Have you ever seen a backdrop on a 1:1 scale layout?
Actual photo by LION of BROADWAY!
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My basement is a walk-out and it is insulated and on the central AC system. Since I've never torn it apart I don't know how it is sealed, but so as far as basements go the humidity is very consistent- not much different than the main house. And in the 15 years we've been here I've never seen any movement or bowing in the paneling, even before we painted over it. I agree that sealing would be good insurance though.
Screwing into the cheap paneling is not an option- I know from experience that it is not thick enough to hold screws. But I tacked up a 3x4 section of masonite with my brad gun yesterday and it looks like that method will work well. I only hit it 4 times and the panel is very secure.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
Doughless HObbyguy I have a good pneumatic brad gun and I am thinking of using it to fasten masenite directly to the wall paneling, maybe with some contact cement at the top and at the seams for added support. One thing about Masonite...it will absorb humidity rather badly if you do not seal (paint) it. If butted together, it expands and gets really wavy in the summer humidity, even with it being very secure to the wall. You'll want to paint all four sides of the sheet with two coats of paint to get a good seal before installing it or any other backdrop material on it. I learned this the hard way.
HObbyguy I have a good pneumatic brad gun and I am thinking of using it to fasten masenite directly to the wall paneling, maybe with some contact cement at the top and at the seams for added support.
I have a good pneumatic brad gun and I am thinking of using it to fasten masenite directly to the wall paneling, maybe with some contact cement at the top and at the seams for added support.
One thing about Masonite...it will absorb humidity rather badly if you do not seal (paint) it. If butted together, it expands and gets really wavy in the summer humidity, even with it being very secure to the wall. You'll want to paint all four sides of the sheet with two coats of paint to get a good seal before installing it or any other backdrop material on it. I learned this the hard way.
My basement does tend to have high humidity during the summer months and although I do run a dehumidifier during the summer, there are long periods of time where the dehumidifier sits full and not running. My Masonite is screwed to the knotty-pine paneling behind it. It was not painted on both sides and had I thought about this I likely would have put some type of sealer on it. Still, I haven't really experienced any real problems with it excepting a crack at the seam, which I can live with and fix if it ever really starts to bother me.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
mlehman DoughlessOne thing about Masonite...it will absorb humidity rather badly if you do not seal (paint) it. If butted together, it expands and gets really wavy in the summer humidity, even with it being very secure to the wall. You'll want to paint all four sides of the sheet with two coats of paint to get a good seal before installing it or any other backdrop material on it. I learned this the hard way. Yes, painting is one way to deal with this. In my case, the vapor barrier was part of the foam insulation -- the foil it was covered with.You can also use sheet plastic, etc. I simply glued the foil-covered foam to the unfinished block wall of the basement, then glued the unfinished masonite to the foam. I've had no issues, except where I managed to get a seam right over a window well. The well was covered and insulated, but there's enough movement to cause the seam to loosen a little. Other than that, not really directly related to moisture, no issues at all. My basement is one of the drier ones in town, but it's a town of wet basements, so I think it's been well tested, especially given central air wasn't installed until about 5 years ago.
DoughlessOne thing about Masonite...it will absorb humidity rather badly if you do not seal (paint) it. If butted together, it expands and gets really wavy in the summer humidity, even with it being very secure to the wall. You'll want to paint all four sides of the sheet with two coats of paint to get a good seal before installing it or any other backdrop material on it. I learned this the hard way.
Yes, painting is one way to deal with this.
In my case, the vapor barrier was part of the foam insulation -- the foil it was covered with.You can also use sheet plastic, etc.
I simply glued the foil-covered foam to the unfinished block wall of the basement, then glued the unfinished masonite to the foam. I've had no issues, except where I managed to get a seam right over a window well. The well was covered and insulated, but there's enough movement to cause the seam to loosen a little. Other than that, not really directly related to moisture, no issues at all. My basement is one of the drier ones in town, but it's a town of wet basements, so I think it's been well tested, especially given central air wasn't installed until about 5 years ago.
It probably helped that you attached the Masonite to foam and concrete, both materials do not expand much. I attached mine to a stud wall. The wooden studs absorbed humidity too and probably contributed to the problem.
HObbyguy mentioned attaching the Masonite to paneling. Point being that its not just the Masonite that needs to be considered, but also the material it is being attached to.
- Douglas
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There was a great article in the July/August issue of N-Scale Magazine by Arnie Steiner on using portable backdrops. The article was meant more for island/table top format layouts but could be adapted for any smaller to medium sized layout in N or HO scale. It involved using photo backdrops for photographic purposes, but I think the idea could be taken a step forward to allow an operator to, by using the same photo backdrop, change the season of his/her layout, or using a different photo backdrop, change the region/area of the layout to account for time/distance.
Happy modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
Outstanding thread, so many good points made and great example pics. I don't know where the OP went but he can't be disappointed with the response!
Things that I learned-
My Dad has been working on a 4x8 and also ready to do the backdrop. But he has an advantage- he was responsible for global mfg for an artist supply company for many years and knows a lot of artists. So he is planning a custom-painted backdrop by someone that really knows what they are doing. I need 36' linear feet of backdrop for my larger plan and don't know any artists around here that I would trust (or could afford!) And don't have the talent, time, or desire to take on such a big project. So a commercially available scene is the best option for me.
Final issue, how to get the backing against my old paneled walls that are not well-supported by wood framing. I have a good pneumatic brad gun and I am thinking of using it to fasten masenite directly to the wall paneling, maybe with some contact cement at the top and at the seams for added support. With the gun I can put in as many brads as it takes in very short order. And then glue molding across the top of the masenite to help stabilize it and dress it up a bit.
DoughlessReally an exceptional job. I hope you can reproduce the same effect on your next layout.
Doughless - you are right about the distance. The whole layout was just about 1 ft. deep - which was quite a challenge to create some visual depth.
My next layout will have nothing more than a very light bluish-gray backdrop - no structures, no hills. The layout will be depicting a scene situated on an island off the North Sea coast in Germany, where gray is the predominant color of the sky. The layout will be a set of "boxes" linked with fiddle yards. It is intended to be fully transportable by one person, so I can take it to shows.
Sir Madog I have been reading this thread with great interest. Over those many moons I have been into model railroading I have come to the conclusion that a backdrop can make or break the appearance of a layout. Quite a lot of the photo realistic backdrops are too crisp to stay in the background, thus dominating the scene. Objects in a distance tend to get blurred, due to haze, but hardly a backdrop takes that into account. Sometimes, hand-painted backdrops work much better, because the have less sharp details. The pictures show scenes on one of my former layouts. Isn´t it hard to tell where the scene ends and the backdrop starts?
I have been reading this thread with great interest.
Over those many moons I have been into model railroading I have come to the conclusion that a backdrop can make or break the appearance of a layout. Quite a lot of the photo realistic backdrops are too crisp to stay in the background, thus dominating the scene. Objects in a distance tend to get blurred, due to haze, but hardly a backdrop takes that into account. Sometimes, hand-painted backdrops work much better, because the have less sharp details.
The pictures show scenes on one of my former layouts. Isn´t it hard to tell where the scene ends and the backdrop starts?
Ulrich, the backdrops and how they blend into the scene is fantastic. Your point about haze and distance is very good.
As far as the challenge of where the backdrops start, only because of your explanation about haze do I think I know. I looked for the haze. I would say on both scenes, the backdrops meet the layout where the grey paved road or parking areas begin. (In the first picture, the yellow tree is part of the backdrop whereas the green tree is not. I had to look very closely to make that distinction. In the second picture the twin evergreens are part of the backdrop, but I can't tell if the blue spruce and the other tree is or not.)
I only say this because the backdrops are slightly hazier than the foreground, as it should be like you pointed out. And I know that since this is a model layout, there is only a few inches at most separating the locomotive from the buildings, and there can't be that much haze in your layout room . Without you making a point to discuss the haze, I would have had much more trouble finding the break.
Really an exceptional job. I hope you can reproduce the same effect on your next layout.
This is another part of the layout (it is a club layout). This back drop is about 20 inches high by 24 feet long.
We used 5 scenes from Rail Graphics, imported them to Photo Shop to make a scene of the required size and it was also printed on a self adhesive vinyl. The sky and clouds are hand painted.
This is a work in progress.
Jack W.
After being grilled for hours by the "security team" that wouldn't show me their badges and who confiscated my camera's SD card, I was released. By then it was dark, so I took some more pics at a bit more discrete distance.
The station was open and actually has some supplies and snacks that come in handy for wandering railfans. I bought a donut and another SD card, then walked over to the entrance at CCCP, where I snapped a pic of their sign as a freight passed on the main.
Then I went back to the station and managed to sneak another shot of the URACAM main gate while "taking train pictures." The backdrops in the lower deck work great for night scene photography. The L-girder framing is painted black to help disguise it when lit, so it just disappears "at night."
Then I went back to the station and managed to sneak another shot of the URACAM main gate while "taking train pictures."
The backdrops in the lower deck work great for night scene photography. The L-girder framing is painted black to help disguise it when lit, so it just disappears "at night."
Craig,
My N scale Aroostook Valley - a short line in Northern Maine - features photo backdrops taken by a friend, Lennart Svedberg, in southern Sweden! He took the photos, photo-shopped out the obvious European style buildings, and there you go! I simply printed the photos out on a color printer, trimmed away the sky, and pasted them to my sky-blue sky board behind the scenes. You could do the same in an area you think resembles what you want to model.
Geof
http://avrinnscale.blogspot.com/
HObbyguyWhat I am quickly realizing is that this is difficult to achieve without designing the layout edge to match the backdrop selected. And since most of the edge of my phase 1 is already built its a bit late for that now.
Well, don't despair. There are different ways to do that. Trees, bushes, those stickers I used over paint (Note: The evergreen stickers are printed on clear stock, so the spaces between the limbs let the color of "deeper in the forest" bleed through. It works well), even just tall reeds or grasses. Tomkat13's use of flats is another go to solution, if being a little urban works for the situation. For instance, the town of Silverton is currently a long flat (6'-ish) that screens the Silverton Northern branch as it climbs behind the town. Then there are trees on a low relief sidehill, then the stickers, and finally the mural. You don't need all that and even one layer is better than none.
Funny that backdrops just came up as a very active discussion topic.. After waiting for a month the backdrop sample that I ordered was finally in the mailbox when I got home today. Its only a 4" x 18" strip so still very hard to picture what the full-size backdrop would look like behind my layout which is still very much a work-in-progress.
In addition to perspective the other important factor to consider is scale. Foreground objects in the backdrop should be reasonably close to the size at the edge of the layout, unless there is something to break the view. Looking at Jack's landscape for example (which I think really looks great!) the rock "wall" at the edge allows the viewer to see smaller foreground objects as being further away since we just imagine that closer objects are hidden by the wall.
What I am quickly realizing is that this is difficult to achieve without designing the layout edge to match the backdrop selected. And since most of the edge of my phase 1 is already built its a bit late for that now.
Painting a custom backdrop has an advantage in that regard.
One thing about multi-deck layouts. They do reduce the need for tall backdrops. In fact, they offer space that's often just big enough for a regular size sheet of paper, so are easily printed at home in many cases, as I di here. This scene is sorta halfway done and needs lot more details, etc.
So here are some more pics of the backdrops and other tricks I used to build URACAM (the top secret Uranium Corporation of America), which is the AEC (Atomic Energy Commission) contractor that operates the Dove Creek Uranium Enrichment Facility (whoops, now I've officially said too much )
Not seen in these pics is the next door neighbor, a large quarry and concrete production facility started a few years back by some foreign investors after the URACAM project was announced, CCCP (Colorado Concrete Corporation ).
Anyway, as you can see, from this angle a large facility of thousands of acres starts at the front gate. You can also see Highway 666 as it continues west toward Utah, as does the railroad.
A fellow can make a pretty good salary here. Look there goes a Cadillac right now through the gate. And it's not too stressful, they say, provided one is past the child-bearing stage in the family You do have to keep certain things in mind about the job...like keeping them in mind only. The track onto the base get a lot of use, with a wide variety of sometimes curious rolling stock. It also helps to say you're a railfan if you standing around taking pics outside this place...Uh-oh, gotta go now, there are some uniformed guys pulling up in an armored SUV... thanks for looking at my pics...if they ever get posted
A fellow can make a pretty good salary here. Look there goes a Cadillac right now through the gate. And it's not too stressful, they say, provided one is past the child-bearing stage in the family
You do have to keep certain things in mind about the job...like keeping them in mind only. The track onto the base get a lot of use, with a wide variety of sometimes curious rolling stock. It also helps to say you're a railfan if you standing around taking pics outside this place...Uh-oh, gotta go now, there are some uniformed guys pulling up in an armored SUV... thanks for looking at my pics...if they ever get posted
You do have to keep certain things in mind about the job...like keeping them in mind only.
The track onto the base get a lot of use, with a wide variety of sometimes curious rolling stock. It also helps to say you're a railfan if you standing around taking pics outside this place...Uh-oh, gotta go now, there are some uniformed guys pulling up in an armored SUV... thanks for looking at my pics...if they ever get posted
I have used my moderate artistic abilities to paint my backdrops. That way they match what is viewed in the foreground colors and has similar landscape. It was time consuming and required that the back drops be finished previously to adding some of the foreground scenery to those locations that were going to be a deep reach to paint. However, I enjoyed the process of painting my back drops. They don't look as good as photographs, I guess. At the time I did them, the general consensus was that back drops were not supposed to be all that detailed as it draws attention away from the trains. Whether this is actually the case, I really don't care. Similar to enjoying building all my models from kits, it's the building of these things and the processes involved, that is the most enjoyable aspect of this hobby, to me!
Although aluminum sheet is lighter, I didn't find 1/8th inch thick Masonite to be difficult to mount; or, handle! I sealed the seams with spackling compound.
mlehman Since I didn't take these specifically to illustrate the backdrop, they're from a bad viewing angle. ..... Once you're looking into the scene correctly, they work much better. So that's another point about backdrops, be sure to consider using various forms of forced perspective to "frame" them for the viewer, as it really helps make them work..
Since I didn't take these specifically to illustrate the backdrop, they're from a bad viewing angle. ..... Once you're looking into the scene correctly, they work much better. So that's another point about backdrops, be sure to consider using various forms of forced perspective to "frame" them for the viewer, as it really helps make them work..
Yes Mike,
I think that consideration of the proper viewing angle goes a long long ways in conveying realism. I'm 6 feet tall and my layout is 4 feet tall. I will always be looking down on my layout. Looking into the backdrop, I should see the tops of buildings, trees, and fields. More of the tops up close and fewer of the tops as it fades into the distance.
A photo that is being used for the backdrop should be taken from the same basic viewing angle as we typically have for our layouts. The better layouts keep this viewing angle consistent from the very front of the layout all the way through the backdrop.
Other backdrops are designed for layouts that are more eye level, where you mainly see the fronts of the buildings, tress and such, and not much of the tops at all. This is also why building flats don't work well on my layout, yet would work very well on a layout that was designed for eye level viewing.
The layouts (and photos BTW) that keep the viewing angle consistent throughout the benchwork and backdrops tend to be the more impressive ones because it makes it more difficult to see where the backdrop and benchwork meet. (This is also why a layout that looks great in photographs sometimes doesn't look quite as good in person. Its because of the variety of angles we view the layout when in person, compared to the optimal angle the scene was photographed).
Just something to keep in mind before we spend $250 on a backdrop. Make sure to take into account the height of your layout and the perspective of the backdrop you're considering.
richhotrain NP2626 I used Masonite for my back drops, I found it to work well. My back drops are 2 feet tall, so a 4X8 sheet yields 16 linear feet of back drop. This material easily bent to the radius' I needed. I found it to be excellent for the use I put it too! Mark, which thickness? 1/8 inch? Rich
NP2626 I used Masonite for my back drops, I found it to work well. My back drops are 2 feet tall, so a 4X8 sheet yields 16 linear feet of back drop. This material easily bent to the radius' I needed. I found it to be excellent for the use I put it too!
I used Masonite for my back drops, I found it to work well. My back drops are 2 feet tall, so a 4X8 sheet yields 16 linear feet of back drop. This material easily bent to the radius' I needed. I found it to be excellent for the use I put it too!
Mark, which thickness? 1/8 inch?
Rich
1/8th
I use photo scenes that I scale down to fit plus building flats all on card-stock.
Jack,
That's a lot of sweet-looking landscape! Even behind the underpass.
Reminds me of another spot where I have some mini-backdropish stuff going on, in Dove Creek, site of a hush-hush AEC plant located on the lower deck of my layout.
Since I didn't take these specifically to illustrate the backdrop, they're from a bad viewing angle. At close to eye level they work great. There's actually another one further back in the "depot" not seen here. Once you're looking into the scene correctly, they work much better. So that's another point about backdrops, be sure to consider using various forms of forced perspective to "frame" them for the viewer, as it really helps make them work. I'll take some better pics and post them later to show the difference.
Since I didn't take these specifically to illustrate the backdrop, they're from a bad viewing angle. At close to eye level they work great. There's actually another one further back in the "depot" not seen here. Once you're looking into the scene correctly, they work much better. So that's another point about backdrops, be sure to consider using various forms of forced perspective to "frame" them for the viewer, as it really helps make them work.
I'll take some better pics and post them later to show the difference.
This back drop was made using Rail Graphics pictures. These were imported into Photoshop and assembled to make a picture of some 20 inches by 15 feet. It was printed on a self adhesive vinyl. The sky and clouds are hand painted and the vinyl was laser cut at the tree top by the printer. Total cost was $80.
Two more backdrop were also printed using the same method one of them is some 20 inches by 24 feet and the price was also around $80.
HObbyguy There are always options, just some better than others. I am building the RR at the end of a finished basement in an older home and I've got three walls to work with...
There are always options, just some better than others.
I am building the RR at the end of a finished basement in an older home and I've got three walls to work with...
This is very similar to the situation with my backdrops. That's why with the latest ones on the Cascade Branch I went with aluminum flashing. I only need to fasten it right at the top and the flashing just hangs there quite nicely. Usually there's at least a footer board place on top of basement foundations that the joists for the first floor sit on, so there's almost always something solid there that's not concrete to fasten to, no matter what went over it.
The earlier work in the main layout room was either on the dividing stud-and-drywall or on the outside walls of the basement. For those, I glued foiled foam sheet to the wall so that it was horizontally oriented, taking it well below the ground level outside. I then glued 1/8" masonite over and primed it to form the base of the backdrop.
Alton Junction
Yes, hanging masenite is one of the options. Just that it is heavy so needs to be well supported, and attaching it to the paneling would be a bit of a challenge since I can't find any studs.
I am building the RR at the end of a finished basement in an older home and I've got three walls to work with. One is conventional wallboard that I would rather not mess up. The other two are old-style paneling. The paneling is mounted up against the block foundation with a layer of fiber insulation in-between. I never have figured out how the paneling is actually mounted- it is reasonably flat but I've never located any studs behind it and the seams are not perfectly matched. Something really needs to go over it to keep the backdrop flat.
Spacing across the width of the room is pretty critical, and taking up a couple of inches with backdrop frames on both sides would create some hassles.
I have some pretty big elevation changes in the layout design. I plan on ordering from backdropwarehouse.com and there is very little difference in cost for 24" and 36" with their pricing structure, so no real downside to going with the taller backdrop.
HObbyguy I am planning for a 36" backdrop around 3 walls so the expense of the backboard is also a bit of a factor. For various reasons building a support frame is not an option for me, and there are also issues with attaching the backdrop directly to the existing walls.
I am planning for a 36" backdrop around 3 walls so the expense of the backboard is also a bit of a factor.
For various reasons building a support frame is not an option for me, and there are also issues with attaching the backdrop directly to the existing walls.
If building a support frame is not an option for you, and if there are also issues with attaching the backdrop directly to the existing walls, haven't you run out of options. How are you going to mount the backdrop?
Also, when you mentioned the 36" backdrop, I assume you are referring to the height. If so, do you really need to cover all 36" with the background scene. Since much of it will likely be sky, why not order a shorter backdrop, then computer match the color of the sky and paint it in.