Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Interesting plan, Tupper Lake & Faust Junction

21638 views
209 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August, 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,660 posts
Posted by carl425 on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:36 AM

railandsail
I'll bet the computer track planning programs experience problems with them as well.

Nope.  The two programs (XtrackCAD and 3rdPlanit) I've used have, as far as I can tell, exact representations of the track components from the major manufacturers.  Print them out full size and lay the turnout on the printout and they match perfectly.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    August, 2013
  • From: Richmond, VA
  • 1,660 posts
Posted by carl425 on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:44 AM

riogrande5761
get the fast track system and learn how to roll your own.

The FastTracks jigs produce turnouts of a predefined, fixed geometry that is not really suited for RYO.  If you really need something special, you need to learn how to build them truely from scratch without the aid of jigs.

Which makes:

riogrande5761
make what is commercially available fit

a better idea in 99.44% of cases.

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

  • Member since
    June, 2007
  • From: Northern Virginia
  • 6,682 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 1:39 PM

carl425
iogrande5761 make what is commercially available fit a better idea in 99.44% of cases.

That what I have always done.  Rather than try to force commerical track products to fit what I want, I adapt commercial track components to work within their geometry and get something pretty good.

Example, two Shinohara curved and one Peco curved are used in this ladder for staging:

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 9:47 PM

Doughless

I was thinking more about working with a compact area of multiple turnouts, especially curved turnouts. 

IIRC, working with curved turnouts is more complicated than with straight turnouts.  Sliding, rotating, or getting the diverging angle wrong with a curved turnout has a bigger impact than a straight one and its much more difficult to correct.  I don't think mocking up an entire plan is necessary, but its a good idea to mock the compact area of curved turnout arrays to ensure the diverging angles came off correctly and are of sufficient length. 

Unlike a straight turnout with straight tangent and diverging routes that are easy to add length too if needed (from the abutting flex track), having to add an extra half inch of curve to a stock turnout means you have to bend the very end of a piece of flextrack when abutting the turnout in order to make that curve.  Also, any planned trimming of a curved turnout can cause more complicated approach problems if its not planned precisely.

Brian may be able to fill in small gaps in a curved turnout array by using scraps of sectional track of proper radius.  Gotta love sectional track.

 

I think you are correct Doughless, especially as I discover even more little nunances with these various curved turnouts I've collected up.

I wonder if there are any 24" radius short sectional track pieces to be had? I'm even finding it a problem to find std length sectional track of 24" radius.

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 9:59 PM

deleted duplicate posting

  • Member since
    June, 2007
  • From: Northern Virginia
  • 6,682 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 5:57 AM

railandsail

Brian may be able to fill in small gaps in a curved turnout array by using scraps of sectional track of proper radius.  Gotta love sectional track.  

I think you are correct Doughless, especially as I discover even more little nunances with these various curved turnouts I've collected up. I wonder if there are any 24" radius short sectional track pieces to be had? I'm even finding it a problem to find std length sectional track of 24" radius.

Why not just use flex track?  You can cut and bend it to exactly what you need and not have to mess with sectional track at all.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 7:02 AM

I'll likely use flex track everywhere I can, but there are some situations where a really short section is a little difficult to handle as opposed to the 'fixed curve' of the small sectional pieces.

  • Member since
    July, 2009
  • From: somerset, nj
  • 2,508 posts
Posted by gregc on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 7:38 AM

could you use a dremel cutting tool to cut the required length from a full size sectional curve?

there can be gaps.  It can be shorter than a perfect fit, but not longer

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 7:53 AM

gregc

could you use a dremel cutting tool to cut the required length from a full size sectional curve?

there can be gaps.  It can be shorter than a perfect fit, but not longer

 

Yes that's true, but I find it difficult to find 'sectional track' in larger radii.

I was recently trying to find some 24"r pieces just to use in mock-up planing, and I don't readily find it.

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: In the heart of Georgia
  • 3,048 posts
Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 7:57 AM

riogrande5761

 

 
railandsail

Brian may be able to fill in small gaps in a curved turnout array by using scraps of sectional track of proper radius.  Gotta love sectional track.  

I think you are correct Doughless, especially as I discover even more little nunances with these various curved turnouts I've collected up. I wonder if there are any 24" radius short sectional track pieces to be had? I'm even finding it a problem to find std length sectional track of 24" radius.

 

Why not just use flex track?  You can cut and bend it to exactly what you need and not have to mess with sectional track at all.

 

If I want a consistent 18, 22, or 24 inch radius curve I simply use sectional track rather than try to bend flex track into those specific radii.  Like turnouts, its simpler to use the commercially available product, train set stigma aside.

In Brian's case where he may be joining several curved turnouts together, the angles are really impotant.  Extending the turnout length an inch is easier by nipping a piece of sectional track that's already bent into his needed radius than to try to nip a piece of bent flex track into an inch length.  JMO.

It only works if the radius you need is 18,22, or 24 inches, so its useful for some of the Walthers curved turnouts (Atlas sectional mates well).  I think there is also commericially available 30 inch radius curved sectional track, but I don't know the Code or the producer.

- Douglas

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • 290 posts
Posted by steamnut on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 4:21 PM

Looks interesting to me, especially for the space. I have two issues that I suggest you consider.

1. I'm impressed that a 74-year-old can pour footings and perform other heavy work involved in setting up the structure. I'm in my late 60s and would have to hire such activities out. However, the plan requires a duckunder at the entrance (there is too much going on to turn this into a lift-up or similar alternative). You should very carefully consider whether you really should commit long-term to a duck-under (more like crawl-under in practice).

2. You talk about putting the helix outside the back of your shed. I "get it" in terms of saving floor space in your shed. Just make sure that you have full access for maintenance. I fear that this will be difficult to achieve.

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 21, 2018 5:44 PM

steamnut

Looks interesting to me, especially for the space. I have two issues that I suggest you consider.

1. I'm impressed that a 74-year-old can pour footings and perform other heavy work involved in setting up the structure. I'm in my late 60s and would have to hire such activities out. However, the plan requires a duckunder at the entrance (there is too much going on to turn this into a lift-up or similar alternative). You should very carefully consider whether you really should commit long-term to a duck-under (more like crawl-under in practice).





Photo of my entrance from inside, but disreguard those long alum ramps across it,...perhaps shorten then to 36" and incorporate them into this rectangular frame I discuss here,...

Construct a light weight, rigid, rectangular metal frame that would be as wide as the entrance opening I intend to have (36"?), and tall enough to have all 3 track levels (staging, bottom deck, top deck) attached to it,...plus extra height to go above the shed's door to reach a horizontal hinging location above the door.

In other words the top horizontal leg of that metal rectangle would form the rotation axis about which the 'frame' would rotate upwards (swing upwards) towards the ceiling. Then it would be only necessary that the width of the bridge structures, etc be limited by the clearance to the top of the ceiling when the frame is swung upwards into it's raised position.

These 'bridges' could be of many different types / styles, and not to limited to their scale heights. They would be attached to the metal lifting frame via their sides facing the frame, leaving their opposite sides facing the room. Only the bridge structures themselves would appear to cross the space between the open spaced metal frame

The inside of the shed's door would be painted as a body (river or bay) of water, and would act as the backdrop for the bridges when it was closed. When the door was left open there would be hollow spaces between the bridge structures that a person could view thru to the inside of the shed.

The bridge might simple be a trestle across the water with multiple legs that don't actually touch on any base, but appear to do so as a result of the water backdrop?? .....somehow melt the bridge structure itself (minimized) into a backdrop painting on the inside face of the shed's door. .....

PS: I had originally thought of making that 'rectangular frame' a solid piece of plywood with the backdrop painted on to itself. But that would mean that even with the shed's door open, no one could see inside. So that's when I began to think of a 'hollow core' to that framework.


steamnut
You talk about putting the helix outside the back of your shed. I "get it" in terms of saving floor space in your shed. Just make sure that you have full access for maintenance. I fear that this will be difficult to achieve.
 
External helix with temp full metal siding that will have an access door in it to reach the 3-way turnout that feeds the staging tracks. It will also have a plexiglass window for viewing inside the helix without having to climb inside it.

 
more here,
  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, November 27, 2018 11:21 AM

Freight Yard Space

Originally posted by mark_dalrymple on another forum
Hi Brian.

Not what I would do with the space - but I am still enjoying your journey.  I love to cram things in - but over the years I have found my track work keeps getting stripped back to make room for more structures and scenery.
Cheers, Mark.

 

I guess I am more of an 'industry' based structures person than a country or city scenery person. (I did play with 'erector sets' as a kid, and went into mech engineering).

That freight yard will be connected to steel mill and fabrication works down at the end. And I hope to put in a diesel engine repair shop along with the sanding and fuel oil services for the diesels. And yard lights on towers and dwarf lights on the tracks.

One of my basic hopes for the freight yard scene was to also be able to:
1)park a few of many different diesel engines at times (waiting for repair, or waiting to be sent out),
2)park a few of my unusual and very neat freight cars I hate to keep buried in staging,
3)provide for a little switching activity.
4) etc

...for reference

 

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:58 AM

Mirror Idea,...maybe?

A crazy though came to mind EARLY (too early) this morning,...what about locating a mirror behind the steel mill?

I recall reading some thoughts from John Armstrong about the use of mirrors on layouts to 'expand the scene and/or hide some tracks'. I did a little bit of experimenting with the idea on my old layout. The mirror made the container yard look a lot larger, and made the freight yard look more extensive.

The tracks were making a 90 degree turn here around that door opening into some staging tracks. The mirrors themselves were just those foot square 'mirrored tiles' I stuck up in a temporary fashion to block the view into the laundry room of the basement.

 

So I was wondering what might be the effect of placing a mirror(s) behind the steel mill, but in front of the mainline track(s) behind it?
1) might make that steel mill and other industry look more extensive2)

2) might make my freight yard look even bigger

3) might hide the mainline tracks that are very close behind the blast furnance

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 28, 2018 12:43 PM

Container Port on my Peninsula

So I was surfing around the internet looking for some ideas for my little container unloading facility on my peninsula. I ran across this rather interesting one, but I think it may be a bit too large for my space surprisewink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpi1jswifac

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, November 28, 2018 2:11 PM

Container Crane

I was looking thru the internet for container cranes and found this rather interesting one. Its described as a Bachmann (European one I believe), 44-0009 Container Terminal Crane by Bachmann in OO scale. Pretty neat.

 

I like this one !

How about doubled up !!

I first found a pic on google images....

 

A large resin model of a modern container crane. This model features a very high level of detail including etched railings, fixed container crane unit, glazed windows and a weathered finish. This is a large model so will sit nicely as a center piece in a dock yard or industrial scene.

Measurements:
  • Length: 227mm
  • Width: 266mm
  • Height: 348mm
  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 9,708 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, November 28, 2018 8:57 PM

railandsail
I was looking thru the internet for container cranes and found this rather interesting one. Its described as a Bachmann (European one I believe), 44-0009 Container Terminal Crane by Bachmann in OO scale. Pretty neat.

Nice crane Brian!

I'm assuming that if it is a resin kit then it does not operate. It would be an interesting challenge to introduce some movement. Just having the hoist move back and forth would add a lot of realism.

Don't forget about scratchbuilding too. Ed (gmpullman) made a really nice crane just from bits and pieces IIRC.

Dave

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Thursday, November 29, 2018 5:59 AM

Don't forget about scratchbuilding too. Ed (gmpullman) made a really nice crane just from bits and pieces IIRC.

Dave


I have that in the back of my mind. Doctorwayne (on this forum) made a really nice crane for his diesel loco workshop if I recall properly

I also have a nice Roco one somewhere in my storage trailer that I bought years ago after seeing one built on a modular layout at Timonium train show,....but it, like a number of others, spans too many tracks. I want it just to just span two tracks underneath itself, ...like that Bachmann one.

  • Member since
    June, 2007
  • From: Northern Virginia
  • 6,682 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, November 29, 2018 6:22 AM

Is the Roco crane a European model?  It does seem like you have a lot of European products!  Stick out tongue

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Thursday, November 29, 2018 8:22 AM

riogrande5761

Is the Roco crane a European model?  It does seem like you have a lot of European products!  Stick out tongue

 

Yes it is a European model, but they were a leader in early designs of container cranes. I couldn't find a good photo of that Roco unit that depicts the detail.

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Thursday, November 29, 2018 8:27 AM

hon30critter

I'm assuming that if it is a resin kit then it does not operate. It would be an interesting challenge to introduce some movement. Just having the hoist move back and forth would add a lot of realism.

Dave

Speaking of animation of these cranes I just found thisrather intersting discussion of container port facilities that including some custom work on animation.
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25781?page=2

As I've said I do not intend on pursuing animation on mind. I've got enough work to do on just getting the layout up and running.

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 9,708 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Friday, November 30, 2018 2:18 AM

railandsail
As I've said I do not intend on pursuing animation on mind. I've got enough work to do on just getting the layout up and running.

Hi Brian,

I had my tongue in my cheek when I suggested motorizing the crane, but once the layout is done you will need something to keep you busy.Smile, Wink & Grin

Dave

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Friday, November 30, 2018 8:31 AM

At my current slow rate of speed (too much planning, and other distractions) I don't worry about having things to do  Wink

Besides I have some kitbashing projects to finish, many DCC projects, and utilmately I'd like to kitbash a C&O H7 if someone doesn't come along and produce one before I get thru.

C&O H7 loco, HO scale, in modern plastic

 

PS: Actually running double-headed mountain locos might satisfy my C&O desires.....And I have a B&O EM1

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 9,708 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Friday, November 30, 2018 11:12 AM

railandsail
utilmately I'd like to kitbash a C&O H7 if someone doesn't come along and produce one before I get thru.

Better save some leftover spagetti for the front of that monster! I can just imagine what the inside of the cab looked like.

Dave

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, December 04, 2018 8:33 AM

Full Size Drawing

Two days ago I decided I was going to make a full scale dwg of my freight yard ladder trackplan so I could 'record' what I had mocked up on my living room floor,....and I could make it very exact with the scale size paper templates available from Peco.

I have a nice 4x8 table out in my carport to lay a paper out on and tape the turnout templates to it. then all I would have to do when it comes to laying the actual track onto the plywood roadbed is lay this rolled-up paper dwg down as a guide.

So I was looking around for suitable paper to make this dwg on. Being budget minded I thought what about all this Christmas wrapping paper available from the dollar stores,...using the white backside?? I was NOT really impressed with its 'sturdiness' .

My contractor friend suggested a roll of brown paper they utilized to protect floors during construction/painting/etc. I got some from him, and started the dwg / pasting project. had to quite over night so i covered it over with a bedsheet and some vapor barrier material they use on houses. Next morning I found the paper had still absorbed some moisture and was wriggled up in a nice too inviting manner. My thoughts were  'what sort of accuracy' was I going to end up with here after spending much time accurately laying out out my track plan??

 

 

'Back to the drawing board', I believe they say. Going to have to find some alternative paper. And probably need to roll it up each night and put it inside.

PS: What made things more challenging was trying to keep those small paper templates of the switches corralled in the small wind gust that keep invading the carport....ha...ha

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 9,708 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, December 04, 2018 2:50 PM

Hi Brian,

I think you might be worried too much about how the wrinkles will affect your track position. When it comes to actually laying the roadbed and the track you are going to have to make some adjustments as you go anyhow, just to correct kinks and what not. The paper may not be flat but the pencil lines are still basically where they were before the wrinkling happened.

Dave

  • Member since
    February, 2009
  • 1,460 posts
Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, December 05, 2018 9:42 AM

I'm wondering if the wrinkling indicates some sort of skrinkage of the paper to a degree that might affect the very accurate drawing I am trying to make,..to locate all of those turnouts in a compact manner.

I'm hoping to use this paper pattern to lay the track accurately.  I have found that placing some particular single turnout as little as 1/4", or even 1/8", in straight or rotated aspect, can affect route directions and other turnout locations quite a bit.

At the moment I am continuing to use that brown paper for the drawing, and I think today I will experiment with trying to determine the paper's dimensional stability. If nothing else I can extract smaller segments of this 'brown paper plan' and place them onto a more dimensionally stable paper.

  • Member since
    December, 2008
  • From: In the heart of Georgia
  • 3,048 posts
Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, December 05, 2018 10:28 AM

Unable to help at this point, or understand the need for this extra step at attempted precision.

At this point, I'd build the benchwork to allow 1/2 inch of adjustment towards what you're planning.  Then simply lay real track loosely on the real table and adjust accordingly.  Then roadbed after you confirmed your placement.  I think the practice track arrangement you laid on the floor confirms things will fit like you want, IIRC.  

- Douglas

  • Member since
    June, 2007
  • From: Northern Virginia
  • 6,682 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, December 05, 2018 11:10 AM

I agree with Dougless.  As long as your basic plans are "close", you can work out the actual track during the laying process.

I found during the process of laying out ladders, curves, turnouts etc. that if I drew in the major elements (track centerlines on tangents and curve radii) etc. I could slide the turnouts a little this way or that and eyeball things in so they lined up nicely and smoothly.

Of course if you use a sheet of Homasote rather than cork, then that simplifies the process and you can simply mount the track as things line up.

As pointed out, you have already test fit everything on the floor.  Now you've spent a lot of time with analysis and proof of concept.  Time to lay track and get it happening.  As they say, you ain't getting any younger!

Rio Grande.  The Action Road

  • Member since
    July, 2006
  • From: Bradford, Ontario
  • 9,708 posts
Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, December 05, 2018 3:14 PM

railandsail
I'm wondering if the wrinkling indicates some sort of skrinkage of the paper to a degree that might affect the very accurate drawing I am trying to make,..to locate all of those turnouts in a compact manner.

If anything the paper has expanded, not shrunk.

I have to agree with Douglas and Rio Grande. Stop analyzing the thing and do it!!SnailNoSmile, Wink & Grin

I will also repeat the suggestion about using Homasote. It will hold the track pieces quite securely but it is still easy to pull the nails and make adjustments.

Dave

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!