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NOW WHAT?????

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Posted by bearman on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:37 AM

Rio, the OP is looking at running a passenger train, OO scale, through the English countryside.  And I have no idea about who makes OO scale locomotives that are/were in passenger service in Merry Old England.  At this point, and with due respect to Rich, whose advice I always listen too, maybe Doc should sit back and take Byron up on his oobservations.

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:45 AM

riogrande5761
 
richhotrain

I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in.

Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment.

Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon.

Rich 

Rich, have you looked at the benchwork dimensions?  Plot complication showing up on sensors now captain!  On the right side with a width of 36 inches, curve radii with HO track for OO trains will be a sardine tight 16 inches - so unless the OP is going to run a GE 44 tonner and only 40 freight cars, or equivelent short British OO equipment, that may be a "slight" problem.  Just sayin... 

And I say, let him have at it. Give it a try. Learn the hard way, but the right way. Let him learn from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with that.

As they say, you can hand a man a fish and feed him for a day. Or, he can learn to fish and feed himself for a lifetime.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:45 AM

bearman, the topic is getting long but yeah, I am aware of the OO trains and the setting - my wifes homeland.   On the right side of the layout, me thinks it's not going to work.

As for Byron, I may not have a practice set up to design layouts, but I am a student of layout design and am of the same mind and voice on most of the ideas here.  My handicap not having much time to spend on layout design with a long work days and a wife who keeps me pretty busy at home with a honey-do list.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by bearman on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:52 AM

Rio, obviously it is up to the OP to sift through all of the comments and determine his future course of action.

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:55 AM

richhotrain
 

And I say, let him have at it. Give it a try. Learn the hard way, but the right way. Let him learn from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing like hands on experience.  But I am an advocate of aprofit not be averse to cutting down the left side and widening the right side, after scaling things out on paper of course!  Wood is a pretty easy medium to work with so that wouldn't bother me too much and I consider myself pretty ameture at wood working.

As they say, you can hand a man a fish and feed him for a day. Or, he can learn to fish and feed himself for a lifetime.

Rich 

There is that.  Sure, I can see the temptation to go the easy path and just add a lift out bridge.

 

Bear, maybe he must listen to Yoda!

“Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.” Yoda

“You must unlearn what you have unlearned.” Yoda

“Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.” Yoda

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by bearman on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:59 AM

Rio...huh?

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by UNCLEBUTCH on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:21 AM

richhotrain

I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in.

Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment.

Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon.

Rich

 

Thats what I said long time ago.

Everybody is telling him what he MUST do.We even have kids with no experence giving advice.

Let the man lay some track,run some trains. Don't have to be perfect,or meet anyone's approval.

The way this is going he will soon feel overwhelmed, that its not worth it and quit before he starts

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:10 AM

UNCLEBUTCH
 
richhotrain

I have been lurking, so I gotta jump in.

Doc, you built the framework. Forget the books for the moment.

Go buy some track and start laying it. Buy a locomotive and some rolling stock (freight or passenger cars) and run some trains. That will raise issues, questions, and observations to bring back to the forum for resolution. You are worried about too much, too soon.

Rich 

Thats what I said long time ago.

Everybody is telling him what he MUST do.We even have kids with no experence giving advice.

Let the man lay some track,run some trains. Don't have to be perfect,or meet anyone's approval.

The way this is going he will soon feel overwhelmed, that its not worth it and quit before he starts 

Amen.

Alton Junction

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:52 AM

Thanks to all! I am going to heed your advice and start working on my layout...if the bench needs rebuilding, then so be it but I'm sure it will turn out to be a labor of love to build the thing myeself with the knowledge I have gleaned from all of you and the books I now have on order. Just ordered Ian Rice's book Layout Design. Now, to the good work!  Doc

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 11:26 AM

Sounds like the OP is on the right track.

 

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by bearman on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:30 PM

Doc, keep us apprised of your progress and dont worry about a failure.  One learns from ones failures, and there are any number of people on this forum who would be happy to help you out with any problem.

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:34 PM

I may be inexperienced but I'm not unknowledgable (that's probably not a word) I have spend the past 2 years reading learning gathering information on model railroading, I have spent the past 3 months deeply engrossed in books about layout construction, I was just passing along the knowledge I have. After all this IS a community.

Steven

Crooner, Imagineer, High School Graduate, living with Aspergers, President of the Republica Pacifica micronation,  President of the NWP-SWP System.

Hook'em Longhorns! 

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Posted by tedtedderson on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 1:19 PM

It looks like OO is included.  I used the program and it helped a lot.  You can print your design 1:1 which in my opinion was good "just to see" vs trying to use as a template for track laying, but exciting nonetheless.  A lot faster than using a ruler, compass, slide-rule, abacus, protractor, etc. 

Very useful is that once you have your design on screen the program can tell you the minimum radius of what you designed. 

One thing it won't tell however is if your design will be fun.  

Sure speeds up the process though, imho.  As said earlier, your results may vary. 

https://www.scarm.info/index.php#features

T e d 

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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 2:54 PM

In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake that the OP has already made by building benchwork first, doc try to come up with a simple once around plan, have 2 sidings one by each station, have a small 4 track yard (can be stub or through),  two or three "industries" (like a dairy farm, distillery, and a freight house) that's it, if it's worth doing, DO IT RIGHT.

Far as a swing gate you want to wire the gate in a way that it completes a circuit so if you accidentally leave it open trains can't go crashing to the floor! You could also make it like a draw bridge the two halves hinge up and block the path of a train.

MOST IMPORTANTLY! 

JOIN A CLUB!

You will gain knowledge and experience that can only be acquired hands on, you will not regret it!

Steven

Crooner, Imagineer, High School Graduate, living with Aspergers, President of the Republica Pacifica micronation,  President of the NWP-SWP System.

Hook'em Longhorns! 

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Posted by cuyama on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 3:01 PM

NWP SWP
In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake

Concur. That's why, in my humble (but experienced) opinion, it might be better for folks who have never designed any layout to-scale using any tool to refrain from posting their opinions as imperatives.

With some changes to the benchwork, the Original Poster can have a continuous run with no bridge needed. He can also have a yard, turntable, and roundhouse. It’s all a matter of trade-offs in layout design. Not absolutes.

Byron

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 4:27 PM

By way of example, here is one early draft scale drawing of my planned layout.  On square is a 6x6 inches or two squares is a foot.  I have only roughed in the major elements at this point - basic track arranement with no sidings or details filled in.  The pencil is lightly drawn to make it easy to erase and edit and it's just a smart phone photo which I tweaked a bit:

Bottom is 27 1/2 feet along the long wall.  Minimum radius is 32 but a lot of the curves are in the 36 to 42 inch range.  Areas with angled lines are walkways with pinch points down to 24" at narrowest.  Top area is walkway from stairs from left to right along outside of layout.  An alternative plan will be to have the layout use the entire 15' space (top to bottom) and use a lift out at the upper left where the stairs enter the basement.

Yard at bottom is now yet fleshed out.  Planning on staging below the yard at bottom.  Click on image to see a bigger one.

Here is my layout progress topic at Atlas Rescue Forum - displays better there:

http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-progress?page=3&scrollTo=107647

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 4:56 PM

Now boys...I appreciate any and all help and none of it is forgotten or wasted. My wife and I have been cleaning out the basement and I've come up with quite a bit more room so revising the benchwork will be no issue whatsoever and I know I'll end up doing that, just waiting to get some of those books to check out a plan but it'll get done and I'll learn everything in time and one day, long hence, you'll look back on this and say "I knew him when he was green and ignorant" and I'll have to give all of you the credit for my success! I'll keep in touch and send some pics when there's something worth sending.  Doc

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 5:23 PM

bearman

Rio...huh?

Thats Rio Grande!  

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by tedtedderson on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:00 PM

aprofitt0002

My wife and I have been cleaning out the basement and I've come up with quite a bit more room...   Doc

I believe this is what dreams are made of. Big Smile

 

T e d 

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:47 PM

aprofitt - happy wife happy life!

Nice she is helping you clean out the basement so more space for the layout. more space = good!  Trains need lots of space to stretch their legs.  Bigger curves too!

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:09 PM

Thumbs Up Doc

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 15, 2018 4:50 AM

NWP SWP

In my inexperienced opinion going off all half cocked is a serious mistake that the OP has already made by building benchwork first 

Half cocked? 

That's a bit harsh, don't ya think?

True, it typically makes more sense to design a track plan with the available space in mind, but I can see situations where the available space dictates the size and shape of the layout. 

I think that it might be half cocked to build the framework for a specific layout without first considering the dimensions, angles, and radii required for successful completion. But, in Doc's case, he knew the amount of available space and so he built a framework to accommodate some sort of layout and then came to the forum for advice, having no idea exactly what to build.

There might be a more deliberate way to approach the layout building issue, but "going off all half cocked"?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 15, 2018 4:54 AM

NWP SWP

I may be inexperienced but I'm not unknowledgable (that's probably not a word) I have spend the past 2 years reading learning gathering information on model railroading, I have spent the past 3 months deeply engrossed in books about layout construction, I was just passing along the knowledge I have. After all this IS a community. 

I don't see a problem with someone who has never built a layout adding his reply to someone else who has never built a layout. The one caveat, though, is that anyone who offers layout building advice ought to acknowledge whether or not he speaks from first hand experience. That caveat ought to apply to everyone on the forum.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, March 15, 2018 8:18 AM

richhotrain
The one caveat, though, is that anyone who offers layout building advice ought to acknowledge whether or not he speaks from first hand experience. That caveat ought to apply to everyone on the forum. 

Rich

Rich,

I totally agree.  Contrary to what a few may think, experience is very important and does matter.  Thats a decision making factor for companies hiring employee's too; book knowledge has limits. 

In the layout arena, there is no substitute for hands on experience - most people who have built a layout or two or more, "know" that.

I've been on this forum for quite a few years and there was a long period where I went through a separation and divorce, between jobs, and didn't have space for a layout - or work area to do wood cutting or crafts so even building a small module would have been difficult. 

Then one day I participated in layout discussion and one guy (obviously sensistive to the fact that hands on experience mattered) said "why are you giving advise?  You don't even have a layout".  He stuck a ski boot in his mouth that day because I did have a 10x18' layout I was well into building - my third room sized layout.  But even prior to that I had built two other layouts (one 16x19' in a garage and a 14x25 in a basement) so I commented on what I had experience with - and kept my mouth shut on things I didn't have experience with.

There is an old saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Thursday, March 15, 2018 8:52 AM

Hey, Rich...I guess the good thing is I'm not "all cocked"...is there an "all cocked?" If there's a half cocked seems like there ought to be an "all cocked" but that's just me I reckon... Doc

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Thursday, March 15, 2018 9:02 AM

Rich, In my previous hobby of tractor restoration I was a member of several forum communities and I've found that, for the most part, good sense and fair play are the rule and not the exception. I've always found that when given the option, grace is most always preferable to justice. I know one thing. I've appreciated all the help I've been given here. I had no idea one shouldn't begin with maximizing one's space for a layout, all I knew was railroad modelling seemed to be just the ticket (pun intended) for me at this stage of my life and I just dived right into it with absolutely no prior knowledge. As I noted above, I now understand more than I did at the beginning and Darlene and I created some more space in the basement and all I have to do now, once I find a layout that suits me and fits the required criteria I can just adjust the benchwork to fit the layout. In my mind, that just adds to the enjoyment of working toward a finished (or never finished) product that is the very best I can create. I do know one final thing, I want to continue to receive help from all of you. I usually take criticism pretty well...after all, I was a pastor for 30 years, not a job for the faint of heart so things will work out fine and I appreciate your spirit my brother.   Doc

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Thursday, March 15, 2018 9:07 AM

Riogrande ole settler, you received good advice whoever said it. My books have been shipped from Amazon and when I get them I'm going to do some more study. I did a little background study on The Cotswolds last night. I figure a person has to know something about the region you are modelling as well as the sort of equipment, railroad, archetecture, industries, etc that were around in the era of your layout so I've started boning up on my knowledge of Southwest England...never having been there. I'll stay in touch my friend.  Doc

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, March 15, 2018 9:18 AM

OOPs!  I thought you were familiar with the area.  I had a good time a couple of mornigs ago, learning about the Cotswolds, through searching and Google satalite images.

It reminds me of the SE. WI. area where I live, except the fields here are square, or rectangle in shape, because of the land surveying and plotting methods used here.

Here's the site where I found the map:

https://visitbytrain.info/cotswolds/index.htm

Mike.

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Posted by UNCLEBUTCH on Thursday, March 15, 2018 9:42 AM

Hey Doc, Just want to share my 3cents worth. When I started I did as you;built bench work and layed track.That was before internet. Didn't know about track plans.

The first two layouts didn't las long. Not because of the no plan track plan but of used cheap junk equipment.

Third try; used a published plan, only to find out it wouldn't fit in the space ti said it should.'' Most plans arn't proven, weren't ever built, so must be modified to fit''

Any way I threw that plan aside and layed track. A life change took its toll onthat layout.

Forth try,built bench,layed track, tore some up relayed it moved it ect. Till I had what I liked, and then moved it some more. I found I enjoyed working out the issues in real time.  My trains stayed on the track.I could run laps,switch out the industerys or both at the same time. And I liked the way it looked.

So what did I miss by not useing a plan?

A furnance replacment took out that layout and I'm now rebuilding. My bench is built, and without a plan, I'm laying track.

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Posted by aprofitt0002 on Thursday, March 15, 2018 10:19 AM

I'll take a look at that site Mike. I was partly familiar with the area having seen some things on Rick Steves' England...my wife and I watch some PBS programs set in England and one of them is Father Brown. We both really like the area and the archetecture is beautiful plus, the topography reminds me of central Kentucky. The economy of the area was at one time one of the best wool producing areas in England...we used to raise sheep, goats, cattle, horses, etc before we sold the farm and moved to town (after I fell off the roof of the house and the children said "No more of that!") a couple of years ago. As I said before, dad who was in the Army Air Corps in WWII was stationed in southern England. Dad died in 1998...I still miss him and this sort of gives me a chance to look up and say, dad, this is sort of for you. By the way, I've got friends who live in Wisconsin, in Barneveld...run a Case dealership there. We were close when I was into restoring tractors...good people.  Doc

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