Please help. My layout is DCC controlled by I do not plan to use DCC decoders to control my turnouts. I will control them separately via 12v DC and Tortoise machines. I use Walthers DCC-compatable turnouts, therefore my turnouts are not insulated from rail and the frog is insulated out of the box. I want to have a local control panel for each turnout. The control panel would include a toggle type switch to activate Tortoise and an LED indicating turnout position.
I have read up on previous threads and also searched for instructions. I found Circuitron Application Notes, Wiring for DCC tips, and the installation guide that came with the Tortoise and I am confused.
First is the suggested wiring from Allen Gartner's "Wiring for DCC" for Walthers DCC friendly turnouts (pic below)
It appears to show the tortoise would be wired to the frog and the point rails. So which terminals on the Tortoise go to which rail? Does terminal 4 go to the frog? Does 1 & 8 go to the stock rails and 2 & 3 go to the point rails?
Next is the suggested wiring from Circuitron AN-6000-2 when an LED signal is used. (pic below)
So with this example, I simply envision the control panel LED in lieu of the block signal shown. This diagram suggests wiring terminal 4 to the frog, and terminal 2&3 to the stock rails. Does this mean Tortoise will automatically detect position and turn on the appropriate LED? If I wire it this way, then where do terminal 1 & 8 get wired to, the stock rails on the other side of the frog? Is the only difference between this and the Wiring for DCC diagram the addition of 6 & 7 to the signal, in my case, local panel LED???
Next is the Circuitron AN-6000-7 when LED is used in series. (pic below)
This shows it wired to terminal 1 and 8 and terminals 2,3,4,5,6 is not used at all? Why are they not using the additional terminals on Tortoise. In this example, do I just wire to the stock rails or the DCC bus nearby? This is very similar to the instructions that came with Tortoise. Is this example strictly for bi-color LEDs? Will this set-up automatically detect throw position? What then can I use terminals 2,3,4,5,6 for?
If somebody can help clarify exactly how to wire it to achieve what I want, let me know. An "electrical wiring for dummies" version of diagram would help. What type of toggle switch for my local control panel do I get? DPDT ON-ON?
kidchoi wrote: Please help. My layout is DCC controlled by I do not plan to use DCC decoders to control my turnouts. I will control them separately via 12v DC and Tortoise machines. I use Walthers DCC-compatable turnouts, therefore my turnouts are not insulated from rail and the frog is insulated out of the box. I want to have a local control panel for each turnout. The control panel would include a toggle type switch to activate Tortoise and an LED indicating turnout position.I have read up on previous threads and also searched for instructions. I found Circuitron Application Notes, Wiring for DCC tips, and the installation guide that came with the Tortoise and I am confused.First is the suggested wiring from Allen Gartner's "Wiring for DCC" for Walthers DCC friendly turnouts (pic below)It appears to show the tortoise would be wired to the frog and the point rails. So which terminals on the Tortoise go to which rail? Does terminal 4 go to the frog? Does 1 & 8 go to the stock rails and 2 & 3 go to the point rails?Next is the suggested wiring from Circuitron AN-6000-2 when an LED signal is used. (pic below)So with this example, I simply envision the control panel LED in lieu of the block signal shown. This diagram suggests wiring terminal 4 to the frog, and terminal 2&3 to the stock rails. Does this mean Tortoise will automatically detect position and turn on the appropriate LED? If I wire it this way, then where do terminal 1 & 8 get wired to, the stock rails on the other side of the frog? Is the only difference between this and the Wiring for DCC diagram the addition of 6 & 7 to the signal, in my case, local panel LED???Next is the Circuitron AN-6000-7 when LED is used in series. (pic below)This shows it wired to terminal 1 and 8 and terminals 2,3,4,5,6 is not used at all? Why are they not using the additional terminals on Tortoise. In this example, do I just wire to the stock rails or the DCC bus nearby? This is very similar to the instructions that came with Tortoise. Is this example strictly for bi-color LEDs? Will this set-up automatically detect throw position? What then can I use terminals 2,3,4,5,6 for?If somebody can help clarify exactly how to wire it to achieve what I want, let me know. An "electrical wiring for dummies" version of diagram would help. What type of toggle switch for my local control panel do I get? DPDT ON-ON?
Allen's website shows how to do power the frog. The Circuitron drawing does not and shows how to wire LED indicators for the Tortoise to indicate the position. Since your turnouts are DC friendly, I wouldn't do any power routing. There are some here who swear by it. I've used all DCC friendly and Atlas turnouts and have never had to do frog powering. Some folks have had to for very short wheelbase locomotives and long turnouts (i.e #8, #10 etc.) Pins 1 and 8 are the coil leads and go to your control panel toggle switch.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
The 3rd diagram shows the LEDs wired in the control circuit for the Tortoise. This works well for indicator lights on your control panel. It requires little extra wiring.
The second diagram shows the signal lights contrlled by a switch in the Tortoise. This is good for lights that are near the switch, but would require 3 more wires if you used it for control panel lights. It does give you an option of powering extra signal heads for the same turnout,
Diagram 2 also shows wiring a frog. Terminal 4 to the frog and 2 and 3 to the stock rails. You have to check which stock rail. You may get away with not powering the frog -- depends on locos and speed -- but it can't hurt.
Diagram 1 is like diagram 2.
terminals 1 and 8 are for operating the Tortoise -- they don't output anything.
--David
kidchoi wrote: I want to have a local control panel for each turnout. The control panel would include a toggle type switch to activate Tortoise and an LED indicating turnout position.I am confused.If somebody can help clarify exactly how to wire it to achieve what I want, let me know. An "electrical wiring for dummies" version of diagram would help. What type of toggle switch for my local control panel do I get? DPDT ON-ON?
I am confused.
Pins 1 and 8 on the tortoise are for controlling the tortoise nothing more. They NEVER go to track power. If you put the LEDs in this circuit (as the last picture shows) they will indicate which position the tortoise is being told to be in. This will probably be sufficient for what you want, as 99.9% of the time the turnout will be in the position the electricity tells it to be in. This is the most simplistic way to provide indication at the panel.
If on the other hand you want to really know which position the tortoise is actually in, then just as you thought, follow the middle diagram replacing the signal with your panel LEDS. In this case, the indicator circuit is totally separate from the tortoise power. The tortoise power still goes to pins 1 and 8.
The first diagram is for powering the frog of the turnout. In that case 2 & 3 go to track power and #4 goes to the frog. Pins 1 and 8 DO NOT go to track power. They go to the turnout control circuit - whichever one you have chosen.
In other words think of it as three totally different circuits and it will be much easier to under stand.
Circuit #1 - turnout control pins 1 & 8.Circuit #2 - frog power pins 2, 3, & 4.Circuit #3 - signalling pins 5, 6, & 7.
Thanks people. Texas Zepher, that was an especially good explanation for me. I get it much better now. I know there is a lot of flexibility and I easily get confused mix/matching different diagrams. You are a huge help though.
Your comment "Circuit #3 - signaling pins 5, 6, 7". I think I am going to use Circuit #3 AN-6000-7 for LED on panel. However, if I decide to add a trackside signal in the future, then I would use pins 5, 6, 7?
Is 2,3,4,5,6,7 basically a DPDT switch?
Just remember, if you are going to use the internal circuit (terminals 2-4 & 5-7) you will need a resistor or you will burn up your LED. In addition this method requires 3 extra wires running from the Tortoise to the control panel.
On the other hand you can put your LED(s) on 1 and/or 8 with no extra wires running back and forth. If you wish to use two LEDs one would go on terminal 1 and the other on 8. If an LED doesn't light up reverse the leads, there is a long and a short one.
I prefer to use a bi-polar LED (red and green). It can be connected to either 1 or 8 and it is guaranteed to light up. The LED is then mounted on the control panel on the 'main', or non-diverging route of the track diagram. I set mine up to indicate green in that position and will change to red when the diverging route is selected. If it indicates the opposite when you install it, just reverse the leads on the LED.
The wiring for the Tortoise can be as simple or complicated as you want to make it.
Dennis
kidchoi wrote:Thanks people. Texas Zepher, that was an especially good explanation for me. I get it much better now. I know there is a lot of flexibility and I easily get confused mix/matching different diagrams. You are a huge help though.Your comment "Circuit #3 - signaling pins 5, 6, 7". I think I am going to use Circuit #3 AN-6000-7 for LED on panel. However, if I decide to add a trackside signal in the future, then I would use pins 5, 6, 7?Is 2,3,4,5,6,7 basically a DPDT switch?
Yes, exactly. Use contacts for simple trackside signals because real signals do nto both glow dimly and then brighten up when the turnout is thrown. LEDs in series witht he Tortoise motor power (pins 1 and 8) will glow dimly while the machine is moving and go to full brightness when it stalls at the end of the motion. Perfectly fine for panel lights but not really suited for signals. Pins 2-7 form a DPDT switch, although it is usally shown as two seperate SPDT switches. But they do operate together, since the contacts are all on the moving arm of the Tortoise. Usually draw as two SPDT because the common use is to use one to change frog polarity and the other to drive the signals.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi. I have wired my LEDs in reverse parallel off of contact 1 and the LED's work fine.
However, I really want to power the LED's off of the Tortoise aux. contacts. I want 2,3,4 for one dwarf lamp and 5,6,7 for the other.
Is power to the aux contacts coming from the Tortoise or ?
Can someone give me a dumb-down how-to on what I need to accomplish using the aux. contacts for the LED signals? I tried testing 2,3,4 on a working Tortoise the other night but couldn't get it to work. (I am an electonics total "noob")
AN-6000-07 diagram from circuitron shows both frog wiring and LED wiring. I tried to emulate the LED wiring but I used contacts 2,3,4. I didn't think that meant a difference.
I had the + contact of my green LED wired to 2, the + contact of my red LED wired to 3 and then the -ve contacts of both wired together and attached to 4.
Please help.
If you want to use both sets of contacts for LEDs, and none for frog power, then look at AN-6000-2, the second picture in the original poster's message. Instead of wires tot he frog, duplicate the setup shown on the right-hand side for the signal using 2,3, and 4. 4 is the common for that side, and the LEDs would connect to 2 and 3. You need a power source between the LED common (with a resistor) and terminal 4 or 5. If you have a 9-12 volt DC power supply, a 1K resistor is a good starting point.
I don;t want to complicate things for you, but red and green LEDs tend to be differnt brightnesses when the same resistor is used for both. If this doesn't bother you, ignore the following. If you want them to be more equal, instead of the one resistor shown, connect a slightly larger one to the red led and a slightly smaller one to the green led, and then connect the free ends of the resistors together and that becomes the common point for the power supply. Red LEDs are usually brighter than green LEDs so you use the larger resistor with the red and smaller with the green.
rrinker wrote: If you want to use both sets of contacts for LEDs, and none for frog power, then look at AN-6000-2, the second picture in the original poster's message. Instead of wires tot he frog, duplicate the setup shown on the right-hand side for the signal using 2,3, and 4. 4 is the common for that side, and the LEDs would connect to 2 and 3. You need a power source between the LED common (with a resistor) and terminal 4 or 5. If you have a 9-12 volt DC power supply, a 1K resistor is a good starting point. I don;t want to complicate things for you, but red and green LEDs tend to be differnt brightnesses when the same resistor is used for both. If this doesn't bother you, ignore the following. If you want them to be more equal, instead of the one resistor shown, connect a slightly larger one to the red led and a slightly smaller one to the green led, and then connect the free ends of the resistors together and that becomes the common point for the power supply. Red LEDs are usually brighter than green LEDs so you use the larger resistor with the red and smaller with the green. --Randy
Well, you learn something every day. I didn't realize that a power source was required to use the aux contacts. For some reason, I thought that the power that was coming through on contacts 1 or 8 would be used.
The power source for my tortoises are DS64's using a PS12 power supply. The DS64's simply require 2 wires hooked up and going to contacts 1 and 8 of each of the 4 tortoises that the DS64 can control.
I have no background or knowledge of electronics so adopting model trains as a hobby is certain to change that. So the right side of the second diagram above details the requirements for LED signals from the aux. port of the Tortoise. You're saying that a power source has to provide both +ve and -ve to the wiring on contacts 2,3,4 or 5,6,7 if I chose to do that? Any way of using the power to the Tortoise for LEDs other than the in-line reverse parallel method?
I would be wasting a lot of wiring, it seems. All of the tortoises have soldered connections for all contacts and these wires are screwed to a terminal strip. Wiring is also run for all connections from the terminal strip back to the area I am setting aside for a panel.
-Dave
Does
northern_blues wrote:Any way of using the power to the Tortoise for LEDs other than the in-line reverse parallel method?
The simple and obvious way requires using both sets of contacts as SPSTs (simple on and off switchs) one for each LED. Each LED would require its own current limiting resistor. This would use pins 4 and 3 to signal one direction, and pins 5 and 6 to signal the other (Alternately 4 and 2, and 5 and 7). The orientation of the diodes would have to be reverse of each other and depend on the polarity being applied to the tortoise and direction it throws at that polarity. Experimenting would be the quickest way to get them right, as unfortunately the tortoise directions don't say which contacts are closed when + is applied to the #1 pin.
The second way only uses one set of contacts. Pins 2 and 3 would each go to current limiting resistors. One resistor would be connected to the turnout power pin 1 and the other to turnout power pin 8. Both LEDs would have one side (the same side either + or -) going to pin 4. The other side of one LED would go to turnout power pin 1, and the other side of the other LED to to the opposite turnout power pin 8. Yes, this could also be better done with the two resistors in series with its corresponding LED, or it could be done with a single resistor (in series with the two LEDs on pin 4). BUT either of these scenarios would assume that the contact has a "center off" position where power cannot pass from pin 2 to 3 as the turnout moves from one to the other. I don't think one can make that assumption, because if this is not true then there would be a short circuit. The short circuit would cut power to the motor and hold the short "on". I've seen pictures where people have opened the tortoise and cut the traces to "fix" them and make certain they have this center off space, but that is a lot of work and resistors are cheap.
TZ and Randy, thanks!
I think the light is beginning to dawn. I appreciate the help for the noob.
How about this scenario? I have 12 tortoises, all contacts wire to terminal strips and wire run back to a panel area I plan on building. Again, all 8 wires from the terminal strips connect to another set of terminal strips at the panel area. The tortoises work fine, power supplied by DS64 Digitrax Stationary decoder. I could take a 12V DC powerpack and solder ONE resistor to the wire running from the +ve side of the powerpack. The wire would terminate in a strip that has all of the wires from contacts 2 and 3 from the Tortoises screwed to the strip. I could then have the -ve side of the powerpack running to a terminal strip that has all contact 4's from the Tortoises. At the Tortoise end of things, I would have the red and green LED's soldered to contact 2 and 3.
Is this a plan? I'm no expert so I may not have explained things well.
northern_blues wrote: Is this a plan? I'm no expert so I may not have explained things well.
northern_blues wrote: TZ and Randy, thanks!I think the light is beginning to dawn. I appreciate the help for the noob.How about this scenario? I have 12 tortoises, all contacts wire to terminal strips and wire run back to a panel area I plan on building. Again, all 8 wires from the terminal strips connect to another set of terminal strips at the panel area. The tortoises work fine, power supplied by DS64 Digitrax Stationary decoder. I could take a 12V DC powerpack and solder ONE resistor to the wire running from the +ve side of the powerpack. The wire would terminate in a strip that has all of the wires from contacts 2 and 3 from the Tortoises screwed to the strip. I could then have the -ve side of the powerpack running to a terminal strip that has all contact 4's from the Tortoises. At the Tortoise end of things, I would have the red and green LED's soldered to contact 2 and 3.Is this a plan? I'm no expert so I may not have explained things well. -Dave
You could use one resistor for 12 LEDs being lit at one time. Assuming 20ma for each LED and a 10V drop you'd be looking at a 40ohm 2.3W resistor. There is no such animal so I'd recommend 2 - 20ohm 2W resistors in series. The downside of this approach is that if you ever add or delete LEDs the value and power ratings of the resistor will need to change (since it powers the LEDs in parallel and the load will vary). Another issue is that if you ever have part of the load go away (i.e short, open, miswire etc..) you could burn out all of the remaining LEDs since the resistance would be too low limit the current to the remaining LEDs. Lastly, if you want to adjust the brightness of the LEDs you'll need to replace ther esistor with an appropriate value. For instance 20ma to each may be too bright. A better option would be a voltage regulator to supply the proper Vf for the LEDs (generally 1.5-3.0 volts) or a resistor for each LED. I have a similar configuration with 3 - DS64s and Tortoises and I power the LEDs in series with the Tortoise coil leads (pins 1 & 8). It is very simple and works fine for me. No resistors or additonal voltage regulating devices needed.
Jeff, thanks.
I believe I understood your post. I can handle the wiring of having the LED's in reverse parallel off contacts 1 and 8 and I don't need resistors. I just strung so much extra wire that I don't need, I think. I ran 4 pair cat-5 cable to each tortoise location.
So tell me, if I want to have LED's at a panel as well as the layout LEDs, do I simply have the panel LEDs also in reverse parallel but at the panel end of the wiring? I am also planning on SPDT switches as input to the DS64's so that I can change the turnouts either by panel switch or by DCC control.
northern_blues wrote: Jeff, thanks. I believe I understood your post. I can handle the wiring of having the LED's in reverse parallel off contacts 1 and 8 and I don't need resistors. I just strung so much extra wire that I don't need, I think. I ran 4 pair cat-5 cable to each tortoise location. So tell me, if I want to have LED's at a panel as well as the layout LEDs, do I simply have the panel LEDs also in reverse parallel but at the panel end of the wiring? I am also planning on SPDT switches as input to the DS64's so that I can change the turnouts either by panel switch or by DCC control.-Dave
The switches will go to the A inputs of the DS64s (assuming they are not momentary contact switches) and not to the LEDs. See page 10 of the manual. In your case the switch will replace the block detector. If you want to have two sets of LEDs (not sure why you would) just wire them in series. So you'd have the DS64 output, then the first set of Red/Green LEDs, then go to the next set of Red/Green LEDs and then to the Tortoise.
As for the wiring, I used all Cat5 cabling too. You can see how I built my control panels.
http://www.thebinks.com/trains/control_panels.html
I used 66 blocks to connect to the Tortoises than I run Cat5 cables to the control panel and use 1 pair for each Tortoise. So 3 Cat5 cables handles all 12 Tortoises but I still have all 4 pairs of the Tortoise pinouts available at the 66 block, should I ever need them. Here's a good picture:
The cables on the top go to the Tortoises and the four cables on the bottom go to the control panel.
No NO NO! DO NOT skimp and use 1 resistor at the power supply for all the LEDs runnign off the Tortoises.
What you get is a bunch of LEDs in parallel. At rest, some will be red, some will be green, depending on which direction each Tortoise is thrown. All well and good, there are X number of sets of indicators, thus X number of LEDs lit at any given time.
HOWEVER, the Tortoise contacts break before make - when the Tortoise is moving there is a period of time during the throw when NEITHER contact is closed and neither LED will be on. This reduces the total number of LEDs that are on, thus changing the total current draw meaning the resistor that was valid for 12 LEDs is too small for the remainign LEDs and can lead to too much current in the LEDs.
Can you get away with this? Probably. Maybe even for years. But resistors are at best 2 cents a piece in quantity (don't buy from Radio Shack, anyway most Radio Shacks don;t have them any more, of if they do they have like 5 values) so do it the right way and put one resistor per Tortoise. Effectively that means 1 resistor per LED, but since the Tortoise contacts physically prevent two LEDs connected to one Tortoise from being on at the same time, it is safe to use one resistor at the switch common (or LED common, it really doesn't matter) instead of one resistor per LED.
jbinkley60 wrote:You could use one resistor for 12 LEDs being lit at one time. Assuming 20ma for each LED and a 10V drop you'd be looking at a 40ohm 2.3W resistor. There is no such animal so I'd recommend 2 - 20ohm 2W resistors in series.
Edited for clarity, & added an ummm "I'm not flaming anyone especially the newbies" clause just in case the original seemed so.
Texas Zepher wrote: jbinkley60 wrote:You could use one resistor for 12 LEDs being lit at one time. Assuming 20ma for each LED and a 10V drop you'd be looking at a 40ohm 2.3W resistor. There is no such animal so I'd recommend 2 - 20ohm 2W resistors in series. Ee gads. I would never do it that way. I would use the normal 1K resistor and let the LEDs be starved for current. If they aren't bright enough then I would add another 1K in parallel (etc) to let more current through. Actually I would use one resistor per LED, but that gets back to one of my earlier posts, resistors are so cheap why does everyone worry about "saving" them. People won't stop to pick up a penny but they will skimp to save one on a resistor.
Yep, one per LED. Then if you add some, subtract some, some go bad, or whatever, all the others are unaffected. Cleaner and easier.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
If a single 1K is too much, don't jump right to a pair of parallel 1K's, that's only 500 ohms and if the LED lit but dimly with 1K, 500 ohms is probably too small. There are things called substitution boxes which allow you to test various resistences until you find the one that works, but the math really is pretty simple. See my post on the main board on LEDs with DCC decoders for some math examples.
This is a super thread, regarding Tortoise, and LED wiring. I am about to wire 3 tortoise machines, in conjunction with two separate switch panels, using LED's to signify the position of the turnout. I will not be using signals with the turnout operation, nor frog powering, and the above information has potentially saved me a lot of thought, and trial and error!
Jeremy