Lion, thanks for answering my questions. I spent quite a bit of time looking over your diagram and explanations.
It's interesting how you draw power from the next station to latch the relay closed by the guard circuit. It took me a while to figure this out.
I also think it interesting how the next block needs to determine the yellow/green aspect of the current block unless it becomes red when occupied. Relay logic is before my time. It is interesting to see how you solved the problem using relays and wire connections, compared to how I might with diodes, transistors or digital logic and fewer wire connections.
I was also thinking about the existing relay tied to the timer and used to start the train. Ideally, that circuit would only be enabled by a green or possibly yellow aspect (blue wire). But as you said, that circuit has been in place for years and works fine.
this is really interesting to me. Yet another thing i've learned from model railroading.
thanks
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Answers...
gregc1) i assume the green (-) and red (+) horizontal lines are power
1) Green = GROUND - [Building Ground] (Or common if you must) {OK, just call it -12vdc} Red = +12vdc (well actually I am using track voltage here since my track power is always on.
gregc2) there's a group of 5 circles under "RELAY 1". Are the bottom two the coil, and the upper 3 the switch with the common contact on the right? when the relay is energized, does the common contact on the right connect to the middle contact ("To Station Track and Green Signal")?
2) Relay 1 is a single pole single throw relay, these have been in place for years. I was going to connect a signal to it (thus the two outputs) but I have canned that idea, so all it will do is bridge a gap in the track. Pull the relay and the gap is closed otherwise the gap is open. Since my railroad is automated, the TIMER is the device that release the train from the station. There are four 15 second pulses that pull these relays in to release a train from the station. This has been working for several years now. But the new signal system will allow more trains on the railroad, and so I cannot count on departure times to keep trains from running into each other on the railroad. Thus the new signal system. The new relay will disable power to Relay 1 until the first train has left the NEXT station. The relay coil is to ground, the TIMER circuit to the other side of the coil, the one that is switched is positive.
Timer:
gregc3) there are two clusters of 6 circles on the right, plus two circles beneath them (above the green line). Is this all one relay with 2 dbl-pole dbl-throw switches? which are the coil and switch contacts? which are the common switch contacts and what do they connect to when the relay is active and not active?
3) The two clusters of six circles is really on cluster of 12 circles and is the second (new) relay. The other two circles are the coil of this relay. It is a 4PDT relay. It is typical of this kind of relay that the bottom connector be common and the top connector be the normal or not-pulled position. When the coil activates the bottom and middle rows are connected.
gregc4) i assume this circuit is duplicated at each block. Is the cat-5 connection upper-left connected to the cat-5 connector bottom-right in the duplicated block circuit to the left of this one (and similarly for the bottom-right connector to the block to the right)? Is the train moving to the right or left?
4) Yes, this circuit is duplicated in each block. because of the compression necessary there is only one block for each station, however I will have about 4our signals between each station so that it will appear to be more prototyppical, but all of these signals between stations are wires as one signal.
gregc 5) when the orange timer circuit is active, is it power or ground? (i think ground) 6) when the guard circuit is active (occupied) does it provide power or ground? (power)
5) when the orange timer circuit is active, is it power or ground? (i think ground)
6) when the guard circuit is active (occupied) does it provide power or ground? (power)
5,6) The timer provides positive power to the starting or track relay (Relay 1), the other side of the coil is ground.
On a more typically wired layout (without a timer) you could eliminate this relay (1) and just use the new relay to isolate the block ahead of this one from any power until it clears.
gregc7) are the red, yellow and green colored circles below "From timer circuit" the signal itself? Why is there a line (top right) that says "To Red Station Signal"?
7) No what is drawn on the diagram are simply binding posts for the wires, the signal is up on the layout. wires from the signals will be connected here. It is labeled so that I know what it is doing. From Relay 1 I was going to provide a separate signal to the station signal, but I have decided not to do this. So that relay will only start the train by closing the last gap.
Yes the trains are moving from left to right on this diagram. I did not show the north bound circuits.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
thanks for posting the diagram. if your willing, i'd like more information about what things mean in the diagram
1) i assume the green (-) and red (+) horizontal lines are power
2) there's a group of 5 circles under "RELAY 1". Are the bottom two the coil, and the upper 3 the switch with the common contact on the right? when the relay is energized, does the common contact on the right connect to the middle contact ("To Station Track and Green Signal")?
3) there are two clusters of 6 circles on the right, plus two circles beneath them (above the green line). Is this all one relay with 2 dbl-pole dbl-throw switches? which are the coil and switch contacts? which are the common switch contacts and what do they connect to when the relay is active and not active?
4) i assume this circuit is duplicated at each block. Is the cat-5 connection upper-left connected to the cat-5 connector bottom-right in the duplicated block circuit to the left of this one (and similarly for the bottom-right connector to the block to the right)? Is the train moving to the right or left?
7) are the red, yellow and green colored circles below "From timer circuit" the signal itself? Why is there a line (top right) that says "To Red Station Signal"?
yes, i think everything will be clearer if you spell everything out starting with the basics. (i'm an elec eng). This looks like an ambitious project with an interesting solution.
There are two relays shown, the smaller relay in the upper left corner already exists on the layout and has been working for years, it simply releases a train from the station at the correct time.
The new circuit shows the main relay (Call it a southbound relay) operates signals and disables the starter relay in the event that the block is occupied.
There are two cat-5 cables, represented by the sets of eight dots. These daisy chain the signal blocks together. The orange and brown wires are for the northbound relay, since this is a two track mane lion.
I hope this helps you.
BroadwayLionAnyway, that Guard circuit pulls the relay in, but of course it will fall out again unless there was something to hold the circuit closed. That something is the relay in the next block. That relay has not pulled in yet, because the train is here and not there. So that second relay will hold this first relay until the train reaches that second relay and releases this relay. Simple so far, yes? The train is automated, a timer pulls in the starting relay to release a train from the station. That part of the system has been in and working for years. Now that starting relay will be controlled by this signal relay. Train leaves the station, runs over the guard circuit and pulls the relay, the next relay holds this one. This relay also cuts out the starting relay so that it cannot release another train until the next relay releases the first relay. Simple. Unlike weird transistors and IC circuits the mechanizations of which a LION can not understand, this is easily seen on a piece of paper. The other contacts on the relay controls the aspect of the signal. If this relay is pulled it is RED, if it is not pulled it is NOT RED, which sends a current to the next relay if that is pulled it sends back a YELLOW signal, if it is not pulled then it sends back a GREEN signal.
Simple so far, yes?
The train is automated, a timer pulls in the starting relay to release a train from the station. That part of the system has been in and working for years. Now that starting relay will be controlled by this signal relay. Train leaves the station, runs over the guard circuit and pulls the relay, the next relay holds this one. This relay also cuts out the starting relay so that it cannot release another train until the next relay releases the first relay.
Simple. Unlike weird transistors and IC circuits the mechanizations of which a LION can not understand, this is easily seen on a piece of paper. The other contacts on the relay controls the aspect of the signal. If this relay is pulled it is RED, if it is not pulled it is NOT RED, which sends a current to the next relay if that is pulled it sends back a YELLOW signal, if it is not pulled then it sends back a GREEN signal.
any chance you can post a diagram?
this sound interesting, but hard for me to visualize, regardless of the frugal components.
LION, keep on ROARing, and I'll keep WATCHing...
Sealed relays. Redundancy not required: Not a safety related relay on a 1:1 line.
LPPs do not have lawyers.
LION, . I had some experience back in the 70's maintaining electromechanical telephone exchanges (Step by Step). Back then we ran the worlds telephone systems on relays and capacitors with a little bit of help from 50V. The downside was they required continual maintenance even though they were in air conditioned and humidity controlled rooms. Contacts would require periodic cleaning and tensioning. Are you using sealed or open relays. If open, I would consider putting in some redundancy.
chutton01 So, "The LION'S Den" will be the new feature replacement for "History With Hediger", I guess? BTW, aren't nails kind of crap in terms of electrical conductance (or at least a rather mixed bag)? How about brass screws & nuts (kind of make your own terminal block) - those still have to be cheaper than terminal strips, which really aren't all that pricey to begin with (random example from Home Depot - Gardner Bender22-10 AWG 10-Circuit Terminal Block @ 8.47 each - you can do better, but that's the first one I found).
So, "The LION'S Den" will be the new feature replacement for "History With Hediger", I guess?
BTW, aren't nails kind of crap in terms of electrical conductance (or at least a rather mixed bag)? How about brass screws & nuts (kind of make your own terminal block) - those still have to be cheaper than terminal strips, which really aren't all that pricey to begin with (random example from Home Depot - Gardner Bender22-10 AWG 10-Circuit Terminal Block @ 8.47 each - you can do better, but that's the first one I found).
Nails? conduct electricity? Well LION has had no problem. Brass plated nails are better but more expensive. Well, given my requirements using those terminal strips would come to $408.00. (32 posts per station x 15 stations--- and that is just the signals circuits)
Nails it is. Besides, these are BINDING POSTS. Wires are soldered to wires, the posts just keep the whole thing from wandering around. Besides: It works, don't knock it!
chutton01How much current are you running over that Cat-5 anyway? According to Wiki, max per conductor is .57A per conductor (a little over 1/2 an Amp - they would make lousy power buses).
Nah... no power on these. Just pull a relay, light an LED or move a Tortoise. Well within specs.
Lion
I like how you have it done, even I understand it and thats something!
widetrack
BTW, aren't nails kind of crap in terms of electrical conductance (or at least a rather mixed bag)? How about brass screws & nuts (kind of make your own terminal block) - those still have to be cheaper than terminal strips, which really aren't all that pricey to begin with (random example from Home Depot - Gardner Bender22-10 AWG 10-Circuit Terminal Block @ 8.47 each - you can do better, but that's the first one I found).Looking at your board there, I dunno - unscrewing a loop of wire for repair, reconfiguration is a lot easier I find than desoldering.
How much current are you running over that Cat-5 anyway? According to Wiki, max per conductor is .57A per conductor (a little over 1/2 an Amp - they would make lousy power buses).
Joe Staten Island West
Posts marked "Signals" is where the signal is attached to the circuit. Red, Yellow, Green.
Down the track there is a pair of gaps about 2" apart. A wire bridges this two inch gap, A locomotive crossing the gap will apply track power to the 2" section, and this is called the GUARD circuit. LION does not know why he calls it the guard circuit other than it will guard the next station from a train leaving this station.
Anyway, that Guard circuit pulls the relay in, but of course it will fall out again unless there was something to hold the circuit closed. That something is the relay in the next block. That relay has not pulled in yet, because the train is here and not there. So that second relay will hold this first relay until the train reaches that second relay and releases this relay.
Like I said, EASY: no complications and NO EXPENSIVE circuits.
I would say Lion is very ingenious with his wiring methods, and it looks neat too!
All those timers, signals and guard/holds are way over my head. I am still trying to decide how to wire some sensor or something so I can know which staging track I am controlling on my lower level, without looking under the table.
Keep your progress posting, Aflyer likes it!
Aflyer
The LION has been spending time wiring on the railroad. You would think that a railroad as far along as that of the LION would already be wired, but no... --- Now the LION is installing signal automation to help control his subway trains.
Ah.... But where to put even more wires and how to keep them neat.
LOOK! There are no wires on the FASCIA Yet:
Well, it is not a finished fascia yet either. Maybe I can put wires there. The advantage is of course that the LION will not have to go under the table to run wires, and it is no fun to have your tail tangled into the wire bundles, or to have hot solder drip down on your nice fur.
So we mount the wires directly to this sub-fascia. Lion always intended to put a finished fascia over this one, so before I do that, let us put our wires here. The finished fascia can be held on a set of stand-offs with Velcro. Goes up quickly and can be opened for access to the wires. I wish I had thought of this sooner. And the fascia can enclose some of the subway tunnels, and still provide access to them if a train lays down on the railroad.
So here is what is happening:
There are 34 stations (platform edges) on this railroad, and each needs a detector and relays to make the signal system work. Each station has a circuit station like the one above. Those are cat-5 cables that string them together from one station to the other. There will be relays and other accouterments of automated analog operation. LIONS *like* circuits that go CLICK. He knows what they are doing and when.
LIONS use nails as binding posts and solders his wires to these. Terminal strips and other methods are far too expensive for a LION, and nails cost next to nothing. The papers have the binding posts marked as to what they do. The LION has a wiring diagram that matches with this so that he can wire the relays and other components correctly. Think of them as a poor man's circuit board.
If this interests you I'll be adding more pictures as the work progresses. If this does not interest you, I'll still be adding more pictures as the work progresses, but you do not need to look at it if you are not interested. And LIONS appreciate comments and discussions on his work.