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Basement stage 2 under way! Pics added

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, January 10, 2020 5:55 AM

doctorwayne

 

 
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
...You have electric baseboard heat? I hope your power rates are low. That would be very expensive to run here, and this is a much warmer climate.......

 

The power rates were low when I built the house 32 years ago, but they've climbed considerably.
Several years ago, the provincial government offered incentives to builders and homeowners to install electric furnaces (forced air) rather than gas-fired ones, so I contacted them to point out that baseboard heaters were more energy efficient, and questioned why those installations would receive incentives, while my already in-place heating would not qualify for either lower rates, or a rebate on my current rates. 
Nothing was done, and rates continued to rise, and we were on the verge of converting to gas.  However, our bills have now dropped considerably, and it appears as if a rebate is responsible, even though no official mention of it was ever, to my knowledfge, made, nor were we, as recipients, ever personally notified.  

I'd prefer to move to a smaller house, but would likely have to convert this one to gas first, as people are leery of the costs of  electric heating, which might devalue the price they'd be willing to pay.

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a gas-heated house after having an electrically heated one, but that's just my preferences.  I've lived in houses with coal heat, kerosene heat, oil heat, and hot water heat (don't know if it was oil-or gas-fired), but I liked the electric heat best - clean and quiet, no stink, and no explosions. Smile, Wink & Grin

Wayne

 

There is nothing wrong with the comfort factors of electric baseboard heat, just its cost of operation. For that reason it is almost a non starter in most of the US, where power rates vary considerably by region and source of generation.

In my opinion as a residential designer, hot water heat, no matter the fuel, is the best. The effect is even more "gentle" and evenly applied than electric baseboard, it offers the same ability for zoning and separate control and with modern equipment is very efficient.

I do not like forced air heat from any source/fuel.

I have had both gas and oil fired hot water heat, and would have either again. I have designed and installed a number of hot water systems over the years. 

Fears of fire or explosion are non existant in my mind. It takes a perfect storm of errors or defects and is EXTREEMLY rare, unless done on purpose........

It sounds as if the government there is more "involved" in these choices than they are here. Here the market and regional needs/wants/availablity is what drive the choices.

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, January 10, 2020 7:19 AM

Doughless
I feel like you're upset and some of that is directed at me since mine was the last comment.  I was simply explaining what I have learned about the number of outlets relative to circuit capacity, and while its convenient to have a lot of outlets, it also it matters to not overload circuits with a bunch of outlets for convenience.  I certainly didn't suggest you should have done anything differently.  No worries, hopefully. 

Nah.  No worries.

As I have been evaluating the DCC power demands of the modest planned layout, it looks like the two 15 amp circuits that will be dedicated to the layout will be more than enough; in otherwords I've been conservative and should be more than fine.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, January 10, 2020 7:38 AM

My train layout room electrical was designed with two 20AMP circuits for the outlets around the room with one of the outlets being 'switched' with a wall switch. The 'switched' wall outlet was intended to be the primary on/off switch for the layout power/control.

The room also has 15 dual 32w (960watts) T8 flourescent ceiling light fixtures for room lighting that were _supposed_ to be on their own circuit.  Unfortunately I did not notice that the electrician had daisy chained the room lighting onto one of the 20AMP circuits until well into the layout build.

As I continued to add power supplies for the layout there came a point when the 20AMP breaker intermittantly started to pop when I powered up both the 'layout' and the room lighting. That's when I figured out the lights were on the same circuit as the switched outlet. The layout now has 16 power supplies that power up when the layout is 'turned on' so there is a considerable startup surge current on power-up.  During normal operation the layout pulls about 5 amps (I have a plug-in ammeter device that displays the real-time layout power usage). The biggest consumer of layout power is the four 15AMP 12V power supplies used for the LED strip layout lighting. I balanced the layout LED strip lighting circuits so each one pulls between 4 and 6 amps (of 12V).

Fortunately the room lighting electrical power was daisy chained from the layout power wall switch which made it simple to add an additional 15 amp circuit from the main breaker panel to run a circuit dedicated to just the room lighting.  Which solved the breaker pop when powering up the layout/room lighting.

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:05 AM

Today, even on a large layout with DCC and complex controls, power to run the trains is still not much of an issue.

The thing that really changes the game is layout lighting, something that has become more important and more complex.

LED'S will start shifting that,  but it is still a major consideration.

My DC layout has 10 Aristo Craft wireless throttles each with a 4 amp power supply. That is only 5 amps at 120 volts. Even if other control power needs triple or quadruple that, that is still way less than the three 15 amp circuits my 1600 sq ft space would require as "living space" under the NEC.

Until we get to lighting, then it might be really easy to load up two or three more circuits to light a layout that fills the 1600 sq ft.........

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, January 10, 2020 10:36 AM

 I'll be having a lot of LED lighting power supplies. You can;t chain too many strings together - same has having too long a wire run, you drop too much voltage, so it will be a lot of smaller power supplies. A 5 meter RGB strand takes 2-3 amps , and I will have 3 other strands (2 whie, 1 blue), so that's around 6 amps max. The controllers handle 12 channels, 12 amps, so basically every 10 meters along each deck, I need a 12 amp power supply (at 12 volts). At 80% efficiency, that's 1.5 amps at 120V each. Not counting branch lines, that's maybe 5 power supplies per deck, round off and say 8 amps at 120VAC just for the lightign of ONE deck. DOuble that, just for the LIGHTING. 

 Mayeb all this 20 amp stuff I did isn;t overkill after all...

Though I noticed, they dropped off the supplies needed to install all this yesterday, and they are putting in 15 amp outlets. Breakers are 20 amp, wire is #12. They did get, as requested, the heavy duty type outlets, not the crappy builder ones that fall apart after a couple of years. Guess they've done enough replacing - I've owned 3 homes and repalced the outlets in 4 because they were all worn out.

                     --Randy

 


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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, January 10, 2020 12:06 PM

Onewolf

My train layout room electrical was designed with two 20AMP circuits for the outlets around the room with one of the outlets being 'switched' with a wall switch. The 'switched' wall outlet was intended to be the primary on/off switch for the layout power/control.

The room also has 15 dual 32w (960watts) T8 flourescent ceiling light fixtures for room lighting that were _supposed_ to be on their own circuit.  Unfortunately I did not notice that the electrician had daisy chained the room lighting onto one of the 20AMP circuits until well into the layout build.

As I continued to add power supplies for the layout there came a point when the 20AMP breaker intermittantly started to pop when I powered up both the 'layout' and the room lighting. That's when I figured out the lights were on the same circuit as the switched outlet. The layout now has 16 power supplies that power up when the layout is 'turned on' so there is a considerable startup surge current on power-up.  During normal operation the layout pulls about 5 amps (I have a plug-in ammeter device that displays the real-time layout power usage). The biggest consumer of layout power is the four 15AMP 12V power supplies used for the LED strip layout lighting. I balanced the layout LED strip lighting circuits so each one pulls between 4 and 6 amps (of 12V).

Fortunately the room lighting electrical power was daisy chained from the layout power wall switch which made it simple to add an additional 15 amp circuit from the main breaker panel to run a circuit dedicated to just the room lighting.  Which solved the breaker pop when powering up the layout/room lighting.

 

Don't LED figures use less power and have longer life?  T8 flourescents have a much shorter life span is my understanding - I've had them go bad after 3 years in the old fixtures I still have and am using in my workbench area.

It sounds like putting the lights on a different circuit solved the main problem. 

My ceiling lights are on a different circuit than my 2 RR room 15 amp circuits that  were installed for the layout room and will be layout only.  Your layout MUCH larger than mine so I can see the need for the higher amp circuits.

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, January 10, 2020 1:17 PM

riogrande5761

It sounds like putting the lights on a different circuit solved the main problem. 

My ceiling lights are on a different circuit than my 2 RR room 15 amp circuits that  were installed for the layout room and will be layout only.  Your layout MUCH larger than mine so I can see the need for the higher amp circuits.

 

 

At the time (5 years ago) my train layout space was being built the LED lights/fixtures cost a lot more AND they didn't produce nearly as much light as the dual T8 fixtures so I would have needed even more of them.  It's been almost 5 years and none of my T8 bulbs have had any issues.  I don't know if the most recent iteration of LED light fixtures change that equation but when time comes to start replacing T8 bulbs and/or fixtures it will be assessed.  First I need to figure out how I'm going to provide layout lighting in the areas where there is not currently LED strip layout lighting. :)

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, January 10, 2020 5:36 PM

I recently changed some of the lighting in my layout room, which had 29 double-tube fluorescent fixtures  (2 8'ers and 27 4'ers, plus two LED bulbs as "fill" lighting for a couple of dark corners under the upper level). 

I removed five of the 4' fluorescent fixtures, mainly due to their location, which had left some foreground areas in shadow.  Part of that was due to the grid of the suspended ceiling, and part of it caused by immoveable obstructions above that ceiling - mainly a 35' long steel beam.

After rearranging the ceiling's gridwork, where necessary, I installed 14 LED lights in the ceiling tiles where the fluorescents were originally.

Here's the fluorescents over the staging areas, set back due to the steel beam, the presence of which is indicated by the shadow in the aisle-side of the lighting panels...

...and the same area with 3 LED lights...

On the opposite side of the aisle, fluorescents are still in place...

...and also around the corner, at left, in the preceding photo...

...and up the opposite side of the same aisle...

 

In the photo below, the fluorescent fixtures in the left- and right-foreground were removed, along with another, out-of-view, to the left...

...and this is roughly the same area with the LEDs in place...

...and finally, an overview of the area now lit by the LEDs...

I am tempted to replace all of the six fluorescents remaining above  the single level of the layout.  That would require another nine LEDs, but I'll wait until they go on sale in the Spring.

The upper and lower levels of the doubledecked portion of the layout are a different situation, as the light sources are much closer to the layout. 
The fluorescents do a good job of spreading the light, while the beam angle of the illumination coming from the LEDs is 120º, which  would require them to be placed closer together than those over the single-level areas, in order to achieve an even over-all coverage of light.

Wayne

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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, January 10, 2020 6:20 PM

I installed my suspended ceiling some 25 years ago. At the time I bought decent 2' x 4' "troffer" fixtures with two, big magnetic ballasts and four T-12 lamps.

Some years later I converted them to electronic ballasts and T-8 lamps. Ballasts can be had in low, medium and high outputs. The wattage calculations (ballast factor) are different for each.

Even with electronic ballasts there was still a 60 hertz hum which I disliked very much. Over the past few years I again rebuilt the original fixtures and now have 48" LED tubes in place of the T-8 lamps. It requires re-wiring the "tombstone" lampholders so one pin is hot and the other neutral. Ballast is removed.

Dead silent and quite bright with a reduction in load. Like Randy is planning I use the LED area lighting for "work sessions" and have dimmable, LED recessed mini-cans for times when I'm operating.

https://tinyurl.com/sj6ra5f

There are dozens of styles. The above are "dual-end" some are single end wired. Also color temperature and diffuser styles to suit.

Work lighting:

 IMG_8609_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

Running lighting:

 IMG_8624_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I had one more old fluorescent troffer in my work shop that I seldom turned on since it was an original with the five-pound, noisy, magnetic ballasts in it.

Now that I've "upgraded" it to LED tubes I use it all the time. No Buzzzz!

Good Luck, Ed

 

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 7:08 PM

 Latest update - now the walls are all framed up, and the stairs have been changed to straight.

 Looking in to the inner part, yard will be on left, town on right:

Helix will go at the end of this short wall here:

Standing where the helix will go. S&L branch will go along the outside of the wall:

Looking back down the other way outside of the wall:

Today they finished framing and insulating around the exterior door, and started placing the outlets.

                                            --Randy

 


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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:21 AM

Very nice.  Very professional looking.

- Douglas

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:53 AM

Randy, that looks great.

.

How excited are you getting for your new layout? I just can't imagine.

.

-Kevin

.

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:07 AM

Doughless

Very nice.  Very professional looking.

 

 That's because professionals are doing it, not an amateur like me. Laugh

                                     --Randy

 


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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:11 AM

SeeYou190

Randy, that looks great.

.

How excited are you getting for your new layout? I just can't imagine.

.

-Kevin

.

 

 I can't wait until it's done and ready. Trying not to jump the gun - I almost placed an order for roadbed. ANd I still have to determine my ideal deck heights. I need some different clamps, all I had handy were some of the spring type, and trying to hold some scraps to the studs didn't work too well. It's easy to mock things up now, before the drywall goes on.

 WHich also reminds me, I was pointed to a non-box store supplier which has the good 13 plys actual 3/4" thick (not 23/32) plywood, but I was under the impression they were wholesalers only. I need to call and see if they will sell to individuals. If not, my contractor said they'd go get it for me. I just have no place to stack up a bunch of 4x8 sheets right now.

                                         --Randy

 


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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, January 19, 2020 7:13 PM

 Not much to report. Wiring for the new outlets is roughed in, and I got most of the leftover nails and staples from the old carpet out of the stairs. Problem with all the former stuff being stacked in the garage - I can;t reach a lot of my tools. I need a light to see what I'm going on the top couple of stairs. Then it will be time to sand them down to prep for paint (contractor isn't doing this part).

Also thought of another way to attach they layout to the walls that will make more efficient use of strips cut from plywood. Lag bolt on vertical L girders. For each deck plus the top cap - on one side, they get screws in face to face with the part of the L that sticks out. On the other side, secure with metal corner braces. I figure this can handle a 24" deep section. Alternately, might also add a steel 90 either on the bottom or on the top. I was also figuring on installing the horizontals prior to bolting each upright to the wall - so I will run a couple of screws in from the back as well.

                         --Randy

 


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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:07 PM

 Framing went up for the walls on either side of the stairs, as well as wiring for the new overhead lights. Drywall is coming tomorrow and going up this week. Might be ready for painting by the weekend, at least part of it. 

                                      --Randy

 


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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, January 20, 2020 7:13 PM

rrinker

 Framing went up for the walls on either side of the stairs, as well as wiring for the new overhead lights. Drywall is coming tomorrow and going up this week. Might be ready for painting by the weekend, at least part of it. 

                                      --Randy 

Randy, are you going to be able to hold your wife to her promise to join you in painting the drywall? Kisses

Good looking, quality work on the framework. I should finiish my baement.  Yes

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 7:11 AM

 Good question. I already told the contractor they may have a week to go work on other projects since I doubt it will get done in a single weekend, even with two of us. Plus she can't reach the top - the basement is deep enough that the walls are a full 8' high - which makes it easy to install drywall, but even for me I will probably want a short handle extension for the roller handle just so I don't have to stretch constantly.

 In addition to all the walls, I have to sand and paint the stairs, too. 

                                     --Randy

 


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Posted by Pruitt on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 12:23 PM

I was thinking that drywall stilts might be useful for you, then I checked out prices. The cheap ones at Home Depot are $100 and are rated for 228 lbs. 

The handle extension will be WAY cheaper!

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 1:31 PM

 Add in the health insurance deductible for when I fall off the things and crack my head on the CEMENT FLOOR. Plus those wouldn't hold me, I need a high weight rating. Yeah, extension handle for the roller, and those shields used for spray painting so I don't have to tape off along the floor. I'd spray it, but I'd have to shut off the furnace and water heater (gas) and find a way to ventilate the area, all the openings are on the same side of the room. I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed. The rest will all be under the layout or behind the baseboard radiators.

                                --Randy

 


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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:23 PM

rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.  

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

Rich

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:54 PM

 My new idea for mounting the layout to the wall means no need to paint any of the wall blue, both the upper and lower decks will have an installed backdrop that stands away from the wall, so painting the whole thing plain old builder's white leaves it in the most useable state for the next person.

                                          --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:50 AM

richhotrain
 
rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.   

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

 

Rich


That's pretty much it.  I finished my basement and wanted it to be fully finished before starting on the layout.  My wife would have insisted on it if I decided to not do that.  We wanted it fully finished so it would be done and we could advertise the home with a fully finished basement for that some day when we would eventally move out or downsize.

I painted all the drywall from floor to ceiling before the drop ceiling was installed.  That way the drop ceiling rails would be attached to painted drywall - a standard order of finshing.

As to the bottom, as Rich mentioned, I didn't paint the walls completely to the floor.  I rolled the paint on near to the bottom but knowing that baseboard was going on later, it didn't have to be fully down - it could be an inch or two off the floor.

Anyway, anyone who has painted rooms such as bedrooms etc., it's normal to have to paint along the baseboard or ceiling etc. probably with the edges masked off.  This is totally normal to painting rooms and not a big deal.

I realize that when the layout comes down, I'll have to do some work to restore the room to a "finished" appearance, such as mud/spackle the holes in the wall where brackets were mounted etc., and painted over.  All standard stuff.

The good thing about doing these things up front is it minimizes having to do more later when the house is sold or you down size.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:25 AM

richhotrain

 

 
rrinker

I am SO not crawling on the floor with a paintbrush to make sure it's painted right to the very bottom. And the part people will see, the bottom edge will be hidden behind the moulding that is part of the flooring to be installed.  

 

 

Yep, and that is exactly what professional painters do in new construction. They rely on the moulding to finish off the paint job.  Yes

 

Rich

 

We never do finish painting before carpentry is done. Drywall priming yes, ceilings maybe.......walls never.

Sheldon

 

 

    

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Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:45 AM

Randy, your excitement is contagious!  Fun to see progress being made.  I'm continuing to work on my backdrop - which was delayed when I realized I had to do some remedial work on my exterior basement wall in the layout area.  I'm learning to just put my head down and plow forward.

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:53 PM

 

 Lots of progress today. Wiring, and a whole bunch of drywall went up.

 

North wall, exit to staging will be through the wall yet to go up to the left, which is where the stairs are.

 

South wall, left is where the yard will be.

 

Other side of the room where the yard will go. Town will go along this wall.

 

At the end of the short wall in the center is where the helix will go.

 

View in from the other side of the room, yard will be on the right, town on left. There will be a removeable section across in front of the furnace and water heater.

Not sure if anything will be taped and mudded for painting by this weekend or not. Might be another week until that stage.

                                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by York1 on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:59 PM

Looks like a lot of progress.  You'll be laying track soon.

One thing that is not allowed in my area is running wire under floor joists in the basement.  In my area, the wires have to go through holes in the joists (at least that's what I was told -- I'm not an expert).  I would think that some boards nailed across the bottoms of the joists running beside the Romex would make it legal.

John  --  Saints Fan  

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:07 PM

 All the new stuff goes through holes. What they did, and what was allowed when the house was built back in 1973, I have no idea. And I'm not sure when the original owners did the really poor job of finishing the basement, all those light cans are old leftover junk that are being removed. It's all down on those cobbled together supports because there was a drop ceiling before, going to be one again.

                           --Randy


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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, January 23, 2020 4:40 PM

 Wasn't sure if they were even here today, but they did more wiring rough in, got all the outlet circuits run back to where the switches will be, and from there back to the panel. Aslo looks like they were testing the new lighting, there are temporary screw bases connected to the boxes where the new LED panels will go in the drop ceiling.

                                       --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 27, 2020 5:49 PM

Most of the drywall is now up. They were here working Saturdsay and today.

North wall. Side of stairs is not done yet, upper left is where trains will duck through the wall into staging.

It's like a cave down here with just the temporary contractor lights. This is the section where the yard will be on the left, town on right, engine facility inside the curve in the distance.

 

The short hook in the wall, helix goes at the end (not capped off yet), branch goes along the wall in the middle. Extra spaces in the box not yet wired on the wall at the base of the stairs will have the illuminated switches to control the room outlets.3 circuits because yes, here there IS a limit to the number of outlets per circuit, even if they are 20 amp circuits.

 

Even part of the bathroom is now walled in.

 

They were thinking of having most of it taped and mudded by the end of the week so I can start painting this weekend. Not sure of they will make it, the contractor is a father-son team and the dad was down today with a kidney stone. If he's not able to help this week, it will probably be another week before things are ready.

                                 --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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