixes a host of issues, tracking, backing, electrical pickup.........

Long passenger cars are no different.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 17, 2020 8:50 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Rich, in addition to coupler/diaphragm issues with passenger cars, proper weight is essential. It is my feeling that many RTR cars are too light.

I agree. Pushing a string of lightweight 85' passenger cars threatens to violate the law of physics. Adding weight would certainly help.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by corsiar on Monday, February 17, 2020 2:24 PM

Going to look something like this.

 

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