Hi gang!
How far apart should HO scale yard tracks be so that a car can be picked up by hand?
How far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
2" works well for the occasional reach in, and doesn't look way too far apart. A fiddle yard sort of thing, I'd want bigger spacing, but I have large hands. Simple parallel tracks (not a yard situation) can be close together for a more scale appearance and 'normal' cars won;t hit, at least on straight track. Oddball equipment (my iCar iPhone camera car, for one) may need better clearance. On curves - it all comes down to radius, but 30 and 32" concentric curves did not work for me with various combinations of full length passenger cars - the end of a car on the inside track would hit the center of a car on the outside track if they passed at just the right position. Luckily I found this out BEFORE the track was fastened down and made some adjustments to increase the spacing. Same cars if the curves had been 40 and 42", probably ok. I had no problems with 40 and 50 foot cars, or even shorty 60 foot passenger cars at 30 and 32".
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
As Randy alluded to, this is not a question with a "one size fits all" answer.
It's very tempting to get yard tracks as close as possible, but I've found a bit more space tends to look better and of course make it easier for the "0-5-0" switcher to handle cars. If you are into scenery, a little more spacing gives you the opportunity to plant some weeds and "car junk" that eventually litters most yards.
I've walked refinery yards that were solid stone (or shell) ballast. That made it easy to walk in all kinds of weather, but it was boring.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
hon30critter Hi gang! How far apart should HO scale yard tracks be so that a car can be picked up by hand? How far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover? Thanks, Dave
Not sure I understand your question about the spacing of double tracks. Are you asking about the spacing of two mailine tracks with a crossover? In that instance, my spacing is 2 inches.
Rich
Alton Junction
A good place to start for track center-to-track center spacing is NMRA S-8 (.pdf download). Note that spacing is wider in curves and varies by the type of equipment. The recommended tangent (straight) track spacing may not be wide enough for some folks' fingers.
hon30critterHow far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover?
I don't understand what "safe" means in this context. Some clarification might help.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
According to John Armstrongs "Track Planning for Realistic Operation", in his chapter on minimum standards, he recommends 2.0" centers for yards with parallel track. I compromise that with spacings that a yard ladder of turnouts give and it may be a bit more. For staging I used 2 1/16 centers.
Here is my yard:
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My "fiddle yard" has 2 1/2 inch spacing. Part of that happened for the very reason being discussed: sticking my fingers down between cars. The other reason is that part of the yard is on a curve, and the curved tracks are spaced out accordingly.
Ed
7j43k Part of that happened for the very reason being discussed: sticking my fingers down between cars. Ed
Part of that happened for the very reason being discussed: sticking my fingers down between cars.
That reminds me of a cartoon in Model Railroader magazine where a guy has a guest pro model railroader visiting him in his basement. In the cartoon the guy hosting the pro reaches down to pick up a locomotive. The visitor shouts out, "what are doing"?!!!!! The layout owner explains he has to pick up his engine because for some reason having to do moving it. Then the pro explains how he should change his track design, giving him a professional tip, so he doesn't have to pick up his trains.
Apparently in the olden days, it was considered bad model railroad ettiquite to touch trains unless absolutely necessary! So we don't need no stinking large gaps between tracks in yards eh!?!
In yards it might also be wise to consider ease of reading car numbers. A wider, say two and a half inch space gives greater ease in looking over one car to read another cars number. Useful when switching. This cuts the number of tracks in any given width.
davidmurray In yards it might also be wise to consider ease of reading car numbers.
In yards it might also be wise to consider ease of reading car numbers.
Just read the numbers on the car ends. The prototype put them up high so that we could read them in our yards.
riogrande5761Apparently in the olden days, it was considered bad model railroad ettiquite to touch trains unless absolutely necessary!
It is still my goal to never touch the trains. I was taught that it is good to set goals - even if we don't attain them.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Goals are good!
Even with John Armstrongs minimum spacing in yard tracks, you can still grab train cars if necessary. But we should avoid it if possible!
The industry tends to make double track "stuff" for 2" centers, for a long time now.
Atlas Custom Line turnouts build yards with 2" centers with no cutting......
That is slightly wider than prototype spacing, but seems to look fine with our models.
For the last 3 decades I have always stayed with 2" centers, yards, mainlines, stagging and even curves.......but my curves are large, 36" radius and above, with most being above 40" radius.
So for me, one size does fit all, at least for this question.....
Sheldon
davidmurrayA wider, say two and a half inch space gives greater ease in looking over one car to read another cars number.
A flexible and real-time car-routing method (such as car cards and waybills), vastly reduces the need to do this -- for example, the car cards and waybills are kept in standing order to match the cars in the track.
I read the numbers while the cars are on the yard lead being sorted. The cars match the car cards in order so I don’t need to read the numbers while in the middle of the yard. And as Sheldon mentioned above, my yard spacing is based on Atlas turnouts. I have a separate fiddle track for adding and removing cars from the layout. It doubles as the RIP track. It is on the edge of the layout and my fingers easily reach both sides without bumping into anything. This is also where I test coupler height.
cuyamahon30critter How far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover? I don't understand what "safe" means in this context. Some clarification might help.
When I said 'safe' I was referring to the 'S' curve issue. I guess a better way to phrase the question would be - "do crossovers on tracks with 2" spacing work OK or is it 'safer' to place the tracks further apart?
Sorry for not stating the question better.
The reason I asked the questions is because I want to make sure that our new club layout design works properly, so I was looking for some real life experiences.
Thanks for your input everyone.
hon30critter cuyama hon30critter How far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover? I don't understand what "safe" means in this context. Some clarification might help. When I said 'safe' I was referring to the 'S' curve issue. I guess a better way to phrase the question would be - "do crossovers on tracks with 2" spacing work OK or is it 'safer' to place the tracks further apart? Sorry for not stating the question better. Dave
cuyama hon30critter How far apart should double tracks be for a 'safe' crossover? I don't understand what "safe" means in this context. Some clarification might help.
The performance of crossovers depends on the turnout angle/number, not track spacing - bigger is better.
#6 is a good minimum for crossovers.
hon30critterdo crossovers on tracks with 2" spacing work OK
Yes, for tangent (straight) tracks in HO. As Sheldon notes, frog number is typically controlling factor.
carl425 riogrande5761 Apparently in the olden days, it was considered bad model railroad ettiquite to touch trains unless absolutely necessary! It is still my goal to never touch the trains. I was taught that it is good to set goals - even if we don't attain them.
riogrande5761 Apparently in the olden days, it was considered bad model railroad ettiquite to touch trains unless absolutely necessary!
Guys,This is the main reason I use KD magnets for hands off uncoupling.
I also use a 1-1/12" or 1 3/4" centers for my older industrial yards since you can stand between the tracks and reach your arms out and almost touch the cars with your finger tips. We wouldn't ride the sides of the cars after dark.
As far as switching the majority of the modelers I've watched over the years cherry pick their cars instead of pulling the whole string in order to classify those cars into distention blocks...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEI also use a 1-1/12"
No, you don't. It doesn't fit with HO standard gauge. We have been over this many times before. That's less than 11 scale feet. Mathematically that doesn't make sense based on Plate B or Plate C dimensions for prototype freight cars, which is 10' 8" across.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/254250.aspx
The photos you have posted in the past show more than 1½" track center-to-track center spacing.
Maybe you are measuring something else.
Since this is my first layout, I wanted to minimize derailments or other issues, so I also went w/ 2" center-to-center between track. I have that spacing in the yards and only have one mainline.
Why hold my breath that the trains won't touch by going with less space?
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe performance of crossovers depends on the turnout angle/number, not track spacing - bigger is better.
Sheldon and cuyama,
OK, that makes sense. Thanks.
We will be using Peco Code 100 large turnouts for most of the crossovers. In a couple of places will use Peco Code 100 curved turnouts because there aren't any straight sections long enough to accommodate straight turnouts.
FYI, the smallest turnouts we will use are Peco Code 100 mediums, and those will only be used on secondary track like yards and spurs.
Thanks
hon30critter ATLANTIC CENTRAL The performance of crossovers depends on the turnout angle/number, not track spacing - bigger is better. OK Sheldon and cuyama, That makes sense. Thanks. We will be using Peco Code 100 large turnouts for most of the crossovers. In a couple of places will use Peco Code 100 curved turnouts because there aren't any straight sections long enough to accommodate straight turnouts. Thanks Dave
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The performance of crossovers depends on the turnout angle/number, not track spacing - bigger is better.
OK Sheldon and cuyama,
That makes sense. Thanks.
Just my opinion, but why PECO code 100?
Personally I don't care for the European/toy curved frog geometry of PECO code 100.
And I really don't think they make for a good crossover.
The straight frogs of an ATLAS #6 Custom Line is a much better geometry, better look, and more prototypical for North America.
But that's just me......
Where you use crossovers in curves, you will need to check for proper track-to-track spacing all along the straight-through (non-crossing path). This will require a bit of tweaking in CAD or on the layout surface. And because it is a curve, that spacing will need to be more than 2".
Note that the frog in a PECO Code 100 Large is a bit tighter than you might expect (about a #4½). So be sure to check your longest and stiffest equipment through a straight Code 100 crossover before committing.
The Code 100 curved turnouts use the same frog, but there is no internal S-curve in a properly designed curved crossover.
The only yards on my layout are staging yards, where the track centres vary from 2" to 3". Almost all cars are handled at these locations, either being placed on the layout or removed from it and returned to their respective boxes...
There's no double track on the layout, either, although all towns have passing sidings on the mainline. Track centres there vary from 3 3/4" down to 1 3/4". This is the area of 1 3/4" centres, dictated by limited layout depth and the need to include other items...
...including a turntable...
Space is so tight that the 90' turntable is only 89' long!
While I generally wouldn't be picking a car off the tracks there, it's certainly possible to do, even with a train on each track - simply touch the roof or top of the car, tilt it away from the other track, and then pick it up.
Wayne
cuyamaNote that the frog in a PECO Code 100 Large is a bit tighter than you might expect (about a #4½). So be sure to check your longest and stiffest equipment through a straight Code 100 crossover before committing.
Is there a better turnout (i.e. larger frog) that you would recommend? We want to have live frogs (so I can run my critters - selfish eh?!). One club member has used Fast Tracks jigs extensively. We have considered going that route.
Thanks Wayne.
Tilting the cars will work on double track but we need to be able to pick up cars in the yard too where there will be several tracks.
hon30critterIs there a better turnout (i.e. larger frog) that you would recommend?
Many clients and friends are happy with PECO Code 83. Available Electrofrog or Insulfrog. Not as inexpensive as Atlas, but offers a nice relatively compact curved turnout.
hon30critter cuyama Note that the frog in a PECO Code 100 Large is a bit tighter than you might expect (about a #4½). So be sure to check your longest and stiffest equipment through a straight Code 100 crossover before committing. Is there a better turnout (i.e. larger frog) that you would recommend? We want to have live frogs (so I can run my critters - selfish eh?!). One club member has used Fast Tracks jigs extensively. We have considered going that route. Thanks Dave
cuyama Note that the frog in a PECO Code 100 Large is a bit tighter than you might expect (about a #4½). So be sure to check your longest and stiffest equipment through a straight Code 100 crossover before committing.
For straight turnouts I actually prefer ATLAS code 83 Custom Line. They have metal frogs that can be powered but require a relay or contacts to change polarity. I power all of mine and use mostly #6 and #8.
They make into crossovers with 2" centers with no cutting, and make 2" center yards with no cutting.
For curved turnouts Walthers has some, and so does PECO code 83, but I generally scratch build curved turnouts if I need them.