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Basement stage 2 under way! Pics added

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Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:45 AM

Randy, your excitement is contagious!  Fun to see progress being made.  I'm continuing to work on my backdrop - which was delayed when I realized I had to do some remedial work on my exterior basement wall in the layout area.  I'm learning to just put my head down and plow forward.

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:25 AM

richhotrain

 

 
rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.  

 

 

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

 

Rich

 

We never do finish painting before carpentry is done. Drywall priming yes, ceilings maybe.......walls never.

Sheldon

 

 

    

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:50 AM

richhotrain
 
rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.   

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

 

Rich


That's pretty much it.  I finished my basement and wanted it to be fully finished before starting on the layout.  My wife would have insisted on it if I decided to not do that.  We wanted it fully finished so it would be done and we could advertise the home with a fully finished basement for that some day when we would eventally move out or downsize.

I painted all the drywall from floor to ceiling before the drop ceiling was installed.  That way the drop ceiling rails would be attached to painted drywall - a standard order of finshing.

As to the bottom, as Rich mentioned, I didn't paint the walls completely to the floor.  I rolled the paint on near to the bottom but knowing that baseboard was going on later, it didn't have to be fully down - it could be an inch or two off the floor.

Anyway, anyone who has painted rooms such as bedrooms etc., it's normal to have to paint along the baseboard or ceiling etc. probably with the edges masked off.  This is totally normal to painting rooms and not a big deal.

I realize that when the layout comes down, I'll have to do some work to restore the room to a "finished" appearance, such as mud/spackle the holes in the wall where brackets were mounted etc., and painted over.  All standard stuff.

The good thing about doing these things up front is it minimizes having to do more later when the house is sold or you down size.

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:54 PM

 My new idea for mounting the layout to the wall means no need to paint any of the wall blue, both the upper and lower decks will have an installed backdrop that stands away from the wall, so painting the whole thing plain old builder's white leaves it in the most useable state for the next person.

                                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:23 PM

rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.  

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 1:31 PM

 Add in the health insurance deductible for when I fall off the things and crack my head on the CEMENT FLOOR. Plus those wouldn't hold me, I need a high weight rating. Yeah, extension handle for the roller, and those shields used for spray painting so I don't have to tape off along the floor. I'd spray it, but I'd have to shut off the furnace and water heater (gas) and find a way to ventilate the area, all the openings are on the same side of the room. I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed. The rest will all be under the layout or behind the baseboard radiators.

                                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by Pruitt on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 12:23 PM

I was thinking that drywall stilts might be useful for you, then I checked out prices. The cheap ones at Home Depot are $100 and are rated for 228 lbs. 

The handle extension will be WAY cheaper!

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:11 AM

 Good question. I already told the contractor they may have a week to go work on other projects since I doubt it will get done in a single weekend, even with two of us. Plus she can't reach the top - the basement is deep enough that the walls are a full 8' high - which makes it easy to install drywall, but even for me I will probably want a short handle extension for the roller handle just so I don't have to stretch constantly.

 In addition to all the walls, I have to sand and paint the stairs, too. 

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:13 PM

rrinker

 Framing went up for the walls on either side of the stairs, as well as wiring for the new overhead lights. Drywall is coming tomorrow and going up this week. Might be ready for painting by the weekend, at least part of it. 

                                      --Randy 

Randy, are you going to be able to hold your wife to her promise to join you in painting the drywall? Kisses

Good looking, quality work on the framework. I should finiish my baement.  Yes

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:07 PM

 Framing went up for the walls on either side of the stairs, as well as wiring for the new overhead lights. Drywall is coming tomorrow and going up this week. Might be ready for painting by the weekend, at least part of it. 

                                      --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, January 19, 2020 7:13 PM

 Not much to report. Wiring for the new outlets is roughed in, and I got most of the leftover nails and staples from the old carpet out of the stairs. Problem with all the former stuff being stacked in the garage - I can;t reach a lot of my tools. I need a light to see what I'm going on the top couple of stairs. Then it will be time to sand them down to prep for paint (contractor isn't doing this part).

Also thought of another way to attach they layout to the walls that will make more efficient use of strips cut from plywood. Lag bolt on vertical L girders. For each deck plus the top cap - on one side, they get screws in face to face with the part of the L that sticks out. On the other side, secure with metal corner braces. I figure this can handle a 24" deep section. Alternately, might also add a steel 90 either on the bottom or on the top. I was also figuring on installing the horizontals prior to bolting each upright to the wall - so I will run a couple of screws in from the back as well.

                         --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:11 AM

SeeYou190

Randy, that looks great.

.

How excited are you getting for your new layout? I just can't imagine.

.

-Kevin

.

 

 I can't wait until it's done and ready. Trying not to jump the gun - I almost placed an order for roadbed. ANd I still have to determine my ideal deck heights. I need some different clamps, all I had handy were some of the spring type, and trying to hold some scraps to the studs didn't work too well. It's easy to mock things up now, before the drywall goes on.

 WHich also reminds me, I was pointed to a non-box store supplier which has the good 13 plys actual 3/4" thick (not 23/32) plywood, but I was under the impression they were wholesalers only. I need to call and see if they will sell to individuals. If not, my contractor said they'd go get it for me. I just have no place to stack up a bunch of 4x8 sheets right now.

                                         --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:07 AM

Doughless

Very nice.  Very professional looking.

 

 That's because professionals are doing it, not an amateur like me. Laugh

                                     --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:53 AM

Randy, that looks great.

.

How excited are you getting for your new layout? I just can't imagine.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:21 AM

Very nice.  Very professional looking.

- Douglas

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 7:08 PM

 Latest update - now the walls are all framed up, and the stairs have been changed to straight.

 Looking in to the inner part, yard will be on left, town on right:

Helix will go at the end of this short wall here:

Standing where the helix will go. S&L branch will go along the outside of the wall:

Looking back down the other way outside of the wall:

Today they finished framing and insulating around the exterior door, and started placing the outlets.

                                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, January 10, 2020 6:20 PM

I installed my suspended ceiling some 25 years ago. At the time I bought decent 2' x 4' "troffer" fixtures with two, big magnetic ballasts and four T-12 lamps.

Some years later I converted them to electronic ballasts and T-8 lamps. Ballasts can be had in low, medium and high outputs. The wattage calculations (ballast factor) are different for each.

Even with electronic ballasts there was still a 60 hertz hum which I disliked very much. Over the past few years I again rebuilt the original fixtures and now have 48" LED tubes in place of the T-8 lamps. It requires re-wiring the "tombstone" lampholders so one pin is hot and the other neutral. Ballast is removed.

Dead silent and quite bright with a reduction in load. Like Randy is planning I use the LED area lighting for "work sessions" and have dimmable, LED recessed mini-cans for times when I'm operating.

https://tinyurl.com/sj6ra5f

There are dozens of styles. The above are "dual-end" some are single end wired. Also color temperature and diffuser styles to suit.

Work lighting:

 IMG_8609_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

Running lighting:

 IMG_8624_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I had one more old fluorescent troffer in my work shop that I seldom turned on since it was an original with the five-pound, noisy, magnetic ballasts in it.

Now that I've "upgraded" it to LED tubes I use it all the time. No Buzzzz!

Good Luck, Ed

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, January 10, 2020 5:36 PM

I recently changed some of the lighting in my layout room, which had 29 double-tube fluorescent fixtures  (2 8'ers and 27 4'ers, plus two LED bulbs as "fill" lighting for a couple of dark corners under the upper level). 

I removed five of the 4' fluorescent fixtures, mainly due to their location, which had left some foreground areas in shadow.  Part of that was due to the grid of the suspended ceiling, and part of it caused by immoveable obstructions above that ceiling - mainly a 35' long steel beam.

After rearranging the ceiling's gridwork, where necessary, I installed 14 LED lights in the ceiling tiles where the fluorescents were originally.

Here's the fluorescents over the staging areas, set back due to the steel beam, the presence of which is indicated by the shadow in the aisle-side of the lighting panels...

...and the same area with 3 LED lights...

On the opposite side of the aisle, fluorescents are still in place...

...and also around the corner, at left, in the preceding photo...

...and up the opposite side of the same aisle...

 

In the photo below, the fluorescent fixtures in the left- and right-foreground were removed, along with another, out-of-view, to the left...

...and this is roughly the same area with the LEDs in place...

...and finally, an overview of the area now lit by the LEDs...

I am tempted to replace all of the six fluorescents remaining above  the single level of the layout.  That would require another nine LEDs, but I'll wait until they go on sale in the Spring.

The upper and lower levels of the doubledecked portion of the layout are a different situation, as the light sources are much closer to the layout. 
The fluorescents do a good job of spreading the light, while the beam angle of the illumination coming from the LEDs is 120º, which  would require them to be placed closer together than those over the single-level areas, in order to achieve an even over-all coverage of light.

Wayne

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:17 PM

riogrande5761

It sounds like putting the lights on a different circuit solved the main problem. 

My ceiling lights are on a different circuit than my 2 RR room 15 amp circuits that  were installed for the layout room and will be layout only.  Your layout MUCH larger than mine so I can see the need for the higher amp circuits.

 

 

At the time (5 years ago) my train layout space was being built the LED lights/fixtures cost a lot more AND they didn't produce nearly as much light as the dual T8 fixtures so I would have needed even more of them.  It's been almost 5 years and none of my T8 bulbs have had any issues.  I don't know if the most recent iteration of LED light fixtures change that equation but when time comes to start replacing T8 bulbs and/or fixtures it will be assessed.  First I need to figure out how I'm going to provide layout lighting in the areas where there is not currently LED strip layout lighting. :)

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, January 10, 2020 12:06 PM

Onewolf

My train layout room electrical was designed with two 20AMP circuits for the outlets around the room with one of the outlets being 'switched' with a wall switch. The 'switched' wall outlet was intended to be the primary on/off switch for the layout power/control.

The room also has 15 dual 32w (960watts) T8 flourescent ceiling light fixtures for room lighting that were _supposed_ to be on their own circuit.  Unfortunately I did not notice that the electrician had daisy chained the room lighting onto one of the 20AMP circuits until well into the layout build.

As I continued to add power supplies for the layout there came a point when the 20AMP breaker intermittantly started to pop when I powered up both the 'layout' and the room lighting. That's when I figured out the lights were on the same circuit as the switched outlet. The layout now has 16 power supplies that power up when the layout is 'turned on' so there is a considerable startup surge current on power-up.  During normal operation the layout pulls about 5 amps (I have a plug-in ammeter device that displays the real-time layout power usage). The biggest consumer of layout power is the four 15AMP 12V power supplies used for the LED strip layout lighting. I balanced the layout LED strip lighting circuits so each one pulls between 4 and 6 amps (of 12V).

Fortunately the room lighting electrical power was daisy chained from the layout power wall switch which made it simple to add an additional 15 amp circuit from the main breaker panel to run a circuit dedicated to just the room lighting.  Which solved the breaker pop when powering up the layout/room lighting.

 

Don't LED figures use less power and have longer life?  T8 flourescents have a much shorter life span is my understanding - I've had them go bad after 3 years in the old fixtures I still have and am using in my workbench area.

It sounds like putting the lights on a different circuit solved the main problem. 

My ceiling lights are on a different circuit than my 2 RR room 15 amp circuits that  were installed for the layout room and will be layout only.  Your layout MUCH larger than mine so I can see the need for the higher amp circuits.

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:36 AM

 I'll be having a lot of LED lighting power supplies. You can;t chain too many strings together - same has having too long a wire run, you drop too much voltage, so it will be a lot of smaller power supplies. A 5 meter RGB strand takes 2-3 amps , and I will have 3 other strands (2 whie, 1 blue), so that's around 6 amps max. The controllers handle 12 channels, 12 amps, so basically every 10 meters along each deck, I need a 12 amp power supply (at 12 volts). At 80% efficiency, that's 1.5 amps at 120V each. Not counting branch lines, that's maybe 5 power supplies per deck, round off and say 8 amps at 120VAC just for the lightign of ONE deck. DOuble that, just for the LIGHTING. 

 Mayeb all this 20 amp stuff I did isn;t overkill after all...

Though I noticed, they dropped off the supplies needed to install all this yesterday, and they are putting in 15 amp outlets. Breakers are 20 amp, wire is #12. They did get, as requested, the heavy duty type outlets, not the crappy builder ones that fall apart after a couple of years. Guess they've done enough replacing - I've owned 3 homes and repalced the outlets in 4 because they were all worn out.

                     --Randy

 


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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:05 AM

Today, even on a large layout with DCC and complex controls, power to run the trains is still not much of an issue.

The thing that really changes the game is layout lighting, something that has become more important and more complex.

LED'S will start shifting that,  but it is still a major consideration.

My DC layout has 10 Aristo Craft wireless throttles each with a 4 amp power supply. That is only 5 amps at 120 volts. Even if other control power needs triple or quadruple that, that is still way less than the three 15 amp circuits my 1600 sq ft space would require as "living space" under the NEC.

Until we get to lighting, then it might be really easy to load up two or three more circuits to light a layout that fills the 1600 sq ft.........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, January 10, 2020 7:38 AM

My train layout room electrical was designed with two 20AMP circuits for the outlets around the room with one of the outlets being 'switched' with a wall switch. The 'switched' wall outlet was intended to be the primary on/off switch for the layout power/control.

The room also has 15 dual 32w (960watts) T8 flourescent ceiling light fixtures for room lighting that were _supposed_ to be on their own circuit.  Unfortunately I did not notice that the electrician had daisy chained the room lighting onto one of the 20AMP circuits until well into the layout build.

As I continued to add power supplies for the layout there came a point when the 20AMP breaker intermittantly started to pop when I powered up both the 'layout' and the room lighting. That's when I figured out the lights were on the same circuit as the switched outlet. The layout now has 16 power supplies that power up when the layout is 'turned on' so there is a considerable startup surge current on power-up.  During normal operation the layout pulls about 5 amps (I have a plug-in ammeter device that displays the real-time layout power usage). The biggest consumer of layout power is the four 15AMP 12V power supplies used for the LED strip layout lighting. I balanced the layout LED strip lighting circuits so each one pulls between 4 and 6 amps (of 12V).

Fortunately the room lighting electrical power was daisy chained from the layout power wall switch which made it simple to add an additional 15 amp circuit from the main breaker panel to run a circuit dedicated to just the room lighting.  Which solved the breaker pop when powering up the layout/room lighting.

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

- Photo album of layout construction -

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, January 10, 2020 7:19 AM

Doughless
I feel like you're upset and some of that is directed at me since mine was the last comment.  I was simply explaining what I have learned about the number of outlets relative to circuit capacity, and while its convenient to have a lot of outlets, it also it matters to not overload circuits with a bunch of outlets for convenience.  I certainly didn't suggest you should have done anything differently.  No worries, hopefully. 

Nah.  No worries.

As I have been evaluating the DCC power demands of the modest planned layout, it looks like the two 15 amp circuits that will be dedicated to the layout will be more than enough; in otherwords I've been conservative and should be more than fine.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, January 10, 2020 5:55 AM

doctorwayne

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
...You have electric baseboard heat? I hope your power rates are low. That would be very expensive to run here, and this is a much warmer climate.......

 

The power rates were low when I built the house 32 years ago, but they've climbed considerably.
Several years ago, the provincial government offered incentives to builders and homeowners to install electric furnaces (forced air) rather than gas-fired ones, so I contacted them to point out that baseboard heaters were more energy efficient, and questioned why those installations would receive incentives, while my already in-place heating would not qualify for either lower rates, or a rebate on my current rates. 
Nothing was done, and rates continued to rise, and we were on the verge of converting to gas.  However, our bills have now dropped considerably, and it appears as if a rebate is responsible, even though no official mention of it was ever, to my knowledfge, made, nor were we, as recipients, ever personally notified.  

I'd prefer to move to a smaller house, but would likely have to convert this one to gas first, as people are leery of the costs of  electric heating, which might devalue the price they'd be willing to pay.

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a gas-heated house after having an electrically heated one, but that's just my preferences.  I've lived in houses with coal heat, kerosene heat, oil heat, and hot water heat (don't know if it was oil-or gas-fired), but I liked the electric heat best - clean and quiet, no stink, and no explosions. Smile, Wink & Grin

Wayne

 

There is nothing wrong with the comfort factors of electric baseboard heat, just its cost of operation. For that reason it is almost a non starter in most of the US, where power rates vary considerably by region and source of generation.

In my opinion as a residential designer, hot water heat, no matter the fuel, is the best. The effect is even more "gentle" and evenly applied than electric baseboard, it offers the same ability for zoning and separate control and with modern equipment is very efficient.

I do not like forced air heat from any source/fuel.

I have had both gas and oil fired hot water heat, and would have either again. I have designed and installed a number of hot water systems over the years. 

Fears of fire or explosion are non existant in my mind. It takes a perfect storm of errors or defects and is EXTREEMLY rare, unless done on purpose........

It sounds as if the government there is more "involved" in these choices than they are here. Here the market and regional needs/wants/availablity is what drive the choices.

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by Doughless on Friday, January 10, 2020 5:22 AM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 
Doughless

 

 

In kichens the code requires 20 amp circuits (which usually only have 15 amp outlets) and requires that outlets be on alternating circuits as we move "down" the counter.

In other words a kitchen counter with six outlets from left to right, would be arranged so that the first is on circuit A, the next on circuit B, the next on circuit C, the next back on circuit A, etc.

This is done to spread out the load over the required circuits just as you suggest.

But, to do this to all general outlets, throught the whole property would have several problems.

The first is cost.....

The second is that the code requires circuits to be identified in the panel, "master bedroom", "hall bath", "water heater" (it is not a hot water heater), etc, etc.

This task would become complex and expensive beyond all practicality if circuits were randomized, and that would still not insure trouble free operation.

As Randy said, that is what circuit breakers are for......

A better solution is to over build like I did in my 1901 Queen Anne, using one 20 amp circuit to handle general outlets for only 400 to 500 sq ft, rather than the code legal 800 sq ft.

I don't know anything about Russian immigrants or what that has to do with anything, but a well wired house works fine, and a poorly or outdated one does not. I've rewired more than few a 100 years old and older..........

And brought a lot of ones from the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's up to current standards......none of them have burned down........

Sheldon 

 

In my experience, just to make sure you know we are on the same page, what you are doing would not cause any lender any issues.  Its code, and it sounds like you take extra steps to go beyond.  The simple point I was trying to make with Jim was that outlets provide an invitation to plug something into it.  Uninformed occupants don't know what goes on behind the walls.  They understand that plugging in 2 power strips into one outlet and loading up the strips with tvs, computers, shreaders, chargers, and the occasional hair dryers will tax the system, but they don't make that connection simply by seeing a bunch of wall outlets.  I wasn't saying that loading up a circuit with outlets is anything wrong.  Yes, the breaker prevents it from being a big deal, but we don't want to install somehting into the walls that's going to invite occupants to trip the breaker a lot. Granted, that probably is more of a concern for rental properties like apartments and condos and not so much for owner occupied single family dwellings. 

As far as codes:  The codes have intent buried in the text, but a person can't get around the code just  because they have have a different intent.  Example:  as you know, the 12 foot spacing thing has to do with the number of linear feet finished walls can have before there has to be an outlet.  13 feet of wall with no outlet is a violation.

But that's for "living space"  Some people have walk in closets bigger than some bedrooms, but its okay to have just one outlet in that room because the code doesn't expect people to be using appliances, lamps, stereos, or TVs in their WIC. Same thing with finished garages.  One outlet passes.  Code doesn't expect somebody to use it as a workshop.  The code intends people to park cars in it.

But finish a basement, and the code inspectors tend to call that living space.  They assume you have the intent on putting big screen TVs down there, popcorn makers, microwaves, etc, so not only do they expect an outlet every 12 feet, a strict inspector might expect more circuits depending upon how big the basement is.  The fact that we want to finish our basement to use as maybe a 15 amp total draw train room doesn't change the inspector's mind, because the intent of the code implies that 99% of the people who will buy your house intend for the finished basement to be living space.

Nothing about what I was saying was a judgmental thing about how anybody conducts their business.  Apologies if it came off that way.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 11,331 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, January 9, 2020 11:38 PM

doctorwayne
Several years ago, the provincial government offered incentives to builders and homeowners to install electric furnaces (forced air)

Sometimes the Government messes up! (Sometimes?!?!?Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaugh) In my limited experience selling installed home improvements, electric forced air furnaces were more trouble than they were worth. One of the biggest problems seemed to be excess humidity. When I was on a window call and the home owners were complaining about condensation on their windows, one of the first things I looked at was the heat source. If it was electric forced air I told them that new windows might not solve the condensation problem. I always carried a humidity meter. When the skeptics suggested that they didn't have a humidity problem, that it was just bad windows, once the meter got to 60% or more their eyes seemed to widen considerably!

That was a long time ago. Things may have changed.

Dave

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Canada, eh?
  • 10,510 posts
Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, January 9, 2020 11:21 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL
...You have electric baseboard heat? I hope your power rates are low. That would be very expensive to run here, and this is a much warmer climate.......

The power rates were low when I built the house 32 years ago, but they've climbed considerably.
Several years ago, the provincial government offered incentives to builders and homeowners to install electric furnaces (forced air) rather than gas-fired ones, so I contacted them to point out that baseboard heaters were more energy efficient, and questioned why those installations would receive incentives, while my already in-place heating would not qualify for either lower rates, or a rebate on my current rates. 
Nothing was done, and rates continued to rise, and we were on the verge of converting to gas.  However, our bills have now dropped considerably, and it appears as if a rebate is responsible, even though no official mention of it was ever, to my knowledfge, made, nor were we, as recipients, ever personally notified.  

I'd prefer to move to a smaller house, but would likely have to convert this one to gas first, as people are leery of the costs of  electric heating, which might devalue the price they'd be willing to pay.

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a gas-heated house after having an electrically heated one, but that's just my preferences.  I've lived in houses with coal heat, kerosene heat, oil heat, and hot water heat (don't know if it was oil-or gas-fired), but I liked the electric heat best - clean and quiet, no stink, and no explosions. Smile, Wink & Grin

Wayne

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 9,216 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Thursday, January 9, 2020 9:23 PM

Wayne,

I have no working knowledge of electrical codes in Canada, the differences you have noted are interesting to say the least.

Here in the US, the NEC, and some provisions of the IRC, which really just repeat the NEC, are generally the law of the land. But each county/city/township government is free to amend, interpret, and add to the code as they see fit (close to 40,000 separate counties, cities and townships that regulate their own building construction). A few places have much stricker rules about some things then as provided for in the NEC.

But here in Maryland, most everything is as per the NEC.

You mentioned split receptacles, the NEC allows that, but it is seldom done in that way here. 

Here in the US you cannot have 64 breakers in a single panel enclosure. I would be interested to see a picture and know the brand of the breaker panel.

The NEC restricts all panels to 42 branch spaces or less. Most 200 amp residential panels are no bigger than 40 spaces. So if you need more than that, you use the first panel to feed a sub panel. The breaker manufactuers do make "twin breakers" that put two breakers in one space, but if you filled a panel past 42 "branch switches", it would not pass inspection.

You have electric baseboard heat? I hope your power rates are low. That would be very expensive to run here, and this is a much warmer climate.......

Our new house (new to us, built in 1964) has electric baseboard heat in a sunroom (standard construction, well insulated, but lots of big windows and sliding door). If we run it much this time of year, it adds 20% to our combined gas and electric bill which comes from the same utility company.

The rest of the house is heated with natural gas fired hot water baseboard. One of my projects here is to install hot water heat in the sun room, it will likely not result in even a 5% cost increase compared to closing the door and not heating the sun room.

Our water heater is also gas, much cheaper to run than electric, and we cook on gas.

And since everyone is talking about layout wiring, my new to me train room basement in the 1964 house is pretty sparse on wiring, the previous owner (only previous owner) only used it for storage.

So I will be doing some moderately major wiring down there, lights, layout power, etc.

The house has a 200 amp main service, main panel in the attached garage, a 100 amp sub panel in the basement, and a 16KW backup generator with its transfer switch sub panel.

The basement sub panel has about 12 spare spaces, I will be just fine........

Although I can't really put all the layout wiring on the generator........

This house is very well wired. When we bought it I replaced all the switches and outlets, so I got a good feel for the condition of the wiring and the quality of the orignal work. I am happy.

Sheldon 

    

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: Canada, eh?
  • 10,510 posts
Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, January 9, 2020 8:49 PM

The electrical codes vary from place to place.  Here in Ontario, standard house wiring for lighting and receptacles is on 15 amp circuits with #14 wire, although if you have need of 20 amp circuits for certain items, they're allowed, as mentioned, with #12 wire.

The 15 amp circuits are limited to a combined total of 12 light fixtures and/or receptacles.  Fridges and freezers are limited to one per circuit, as are washing machines and sump pumps - for this home, I wired them as split receptacles, as they're located  close together.
For kitchen counters and dining areas, all receptacles must be split - two circuits for each receptacle, and, of course, the receptacle modified to accommodate that.

My house is electrically heated, and all baseboard heaters are on 20 amp/240volt breakers, generally one circuit per room, even if the heaters are fairly small and there could be more on the same circuit.

Air conditioning, water heater, etc. are all on their own designated circuits/breakers, and there's a total (counting the double ones) of 64 breakers on the panel.

I did the wiring myself, and because the inspector from Ontario Hydro was aware of that, and that I was not a trained electrician, he went over everything rather thoroughly.  At the end, he signed off on the job, and declared it probably the neatest job he had ever seen - no faults whatsoever.

It helped that I had bought the code book and read-up on it before tackling the job, and I actually enjoyed doing it - a lot easier wiring a new house under construction than trying to re-wire an older house needing upgrades, although I've since done a couple of those, too.

Wayne

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