OK guys, looking for some input and advice from yard-design experts. It will be a few months before I dive in to actually building the yard but want plenty of time to think it out before-hand.
I've got all the mainline sections built and operating (phases 1-3) and now concentrating on mine construction and scenery on phase 3. Next step is to add the yard. I can already tell I am going to be a collector, and will need a lot of room to park locos and trains. Right now I have:
I am not into operations and my railroad is a one-man show. But I want to make use of the available space to stage, store and create trains with minimal use of two-finger movements. I have read John Armstrong's book so I have a basic understanding, though I need to get it back from Dad next time we visit and read it over again.
The room is open on all sides of the yard area so access to all yard tracks will be good. I know the lead-ins are not ideal but working with available space. Also I will start with phase 4 and then expand to 4A when needed.
You guys that have "been there", what tracks are not likely to be very useful and therefore wasted space? What could I do to improve operation? What is missing?
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
My frank reaction is -- too much stuff for not enough useful track. It is annoying having to move a bunch of stuff just to get one engine out, or to tie up the main line in order to make up a long train, such as your passenger train.
I see lots of tracks, but many are short and I suspect the actual fouling points would make them even shorter than they look. A turnout costs too much if all it gives you is just one car, or two cars, storage.
If your passenger cars are fixed consist trains which never change, that is where hidden staging on perhaps another level is really useful. As for the freight cars, I would explore perhaps some of the ideas you see at modular display layouts where the cars are taken off the layout. Having every single wheel on the layout at all times is going to cost you flexibility and fun, I suspect. So do what you can to get some of those wheels off the layout, and that calls for imaginative track planning.
Dave Nelson
I wonder if use of some 3-way turnouts would help with average storage track length.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Switch stand location on the ladders is going to be a bear. You said you were not much into operation, right? I guess that means you won't be switching out cuts or classifying cars. Even so, looks like too many short tracks with too much single purpose trackage. Much easier to critique yours than to do my own. Ha Ha
Charlie
Walt,
Some good advice there from folks who know their stuff.
Here's a few suggestions.
On the group of tracks 2-6, bend them up toward where it says "4A."
Combine the wye at 10 and 17 with 7. That should give you a longer tail track, probably a good thing.
Add in longer tracks going to the table end on the right between the relocated wye and Track 18. You should have space for that from curving tracks 2-6 upwards as mentioned earlier.
Is it possible to get some space for the engine terminal at the right, off the end of 4A? With your large wheelbase locos, squeezing them into the wye is really gonna limit things and if that was moved to some additional ground (if possible) on the right, things will work much better. Track off the tail of the wye could begin the lead into the loco service area, although you usually want two available (which could be off the right end of the passenger tracks and very handy if you can do it.)
Having the longer tracks added above 17/18 will also allow trains ready and set to go either direction on the main, sometimes a handy thing even if you're not really conducting operations.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Pls don't equate operation with planning. Perhaps ask yourself, what are you trying to accomplish with the layout? Also what industries you hoping to model? Answering these questions is critical.
You also might want to read the Kalmbach book about Freight Yards. That is a very valuable book to help establish some order in your yard, and help avoid the spaghetti layout shown above. I too am guilty of having too much track but having an overarching story avoids confused looks on visitors' faces.
It appears that you're trying to accomplish too much. I project the above will generate unwanted frustration and confusion.
Thanks for all the quick replies. You guys are stating a lot of the obvious, the question is how to fix it to get the most out of the available space :)
No I am not planning on cutting cars or ops sessions. And my passenger cars are not likely to be pulled apart very often. So looking mostly at storage/staging, but with capability of doing some switching especially with freight cars.
I already have a reverse loop operating so I can get the big steamers turned around without having to handle them. The wye adds some flexibility but not necessary if it complicates things. Especially since I don't have enough room to turn much of a train around with it.
I do need tracks to store locos. I was planning a turntable but that takes up a bunch of room and comes with its own challenges.
A specific question for Mike- what do you mean by combining the wye at 10 and 17 with 7?
No I really can't extend the layout to the right any further.
My railroad is designed more around modeling and scene building, not so much about operations. My main goal for the yard is to get the mainlines clear of stored trains!
Here is a simpler version for discussion. It retains the wye but the ladder run-around is gone. How useful would the run-around be?
An obvious solution for storing locomotives is a roundhouse with a turntable. A turntable to negate the need for a wye.
I think the yard will need an arrival track with an escape track in order to get the locomotive out. I think the arrival track should be the longest track, long enough to hold an entire train (track #2). But ideally, it would be closer to where the locomotives are stored.
I finally found the reverse loop on the mainline (brown track under loops) but i don't see a way to use it without backing a train thru it given the assumption that trains leave the yard going forward (not backed out). Have you considered having both the green and blue loops (lower left) be reverse loops. Have you considered adding a cross-over between the bue and magenta track below the word Viaduct.
considering that there seems to be a preferrence for running trains in one direction, having facing points spurs will be difficult to service. Having a wayfreight go out in one direction and return in the opposite direction, would allow it to service trailing point spurs going out and returning.
staging could be on the mainline on a hidden siding (tunnel). You show a green track with a siding partially hidden in a tunnel. A passenger train could be staged on the siding in the tunnel. (siding may not need to be so long). Or it could be a tripple sidding allowing both passemger trains to be staged in the tunnel. (This could all be part of a reverse loop)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ndbprrThe purpose of a yard is to sort cars not store them
Seems to me that the purpose of a yard should be whatever the owner of the yard wants it to be. He said he's not much into operations.
ndbprrI think you should seriously consider hidden staging rather then an exposed yard
There is nothing wrong with a visable yard that does double duty as staging and sorting. Tony Koester published an article recently about the advantages of visable staging.
I would simplify things a little further. Divide into two logical yards - one coming off the main where the "freight" yard does now and one coming off where the passenger train storage is. Maybe make them 4 tracks each.
Because they attach to the main from different directions, you could use them as east bound and went bound staging. When you are done with a train, you can back it back into the track is came from, out you could add an escape track.
In the triangle that gets left empty, how about a turntable for turning locomotices? No roundhouse. I always thought of turning locos as operationally interesting. I think that would fit. You could also use for turning single ended passenger cars if you like.
If you give us some dimensions, I'll sketch out what I'm talking about.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
"QUICK!!, say something before they think you are stupid" Homer Simpson
HObbyguyA specific question for Mike- what do you mean by combining the wye at 10 and 17 with 7?
Pretty much what you did in the simplified trackplan you responded with.
It's a little different than what I described, which I intended to give you group of tracks so you could circulate trains more easily in both directions. But with limited space, there is justification to simplify favoring one direction if that suits you needs.
This alternative plan seems to do that pretty well.
As expected I have a lot of work to do on this, but that's why I posted now instead of the day before laying track.
I may go back to the turntable concept for turning the steamers instead of the wye. I added the reverse loop in just because it was quick and easy. A way to turn the steamers without fouling the mainline would be better in the long run.
Yes this will be a combination staging/storage/operations yard, single-ended and with limited space to work with. So a challenge. Going to scratch my head on it for a bit and post an update when I think that I have some of the issues addressed.
Walt,What I see is track overkill that makes no sense. A complete yard redesign using less track is in order.
Since you mention you're not into operation why not just make a open stagging yard with switches on both ends since you need a engine escape or have a destinated inbound/outbound track?
Off the record and as my personal thought I would redesign the layout with less track.
BTW. C&O/B&O was never merged. The merger came in '87 under CSX.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Come on guys, I've been hanging around here long enough that you should know I am foremost a modeller, not an operator. And the layout design intentionally puts priority on scene-building above operations- in the limited footprint that I have without a duckunder, and with continuous running a must. Now I just want to move trains on and off of it in an organized and fun way and looking for constructive help. My only experience with RR yards of any sort was our visit to the Nevada Northern. But we did spend an hour or so in the loco moving cars around before I got to take the throttle on the mainline...
(Yes I know that the two railroads did not merge until after the steam era was long over. But this is freelance, and they ran through the same WVa mountain country, and they both had mainlines that ran through Huntington.)
Some of the comments made are very useful and have me thinking, but the criticism not so much. Yes it would have been a lot easier to lay less track, and skip all the elevation changes, bridges and tunnels, and concentrate on sidings and industries. But that's not what I wanted. For example the main reason for the elevated double track was to create scenes like these.
OK, enough of that. And I'll continue to work on the design. To be clear to those that really want to help, my priorities in order of importance:
I know that the end result will likely be far from ideal given the area I am working with but I want to get the most out of it and not just throw something together.
Before you spend any more time on this, I would suggest you redefine what you really want. A list of engines is really cool, but what you are wanting to hold are trains.
What trains are you wanting to stage?
How long are they?
Are you OK with shoving trains in or out of the yard?
Are you wanting to turn trains?
If the answer to the above is no, why do you want to turn engines? Also remember that you can have a turntable WITHOUT having a roundhouse. A turntable by itself is a very compact way to turn engines. What is the huge space eater is the rougdhouse and service tracks.
Are you going to swap engines between trains (you have one coal train and swap between N&W, C&O and B&O power?
Have you considered hidden or two level storage? Basic storage yard off a lower level, under/behind a smaller switching yard off an upper level?
There are no wrong answers to these questions. I will point out for future consideration, that you are doing this in kinda the reverse order. If you would have done the staging portion first, it might have given you way more options. For your type of operation having 6 long double ended tracks is way more useful than having 12 short stub ended tracks. If you consider staging at the beginning you can more easily work it into the plan. If you build the staging you can alway put a hill over it. Once you build the hill its really a pain to put a staging yard under it. Since the vast majority of modelers rebuild their layouts at some point, this might be something to consider when that time comes.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks for the good questions!
I want to stage one or more passenger trains, so need a good 8' length for this. Also a nice long coal train, so maybe another 8'. The rest will probably vary depending on my mood and what I am up to.
Yes I am OK with shoving in/out of the yard. And my trackwork so far has been very good with no problems backing up long trains, even up the hills. But it would be preferable to be able to shove onto the track along the edge to prevent fouling the blue mainline.
Turning whole trains would be nice, but not really feasible without expanding the layout further into the room. And the reverse loop that I have does allow me to turn whole trains. So not a high priority.
I want to turn engines in the yard so that I can reverse direction without fouling the green/blue mainlines. This should be possible and I can go back to planning a turntable for this.
Yes, I do frequently swap engines especially on freight trains. Also fun to double and triple-head them.
The layout is not designed or constructed with multi-level staging in mind. In reality I could expand the layout another 8' or so (downward, looking at the diagram.) And that would be a much easier way to expand staging. But that area is dedicated to another hobby right now so looking well into the future, and only if railroad expansion becomes the priority.
My suggestion is to eliminate the loco servicing area as it is drawn up and eliminate the wye. That should free up enough space for another track on the passenger side of the yard. You could then put a turntable into that triangle space that is left and probably fit a loco storage track or two off of it. Have you looked at using any "specialized" track? (3 way or curved turnouts) Might gain a little length to the yard tracks.
Mike
HObbyguy Come on guys, I've been hanging around here long enough that you should know I am foremost a modeller, not an operator. And the layout design intentionally puts priority on scene-building above operations- in the limited footprint that I have without a duckunder, and with continuous running a must. Some of the comments made are very useful and have me thinking, but the criticism not so much. Yes it would have been a lot easier to lay less track, and skip all the elevation changes, bridges and tunnels, and concentrate on sidings and industries. But that's not what I wanted. For example the main reason for the elevated double track was to create scenes like these. K, enough of that. And I'll continue to work on the design. To be clear to those that really want to help, my priorities in order of importance: Storage/staging Managing and reversing steam locos Building freight trains with minimal use of fingers Entering/exiting the mainline from both directions I know that the end result will likely be far from ideal given the area I am working with but I want to get the most out of it and not just throw something together.
Come on guys, I've been hanging around here long enough that you should know I am foremost a modeller, not an operator. And the layout design intentionally puts priority on scene-building above operations- in the limited footprint that I have without a duckunder, and with continuous running a must.
K, enough of that. And I'll continue to work on the design. To be clear to those that really want to help, my priorities in order of importance:
Despite not having the benefit of building/destroying multiple layouts, I think planning is key. Organizing the layout to 'tell a story' is more enjoyable than the sum of multiple parts. Ultimately this is your layout and who are we to question the fun factor.
You took a huge first step in posting the layout. Thanks. Some here look at layouts with a more critical eye than others. Welcome the criticism and embrace it. No one is forcing you to blindly accept what anyone says as gospel.
Your objectives are a great start. What ones are more important? Why are they ranked that way? Perhaps pick 1-2 goals and let that drive the layout over trying to do too much.
On my 7x13' HO layout I have five industries indicative of southern VA in the 1980s with an eye to operation. That means a yard and a long--2-6 foot sidings. Period. Is there too much track? Perhaps. Is there too much frustration? I bit. Does the layout tell a story? Ok, sure. Is there a smile from my three young kids seeing the layout? DEFINATELY! Get it?!
since you really just want to run trains, the ideal thing for you might be a double ended yard used for holding complete trains. Trains can face different directions and you can run trains as you please. This yard wouldn't be used to sort cars or storage and you wouldn't necessarily exchange cars between trains.
trains could also be staged at multiple sidings at different location on your layout to hold trains, including your reverse loop. They don't all have to be in the same area.
your green siding could hold two trains. There's a blue siding top right. The reverse section. A siding could be added to your blue track lower left.
Here is a simpler concept that includes a turntable as several have suggested. Since most of my steamers are 15" or longer I would need a big turntable so 18" is shown. The turntable does take up a good bit of territory.
The track at the bottom that made up part of the wye is gone due to the turntable space constraints. Instead the passenger track is at the top. I also eliminated turnouts that led to short-ended tracks and focused on how to keep locos from being trapped when pulling cars into the yard. A small switching loco might be handy to move the cars to storage instead of running around but that would not be a bad thing. Track 1 is shown holding my passenger train including a 4-8-2 and tender. And I put some 50' freight cars on the shortest track to get a feel for storage space.
I think the general concept is more workable and worth taking some time to develop. What do you guys think?
A double-ended yard would have been nice to have but it would have taken up a huge part of my area, defeating my vision for the layout.
Just for fun I pulled up the google map for the Nevada Northern since that is where the sum total of all of my prototype yard experience is. There are dozens of storage tracks but almost all of them are dead end with few run-arounds. I know we shoved and pulled cars all over the place for a couple of hours to get things sorted out. At the time it was very confusing, especially without a map of the "layout".
Greg all of my trains and locos are now "stored" on the sidings and the reverse loop just like you describe. They all fit easily without affecting the mainlines but having that many out there is not ideal for obvious reasons.
I like this revision, too.
While a lot of the critiques would certainly apply if the prototype was a big consideration here, sometimes a model RR is just a model RR. Nothing wrong with paying attention to the prototype, if that's your thing. But I think the P word has been so drilled into people's heads that it has become the box we sometimes need to escape in order to accomplish our goals. While well-intentioned, I think Walt's made it clear he has some other goals beyond prototype modeling and there's nothing wrong with that, either.
It may be just me, but I'd be more comfortable looking at it if tracks 6-9 stayed parallel with 1-5. Other than that, it looks like it should serve the requirements you have defined.
Thanks Mike, it sounds like you understand. I've always tended not to follow the pack, and to go down roads less traveled. Its always worked for me- both personally and professionally, and especially with hobbies. I have a bookshelf full of plaques and trophies as a result of "doing things my way". Railroading is still relatively new to me but why stop now?
Carl, once I decide the general concept is good then I will start looking at how to fit in some structures, etc and that may alter the track positions a bit. I should be able to fit in a switching tower and some small buildings, and maybe a loading platform. And I need to look at what space will allow for steam servicing.
Even if it is track-heavy and not prototypical, I still want it to look nice, and more or less period-correct once completed. So that will drive some decisions.
HObbyguy
is the intent to pull a train into a yard track and turn the locomotive?
Assuming the orange car on track 5 is the locomotive, is it trapped until the cars in the train are sorted to other tracks or will the entire train back out of the yard onto the mainline?
track 9 could be used for arriving trains, allowing the engine to escape to the turntable, but it doesn't look like the length is long enough between the turnouts and the lead at the end is longer than needed.
nothing wrong with being radical, but don't you still need to be pragmatic?
gregcnothing wrong with being radical, but don't you still need to be pragmatic?
Pragmatic is a good word! That is what I am looking for.
The orange car to the far right on track 5 is not a loco, just an orange car. If it was a loco than it would have to shove the cars back to get out. Not necessarily a problem if I just wanted to park a train like that, just saying.
Yes track 9 is meant to handle incoming trains. Once the loco is released it can go to the turntable, or go back through the bypass and hook up to the train at the other end to sort/move cars onto the sidings. Or I could dedicate a switcher for this duty. If the train is very long then getting to the end may foul the blue mainline but that is not really a big problem. Remember I am a lone wolf and not planning on any other experienced operators to run trains with me. So there would be nothing running on the blue line while I am switching anyway.
Walt, build your layout the way you will run it for your own satisfaction. It is ok to ask for opinions and sift through the ones that make sense and discard those that don't. I build my layout based on no prototype, all staging is visible (gee it is called a flat switch yard) and build trains out of that. Whatever you decide on, enjoy what you are building.
theodorefiskWalt, build your layout the way you will run it for your own satisfaction.
Yeah that's the ticket. But I do appreciate advice from those experienced here- reading through all the threads and posting specific questions has kept me out of trouble more than just a few times.
I just realized last night that the Walthers 18" (130') turntable went out of production a while back and there is some scrambling on e-... to snatch up the few remaining. I searched around this morning and found a store that had one in stock for the regular discounted price. So went ahead and grabbed it. Better than the e-... scramble.
That's the one of the reasons I wanted to confirm the basic concept now, even though it will be some months before I am ready to finalize the design and start building. Not only does the final design have to work OK but the critical parts have to be available in order to build it.
Thanks guys. I will post an update when I get ready to start construction.
Maybe this will help, a diagram of the part of the basement that my layout is in. Much better and bigger than a spare bedroom, but not as expansive an area as many of you guys have. At least I have a bathroom, a shop, and also a handy outside patio to cut lumber on.
This was a band practice room years ago, and I still have my PA system, guitar amps, etc set up just for messing around by myself or with another guitar player. I have a lot of gear and the music area is really tight with the layout as it now is. If I expand further then I would need to find another location to set up the music gear. My wife would come into play if I go that far- I can do anything I want with this space, but once I go outside of it...
An interchange yard has been mentioned in other threads. Sounds interesting, but not sure what it means and how it would be set up. Remember I am not a RR buff. One thing for sure, the yard/storage I have planned can't go much further too much further to the right.
You can see some of the minor revisions I've made to the yard plan. I'll continue to play with it during coming months.