Hi
I am building PRR and NYC interchange in HO modelled in mid 1950's. On my two level layout I have a yard with 6 stub ends and I would like to make one or two of them end loading for trailers on flat cars or loading automobiles on auto cars.
How was this done? I have limited space so trailers cannot be lifted on using an overhead crane or lifted from the side.
I have seen pictures of trailers being backed up a ramp and loaded onto a flat car, but could a loader drive down a number of flat cars to make up a train? Or did an empty flat car have to be brought up for loading each time?
Same to automobiles.... how did they load more than one car? Could you drive through?
Thanks in advance guys.
Barry
Gidday Barry, about half way down this page is a video of 1950s TOFC which should help answer a few questions.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/239981.aspx?page=4
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
bsteel4065....but could a loader drive down a number of flat cars to make up a train?
Yes. The pic below shows a metal plate at the end of the car that folds up after the train is loaded.
http://www.model160.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ttx473393-F85B-Early-TOFC-loaded.jpg
Here's an old loading ramp in St. Louis that still exists.
http://binged.it/1LyLdCN
I think you might be a little early for multilevel auto rack loads if you modeling the 50's. They came into widespread use in the early sixties. Several roads played around with some form of racks for autos on flat cars earlier than that but nothing in widespread use back then, that I know of.
From the description of available space, it looks like you have to stay with "circus" style loading. That was the norm for your era anyway.
Be happy in your work.
Charlie
As shown in the video refered to by The Bear, "Circus Loading" was how it was done. And yes the drivers regulary backed the trailers on long strings of specially equipped flat cars.
Automobiles were usually carried in box cars. They were loaded through the side doors. The box cars usually had movable racks inside them so the autos could be stacked to increase capacity. There were also some box cars with large end doors, but on one end only. There was also some carrying of autos on flat cars in the mid 1950's, but this was rare. Around 1959 and for a short time thereafter some autos were transported on highway auto carrier trailers loaded on flat cars.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Early TOFC was all 'circus loaded' by backing trailers down several car lengths. The cars regularly used in this service had fold down plates (to the right when facing the end of the car from the ground) and brake wheels on a bit of car side instead of the car end.
I've seen photos of a special train-loading tractor which had a cut down cab, rather like the aircraft tug I used to move KB-50 aircraft. Only the driver's seat was enclosed.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - auto racks, no TOFC)
In addition to the large multitrack TOFC facilities near cities there were much smaller facilities in outlying communities, often only a single spur only long enough for a few cars. They fell into disuse because they were inefficent to operate.
A video of 1950's Road Rail Piggyback loading of the PRR....there are more to view on the right side of site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6WSO9lT5A
A newer video 90's era a LeTourneau side loader (like in my avatar) loading a 53ft van on a spine car. Also more vids on the side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1E9IEs3hLY
Take Care!
Frank
Hi Barry:
Details West offers the ramps that were used between the flat cars to allow trailers to be loaded 'circus style'. They are a bit modern for the 1950s but they can serve as reasonable substitutes by removing a few details:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/235-1017
For the 50s you only need the long ramps. In later years the cars were a bit further apart so they had to add the short ramps to bridge the gap.
Details West also offers the hitches to which the trailers were attached on the flat car. There are several variations but I believe this is the closest to your era:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/235-1007
Details West castings are pretty accurate in terms of not having a lot of flash so they are nice to work with.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Chuck, those tractors that you were mentioning for loading TOFCs were lovingly called "Half Shacks".
Johnboy out...............
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Thanks, Johnboy.
One way to make a 'quick and dirty' ramp was to use a de-trucked flat car. Concrete under the end sill, and no knuckle on the coupler.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Gidday Barry, about half way down this page is a video of 1950s TOFC which should help answer a few questions. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/239981.aspx?page=4 Cheers, the Bear.
Thanks The Bear!
Very helpful and with stirring music!
Thanks again
Thanks everyone for the video links, info, direction and Details West info. Very much obliged to you all as always.
Thanks again!
ndbprrSo what kept the trailer straight for all that backing? I assume the side rails were adequate as the cab could not maneuver at all.
Pretty much the driver did. There was just enough room for the steer wheels to turn a little and you wouldn't want more than that anyway. Guys who do this for a living get so they can almost do it in their sleep. Used to work loading trailers at a big grocery outfit with around 120 doors, so they get lots of practice doing that. We called the tractors "jockey" or spotter" trucks and they are specialized for this purpose with lifting 5th wheels so no need to crank dollies anymore, but back in the 50s it was just any old single axle semi-tractor.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
In the first video that zstripe linked to, there's a tractor with two steering wheels so that the driver doesn't have to look backwards. It's at the 8:12 mark in the video. It must not have been too much fun in the rain or cold.
Steve S
2 steering wheels? That is pretty unusual, I'd say, maybe even epxerimental.
I'll bet someone in mgmt got a big binus for coming up with that idea, then the guy he hired got another bonus for figuring out it was a lot cheaper to force the driver to look in a mirror and pay them even less to do it
I'm toying with the idea of scratch building one of the two steering wheel tractors. I'm sure it would raise some eyebrows!
Steven S In the first video that zstripe linked to, there's a tractor with two steering wheels so that the driver doesn't have to look backwards. It's at the 8:12 mark in the video. It must not have been too much fun in the rain or cold. Steve S
Spent many,many year's...rain, snow, sleet and freezing cold as a spotter, fuelman, hook-up man. Retired Teamster and believe me...it was worth every minute of it, if You could see my pension check every month. When they invented snowmobile suits...that was truly a Godsend.
One thing to note about "circus" style loading as practiced before the lift-on/lift-off era is all trailers must face the same direction for loading/unloading. This meant that the ramps at the point of origin must be oriented in the same direction as the ones at the destination, or some provision made to turn the consist to properly approach the ramp. In large cities, and at major junctions, wyes might be available, but in smaller towns and intermediate terminals the answer was a portable ramp that could be moved to the end of the cut where it was needed. The Louisville and Nashville had a double ended siding in its Gulfport, Mississippi yard where a couple of city streets crossed the tracks a few hundred yards apart. L&N spread gravel even with the tops of the rails, brought in a portable ramp, and handled the few piggyback loads originated or terminated in Gulfport at the impromptu parking lots adjacent to these crossings, regardless of whether they were east or westbound. Much less common and usually only done for a VERY high priority load, A car might get spun on a locomotive turntable, but only as a last resort.
zstripe Steven S In the first video that zstripe linked to, there's a tractor with two steering wheels so that the driver doesn't have to look backwards. It's at the 8:12 mark in the video. It must not have been too much fun in the rain or cold. Steve S Spent many,many year's...rain, snow, sleet and freezing cold as a spotter, fuelman, hook-up man. Retired Teamster and believe me...it was worth every minute of it, if You could see my pension check every month. When they invented snowmobile suits...that was truly a Godsend. Take Care! Frank
Hi Frank zstripe
Do you know of any drawings or photos of the ramp and loading end? It would be great to know the dimensions......
Hope you are enjoying your retirement!
Also..... I'm sure I read an article back in the 60's of trailers that had tires but also railroad wheels that were dropped down to ride on track. These trailers were then piggy backed to make up a train. Was this true or did I dream it?
Thanks
bsteel4065............or did I dream it?
Yes Roadrailers. I am sure there was an article in MRR. I have the archive but can't find it anywhere. I would have thought the weight of the rail truck on the back would have been really prohibitive. All that weight to lug around and limiting the weight that could be carried inside the trailer. Thanks for the picture btw.
Hi Barry,
Well I don't have exact dimensions for the ramps....but You can wing it....The width of a flat car and 50's to 70's trailers were limited to 98'' in width. The length would be roughly as long as the equipment being loaded was, making sure the rear wheels, whether single or tandem had enough length on the ramp, so they were perfectly flat, before approaching lip of flat car.
In Bear's link.....the C&O was the Railroad in the 60's who developed the concept of the Roadrailer.....but it fell out of favor due to the added weight of the steel wheels and equipment they needed to run the rails. That is also true of the redesigned use of Roadrailers, they also fell out of favor, again, due to added weight and are almost exclusively used in dedicated service. Railroads don't have weight restrictions on trailers running the rails....but all states have load limit restrictions on their roads and bridges, therefore, You could not put the weight on a Roadrailer and be profitable to deliver the load...they were just too heavy.
Here is a link You may enjoy reading and when You get to the site...scroll down to '' Scraphaulers'' post and in there You will find many clickable links, with pic's of a lot of Railroads who used Roadrailers, many surprises.
Thanks for the well wishes on retirement.....It's been great, for the past 14yrs....hope I have another 14...will be 73 this year.
http://indianarailroads.org/board/index.php?topic=15419.40
EDIT: I should mention....they also redesigned the Roadrailers, so they do not have any steel wheels on them anymore...they sit on railroad trucks....but again they are used mostly in dedicated service. Had a friend that used to be the crane operator that only loaded Roadrailers and He said they were a pain in the buttocks, to get together.
P.S. How far are You from Manchester? Have a friend who I help out from time to time who lives there....He is a Forum member.
50's era piggyback is one of my primary modeling subjects, and my father worked in the trucking industry in that era, and worked for the SOUTHERN railroad in their piggyback operation in the early 60's.
A few general thoughts:
Cranes - fixed track or rubber tired, piggy packers, and such did not become common place until the very late 60's and early 70's.
Jockey tractors with two steering wheels, while rare, were used by a number of railroads.
Jockey tractors with half cabs and hydraulic fifth wheels were then and are now common in the trucking business - with or without the railroad connection. They include other features like different steering rates and slow speed gearing to make precission backing, even for long distances, very easy for a skilled driver. Many such tractors will not go over 25-35 MPH in any direction.
As piggy back traffic increased, railroads did build specialized yards with multiple short tracks to reduce the number of cars loaded from each ramp. This obviously speeded the loading and unloading process.
Piggy back flats continued to have bridge plates well into the 80's as many small terminals still used circus loading/unloading.
In the 50's trailers were typically 35' max, 40' trailers were not legal nation wide until '57 or '58?
The fifth wheel "hitch", invented late in '55, did not come into wide spread use until 1958 or so. But well into the 60's you could still fine trailers jacked and chained to flat cars.
While rarely modeled, a measuable percentage of early piggy back flats that carried a single 32' or 35' trailer were only 40' long. A number of railroads used underframes from obsolete 40' box cars to build such cars in their own shops.
The creation of TrailerTrain quickly brought standardization to the equipment and ended all the custom flat cars made in railroad home shops.
Different railroads saw piggyback in different ways at first. Some saw it as way to serve "off line" customers, some saw it as a way to get deeper into the "LCL" business, and some saw it as a way to simply compete with the trucks and/or partner with them. In the end it did all these things, but it would have done them sooner and better if not for foolish government regulations.
Based simply on safety and fuel economy they is little reason to have many long haul trucks on our highways, but because the government did not "get out of the way" until 1983, we still have a transportation infrastructure that includes long haul trucking.
Sheldon
Hi Frank
Thanks for all of that! Excellent info.
Manchester? Long way unfortunately. I am way down on the south coast in Hampshire near Portsmouth. And now I've retired (best thing I ever did and also with a great pension btw) I don't travel anywhere near there.
Thanks again! And take care....
Hi Sheldon
Thanks for all the excellent information. I shall now digest!
Cheers
bsteel4065 Hi Sheldon Thanks for all the excellent information. I shall now digest! Cheers Barry
Barry, you are most welcome. Feel free to address me with any additional questions you may have.