Hey yall, I was just thinking about my dream layout for the barn, would it be very interesting to build a layout in scale form, 60' to the mile, with no compression, from Kokomo Grain on Morgan Street to the Tipton diamond? The railroad would be my fictional regional, Indy Rail. I'm just not sure if operators would get very much excitement from this since it would all be just open space and a few side tracks. I know this layout would be big, probably a walk-in 95x45'.
Indianapolis Railroad - Indy Rail! Route of the Brickyard Flyer! Established 1976.
Well, since you're going all out (in imagination if not reality), why not a second level with more involved track & operational scenerios?)
If this is a fictional railroad, how would anyone know if it was compressed or not?
Compression is not just about space, it's about making the layout interesting. This kind reminds me of a review of a submarine simulation for the PC I read years ago. The reviewer said "it accurately simulates the extreme boredom of the long periods of time between combat engagements". I think you could do the same thing on a model railroad without compression.
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The railroad is proto-freelanced. The layout (which will be real) is set between Kokomo and Tipton, Indiana. The railroad on the layout is set so that the Company was formed in 1983 and bought the line from the N&W before they abandoned it which happened in real life. Since the only commodity on the layout is grain and the grain is loaded in Kokomo and delivered to Tipton, I figured why not? What I'm asking is would this railroad with small yards at each end and a siding with a mainline run of over 900' be very operations friendly? Boredome is not so much a factor as many real operaters face that many times a day and the main goal with this layout is to achieve maximum believeabilty and detail.
900' is about 15 scale miles. Is that about the distance you are trying to model. The line you describe sounds very much like the little branch line that runs from Newark, OH through my little berg of Utica on its way up to Mt. Vernon. It was a branch of the Ohio Central before it was sold to Genessee so I don't know if it is still called the Ohio Central or not. One train a day goes up the branch to the grain elevators in Mt. Vernon and then back to Newark. It goes past the grain elevators in Utica but I don't know if it actually serves those since I've never seen a car spotted there. Typically it runs with 8-10 60 box cars. The track is not in the best of shape so speeds are restricted.
Originally this was a major branch of the B&O that ran all the way into northern Ohio to connect with the east-west lines in that area. Now, all the track has been torn up north of Mt. Vernon and the branch is probably a little over 20 miles long.
Even though it sounds like a fairly simple track plan, 900' is a lot of layout to fully scenic. That will be a lot of work so I would be asking myself if after all that work is operating it going to be satisfying.
I have attempted to minimize (but not totally eliminate) compression on my layout, but due to the inevitable curves and other limitations I actually have found myself stretching space in some areas, and compressing in others. Each compromise I have to make tends to bug me no end.
But I had a particular goal -- recreating the train watching I did as a teenager. Interesting operation is not the primary or even secondary goal. And I well remember the long stretches of standing there when there were no trains. That too will be modeled.
Dave Nelson
Kokomo Grain is on the far north side of Kokomo, and Tipton is southeast of Kokomo. Since Kokomo is a good sized town, you'd have a lot of buildings to model...downtown street running too, no?
Ops would consist of one unit grain train moving slowly through town and trundling slowly through the countryside...a long time with no curves (as few as possible on the layout). I think it would get boring to operate, but it would be an interesting project to research and build.
To spruce up ops, you could model the Kokomo Chrysler plant still receiving rail service, and possibly an industry near Tipton. I think at one time there may have been a fert dealer near there that got rail service.
My concern with more true to scale layouts is the amount and size of the buildings compared to trains. The amount of buildings needed to bring it to proper scale tends to dominate any scene, IMO.
- Douglas
Most operating modelers consider "play value" to be fairly important. Right now I'm revising some of my earlier plans to enhance the amount and variety of industrial switching, interchange, yard action, etc. If none of this is important to you at all, then it's not up to me to say you're wrong. But I suspect the layout may not be very exciting to operate, once it's done. Seems to me like a lot of space for very little return.
YMMV, of course.
Tom
Two major problems with an uncompressed model railroad:
On the other hand, there is one very successful 'un-compressed' model railroad - Tim Warris' CNJ Bronx freight terminal. Of course, it's only the size of a New York City block, not miles and miles of countryside.
Chuck (Modeling a moderately compressed stretch of Central Japan in September, 1964)
From earlier layouts I have found that for me, just watching the trains run is not enough.
My current layout based on the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR is designed to have a lot of switching. Since the line was 77 miles long, I have compressed out most of it. Mainline length through the yards at each end will be about 200 feet - that's if it all gets built. The first half is under construction. The second half will depend on my experience with the first half - I may find that's all I really want.
Enjoy
Paul
In the plains it might be a little boring to not compress anything. Did you know that everything at Disneyland (other than the restrooms) is compressed? I do like the idea of long stretches that you actually have to do some hiking to get to the next switch. My dream layout is so big that instead of walking their dog, people will come to it to walk their trains. However I would have a lot of variety in the scenery to make it more interesting.
I have seen the Union Pacific's working N scale model of the hump yard in Hinkle Oregon. It was really big. It would fill a big chunk of your barn.
tomikawaTT Two major problems with an uncompressed model railroad: Construction, unless confined to very narrow shelves, would take forever. Operation would consist mainly of running through miles and miles of very little beside miles and miles. On the other hand, there is one very successful 'un-compressed' model railroad - Tim Warris' CNJ Bronx freight terminal. Of course, it's only the size of a New York City block, not miles and miles of countryside. Chuck (Modeling a moderately compressed stretch of Central Japan in September, 1964)
I will take exception to the idea of taking excessive amounts of time to build benchwork etc.
I have helped to build over 20 layouts in the last 15 years and benchwork (at least the type we do) goes up quick and is strong.
If we have the basic design and the Layout Owner can keep my son and I supplied with lumber and the Layout owner can help (as in knowing which end of the drill to hold) and the basement room is empty enough that we don't spend and time moving junk out of the road to build said benchwork - we have filled most of a 900 sq ft area with basic benchwork in a day!
YES - a day!
Now there isn't any subroadbed on - just the basic L-girder and joists.
The biggest problems is being able to cut the lumber fast enough to keep up with the L-girders.
Having the lumber - for the most part - precut will make our work that much faster.
And no we are NOT professionals - we just like to help others build layouts and have learned along time ago - we don't have to be cabinet quality benchwork as some think they need to do!
As the old saying goes - Work Smarter NOT Harder! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
TrAcKr76 Boredome is not so much a factor as many real operaters face that many times a day
I certainly think boredom is an issue. I would not want to attend an operating system where a run around manuver takes 15 minutes, followed by 30 minutes (assuming 24mph) of running the train to the other end of the line.
BOB H.,
I agree that BENCHWORK goes up fast - even intricate benchwork for a multi-layered monster that fills a double garage. Steel (my material of choice) probably goes up even faster than forest products.
Roadbed can go in fast, once you figure out how the spaghetti (track plan) will go on the plate (raw benchwork.)
Sectional track can be assembled fast - if you are willing to settle for toy train operating standards. Serious trackwork to non-standard radii including proper horizontal and vertical easements - not so fast.
One coat of green paint on plywood - fast. More serious landforms, foliage, structures, fences, roads, vehicles, people...
Then, too, what happens when the wheels hit the rails. The hand holding the throttle ISN'T holding the rail nipper, pliers, soldering gun, speed handle...
If the object is simply to lay 25 miles of first main track on the Plywood Pacific, it would be 'finished' about the time the credit card statements for the materials arrive. If, instead, the object is to build a visually interesting representation of a 1:1 scale railroad...
Even paid professionals, working as a team, need time to build a quality empire.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If non-compression is also a part of your track geometry, you're going to be working with some pretty broad curves. A mainline 2 degree curvature works out to be a 395.2" radius ...
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Selective compression is a good thing! It makes things far more interesting than reality.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
jecorbett900' is about 15 scale miles. Is that about the distance you are trying to model. The line you describe sounds very much like the little branch line that runs from Newark, OH through my little berg of Utica on its way up to Mt. Vernon.
That is how much track the LION has in a 24' x 27' room, running on three levels along the walls, and two blobs.
Nine Miles is the run between 242nd Street and South Ferry and back. The other miles are on the express loops.
It takes 20 minutes for the local to make a round trip. With six trains running at once they are about four minutes apart (with recovery time at 242nd Street)
That is an advantage of not having compression : Your time tables make more sense. You can keep on telling people that your stations are six miles apart, but if the train gets there in on minute or two what is the point. The service remains analog instead of fantasylog.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I agree with the comment about miles and miles of miles and miles. 800" of running at 25 mph is 30 minutes, at 50mph it is 15 minutes. I would become bored with shuffling along to watch the train, but not having to do anything, sooner take my dog for a walk.
However if you build this layout, might I suggest that as soon as you get the track down you place a few cardboard boxes to simulate the various structures and run the train a few times. If this pleases you, you have a lifetime to scenic things. If not, modifications are easier the less you have done.
Dave
Model Railroad Planning 2005, cover article, Blueprint for a Model Railroad, page 8. Since publication, that railroad has expanded. The town of Winchester is to scale. Distances between towns are shortened, but not so much that trains occupy two towns at once. Proof that the principle works, but only if you use good judgment.
ACYModel Railroad Planning 2005, cover article, Blueprint for a Model Railroad, page 8. Since publication, that railroad has expanded. The town of Winchester is to scale.
That’s a fine layout design, but it is not uncompressed, at least according to the article. Note the text on page 10 describing the process of designing Winchester: “By selectively compressing some buildings and the distances between some turnouts …”
Note also that the Winchester area alone provides much more operating interest than the Original Poster is planning for his theoretical much larger space. There is a lesson there.
A number of folks have posted in this and other forums about their plans to model large areas with no compression –- almost without exception in spaces that don’t yet exist (or to which they do not hold title). I don’t recall any of these uncompressed layouts ever being built.
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OK, Cuyama. I'll concede that there's a little compression. But I've seen the layout, and not much was left out (the freight house has one track instead of two, for example).
You're certainly right when you say Winchester has a lot more operating potential than the O.P.'s suggested layout, whether the layout consists of Winchester alone, or whether it's part of a larger layout. You're also right about the number of grandiose plans that never get converted into actual layouts.
For me, I want a layout that does more than just run from here to there. To each his own.
Compress the distance between the interesting bits but leave the industries and signature scenes to scale. That's the basic concept of FreeMo...no compression is needed (as long as you can fit all the modules in your mode of transportation).
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
delray1967That's the basic concept of FreeMo...no compression is needed (as long as you can fit all the modules in your mode of transportation).
Free-mo specifies only the module dimensions, it doesn't mention what goes on them and whether that modeling should be compressed or not. I can't think of any HO scale Free-mo modules I have seen that aren't compressed, but it's not part of the standards. I've seen a few uncompressed N scale Free-mo modules.
HO Free-mo standards
Free-mo N