Layout room lighting?

[Anonymous]

My layout room is the bonus room in our house, which is located basically in the attic space above the garage. It's a finished room, complete with 8 electrical outlets, heating/ac and a 3 light ceiling fan. Problem is, the 'walls' actually are part of the ceiling, as they slant inward with the roofline. This creates a rather annoying visual problem on the layout, because the 3 light fixture casts horrible shadows when you're standing at the edge of the layout.
First question, what types of lights do you use to illuminate your layout? Since layouts can be located from basements and attics to finished rooms and purpose built structures, I know there's a ton of different lighting choices. What works and what's completely unrealistic as far as 'natural' light?

I'm thinking about using track lighting mounted near the top of the ceiling/walls to illuminate the layout and keep the main room light fixture turned off during operating sessions. How many lights should be used per linear foot of layout? In other words, 1 light every two feet, 1 light every four feet, etc. My layout is 20x18. The lights will be approximately 3-4 feet away from the surface of the layout with about a 30-45 degree angle toward the layout (for sake of argument, 0 degrees would be pointing straight down).

Next question is more for the 'electricians' on the forum. I want to install dimmer switches for each length of lighting track (two spans down each side of the room). I want to have the dimmer switches mounted to the facia of the layout. Since I have 8 outlets in the room, I've been thinking about powering the lights from one outlet on each side of the room. My plan is, use barrel nuts on the lower outlet wires to seal them off and prevent any shorts, then attach and run new wire from the upper outlet wires to the dimmer switch, and from the switch back up through the wall/ceiling to the track lights. I would replace the outlet cover with a blank cover to seal everything up. I'd like to do the installation myself, and avoid having to hire an electrician for the install.

Any other tips or suggestions? These angled 'ceiling walls' force the viewers perspective onto the layout which is a plus, but overall they are a real PITA trying to work with for the backdrops and lighting.

Thanks a bunch!

[pcarrell]

I might not build right against the walls, but instead move the layout out a bit towards the center of the room. This will enable you to place the lighting directly over the layout and thus, elimate shadows. It will also make putting up a believable backdrop MUCH easier.

For lighting on my layout I needed a cheap solution that was dimmable. I went out and bought clearence Christmas lights. I bought the lighted icicles that go on the outside of your house and rigged them to a dimmer. I then zip tied them above the layout (horizontally, so they don't hang down) and added a diffuser between the lights and the layout. I can now control the lighting intesity, even do dusk and dawn (I bought yellow and red bulbs and made some strings red, some yellow, and left others white, then rigged each color to a seperate dimmer), I just don't have it automated yet. I have to do it the old fashoned way. I also found that it helps the color balance if you leave the red and yellow on just a bit even when it's daylight (when the white lights fully are on).

I bought 10 boxes for $3.00 each right after Christmas a couple of years ago, so it's really pretty cheap. I just stock up on bulbs every Christmas. I think I might try some of those orange bulbs they have out at halloween next year.

Don't know if this is what you were looking for, but maybe it will at least spark ideas. [8D]

[Anonymous]

The problem with bringing the layout into the room more, and adding taller backdrops, is it severely cuts down on the layout space. The room floor space is 20x21, and I've already cut 3 feet off the sides because of the slanted walls. Right now, it'll have a 12" backdrop along the sides of the room (where the slanted walls are) and I'm planning to paint the walls sky blue with clouds, to help eliminate the 'closed in' feeling they create. On the other walls, the scenery will actually climb up into the corners, and I'll have taller backdrops. The center horizontal ceiling is only about 2' wide, and the slanted walls go down to apprx 1 1/2' vertical walls, if that helps give you more of a perspective. The only place to mount the track lighting will be along the top of the slanted walls where it meets the center ceiling section, to avoid hitting your head, or having too much heat from the lamps on the operators. Even if I got rid of the 4x8 peninsula I have right now, moving the layout in toward the center of the room really won't help the lighting situation much. Like I said in the earlier post, the slanted walls do help force the viewer's perspective onto the layout, rather than the walls. I think by painting the walls sky blue, and feathering in clouds and haze down into the layout, as well as have the buildings and scenery worked right up into the walls, it'll help the overall visual effect. At least... I hope. lol

[RichS1]

I for one have 4' and 8' flourscent strips and 75 watt reflector floods on my layout.
the 4' and 8' strips are behind a valance to direct the light onto the layout. My layout is a ops type not a scenery type......which means I have people who love to run trains and we do this every other thurs night.....
I needed a good light for everyone to see. the 75 watt is in the asles.

Sounds to me like you could do either strip, track, pigtail, of christmas string etc. just put it behind a valance

Is this going to be an OPS or Roundy, Roundy or Scenery layout????

Keep in mind that your can always add on if it is not enough.
Rich

[claycts]

The MAIN lights are tracks, low voltage 10 watt that are aimed at key elements. The mood lighting are rope lights built inot the upper facia. The ceiling is painted BLACK so there is zero light bounce. The walls below the backdrop is also black.
The addition of more lights is just add a track or 2.
BE CAREFUL of overloading the circuits in the area.
Take Care
George P.

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by OPS, Roundy, or Scenery? What the focus will be? My plan is to have two trains running on the double track mainline 75% of the time, while I'm doing switching in either of the five areas (yard, industrial, branchline, coal mine, rock quarry), the other 25% of the time will be moving trains from one of these areas to another area, and setting up new trains for the mainline. I've got a rather long hidden stretch of mainline, so the trains won't appear but about every 5-10 mins when running at about 35 mph (scale speed).

I think what you mean by Ops, Roundy, or Scenery, is what the focus will be, operation, running trains around in a circle, or super detailed scenic models. I'd like to have some nice scenery, but it won't be the entire focus of the layout. I do intend to have the mainline trains running constantly ('roundy') but the primary focus for me will be operations.

[pcarrell]

By the way, it hasn't been mentioned yet I don't think,....but what scale are you in? A 12" backdrop is not much for HO, but plenty for N.

Those rope lights that were mentioned earlier might help with your problem. Also, a regular string of Christmas lights might be a doable. Maybe a combination of both?

The thing that I think would probably be most important would be to keep the lights in front of the viewer, or at least directly overhead. That will help to eliminate the shadows.

Maybe a small valance even with the front edge of the table with some of the above mentioned lights and some homemade reflectors made of sheet metal behind them?

[Anonymous]

Several people have mentioned the rope lights... how much light do they really put out? I figured the amount of light would be so dim that it almost wouldn't be worthwhile. I'm modelling HO, btw, and I know the 12" backdrop doesn't seem like much, but it's really more for hiding the return loop of the mainline around the walls, than actually being a scenic backdrop. The areas where it'll even be significantly visible, will be in areas that the landscape rises up to meet the walls, all the other areas will be mostly hidden with trees and buildings.

If I decide to go with the track lighting, I plan to use 'flood' type lights, and they'll be mounted almost directly above the viewer/operators, so they won't cast any shadows at all. The shadows I'm having a hard time dealing with now are from the main light fixture/ceiling fan in the room, which is above and behind the operator, everwhere but the center peninsula. I need a source of light that's bright enough to completely illuminate the room and the layout during an operating session, without casting alot of shadows onto the layout itself. I've been thinking about having apprx 8 lights per track, with 2 on each side facing the peninsula (4 total facing the center peninsula, each set cancelling out any shadows created by the opposing ones), which will also serve to light much of the rest of the room. That way, the only shadows that would be over the layout would be caused by the lights on the far side of the room facing the peninsula, but with 6 other track lights lighting the layout, any shadows will be almost nonexistent.

At least, that's the plan. lol

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link Jerry, that does help! My local Lowe's has track and lights a little cheaper than that site, but the feature where you can design your own lighting system gives some good suggestions for what I'm thinking about.

Thanks!

[pcarrell]

How about swiching the bulbs in the big center light to lower wattage ones. I know that they make bulbs that fit a standard socket down to 7.5 watts. A couple of those would give you a soft glow in the walkways and the track lights or whatever would light the layout brightly.

I just thought of something. What about can lights like they use for stage lighting? You know, the ones with the little flaps on the front to guide where the light goes. That would elimidate the spillover on the top and bottom, while maximizing the side to side lighting. Use a bulb that covers a wide area, not like a flood, and you're in business.

[claycts]

Rope lights are great for MOOD LIGHTS, dusk or dawn. They are also good under the table to see enough mot to crack your head on the benchwork. Enough of them will give a nice GLOW to a room, nothing harsh.
Technical I string is the same as a 15 watt bulb.

[ham99]

I have 4-foot florescent tubes directly above the aisle, with 50-wat can lights centered above the layout every 3 feet. The can lights are all on a wall dimmer.

[pcarrell]

This might help get the creative juices flowing;

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/model/constructionNotes/lighting.html

This is from one of our own forum members. Check out his scenery clinic too. The link is on his home page.

[Anonymous]

The problem with the PAR cans (stage lighting) is that they're typically much bigger than standard residential track lighting, and they put out a god awful amount of heat. I want to keep the center room lights as flourescents (those new flourescent bulbs that screw in, and replace standard incandescent lights) for when I'm working on or under the layout (plenty of bright light). They would be turned off during an op session, and only the track lighting would be on. I took some measurements this morning. The standard track length is 4', so I'll do a 12' length of track on each side of the room, with about 7 lights total per track. 5 facing each side of the layout, and 2 facing in toward the peninsula.

My local Lowes has track for $10 a section, and lights for $10 each, so total we're looking at around $100 per side, or $200 total, not including wiring and the dimmer switches, but that's still alot less than I was expecting. I was thinking of starting off with full 12' tracks on each side, and since the lights are essentially 'plug and play' I can start with just a few lights on each side and add more as I go, up to my planned 7 per side. I'm planning to use the smallest round back lights they have, so that the operators won't be banging their heads into them, and the heat from the bulbs will still be far enough above not to cause a problem either. Plus I can run the ceiling fan to circulate the air if it does get too warm, since the room is air conditioned as well.

My main concern now is just exactly where I want to run the wires for the lights. I'm not sure how difficult it will be snaking wire through the ceiling, so if it turns out to be a pain, I may run the wire down the corner of the walls, where it will be least noticeable, and hide it with paint and scenery.

[Anonymous]

I figured out the wiring problem. I was sitting here trying to figure out how I would rewire two of the rooms outlets, when it dawned on me. I have a ceiling fan and light fixture that is currently powered by two separate wall mounted switches; one for the fan, one for the lights. I've seen people every day wire up ceiling fans and lights off one wall switch, using the pull chains on the fixture to control the fan and lights separately. Since it's already wired with two power feeds up through the ceiling, just hook up the fan and lights to run off one feed/one switch, replace the other switch with a dimmer, and use the second power feed to power the track lights. 12-14 50 watt lights, at 120v, is only about 5-6 amps, and I already have a 20 amp breaker on that rooms circuit, so that will work out great!

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate all the responses!

Jeremy

[Gaundyboss]

Jeremy,

I was reading thru your orginal question and responses. You got to my suggested answer mostly on your own. I recomend in addition to your solution would be to add two or more x-10 compatible dimmers to your set up. Place a surface mount (Wiremold) switch box next to the paddle fan wire the dimmers in this box even though it is on the ceiling and then run your feeds to the track lite tracks. You can feed each track with a seperate x-10 dimmer as well as the existing lighting fixture. (Pull power from the lighting side not the motor) (You could run parallel tracks for different lamp colors) On the wall where the existing on/off switch is replace this with a smartlink controller (see www.smarthome.com). (x-10 is line carrying tech that sends messages from transmitters to receivers over existing wiring.)

You than can control the lighting from multiple locations without adding more control lines. There are many controlers for X-10, small table top, wall mount and computer interfaces. This would allow the ability to control day/nite levels and even make a smooth transistion between the two over a period of time.

On the negative side the less expensive orginal x-10 dimmed and brightend in 16 steps and some find this objectionable. Suggest you purchase two plug in lamp dimmers and a table top mini controller from Radio Shack (Plug & Power) and experiment with the tech.

I use X-10 to control my household lighting and have used it when doing amateur theater productions in old building/churches to control house lighting, most are not set up for theater productions (Temporarily replace wall switches with x-10 dimmers and then control them from the effects board.)

Every element that you can effect - scenery, lights, movement (Other than train) and sound increase the illusion of a minature world that will draw your viewer in to the scene.

Dave Moore
(Gaundyboss)

[Anonymous]

I didn't even know that was possible! I'm going to definitely look into that! Thanks for the suggestion!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jshrade

The problem with the PAR cans (stage lighting) is that they're typically much bigger than standard residential track lighting, and they put out a god awful amount of heat.

This is true, but I was thinking more about the little ones they sell at places like Spencers in the mall (not that you'd get them there, just that this is what I meant. Maybe I wasn't clear about that.).

Guess it doesn't matter anyways, it looks like we're getting close to a solution.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Have a look at hminky's use of velum for those lights. This may help elimate some of those shadows. I'm using the reflector "bowls" and have this rangor effect. I will try the velum this weekend.

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/4x8/lighting/

[Anonymous]

I had a field day at Lowes on Monday. I bought all the materials for the track lighting. I bought two different types of bulbs, R20 Daylight Floods and R20 Standard Floods. I used the standard floods in the corners because they put out a slightly more intense light than the Daylight floods, and I needed the extra intensity to light all the way into the corners of the layout (there will be a rounded backdrop in the corners when the layout is finished). I used two more standard floods aimed onto the peninsula, at different angles, to light the entire table. The sides of the layout along the walls, I used the Daylight floods, and with the overlap from each light, it gives full light coverage over the entire layout, without being too intense and without looking unrealistic.

In case anybody's wondering, I used the Lazer by Halo track lighting available at Lowes. Total of 28 feet of track, 16 light fixtures, 10 R20 Daylight Flood bulbs, and 6 R20 standard flood bulbs, 2 elbow track connectors, two butt track connectors, 15 feet of 3 conductor interior wire, 1 bag of barrel twist on wire connectors, and 1 dimmer switch. Total cost, $350 including taxes.

My wife put me on spending restriction for the layout until February. lol I'm VERY happy with the results though, it's exactly what I wanted. I tried to do a very clean installation, and it adds a professional quality look the room. I'll try to get some pics tomorrow and post them here. Thanks for all the advice guys!

[Anonymous]

Jeremy,

sounds like my comment is too late, but I had a similar-sized room in my previous house and I did a combination. I used two pair of fluorescent 4-foot tubes for lighting while working on the layout, and track lighting for running / operations. The track lighting is great, but it DEVOURS electricity and, even in my basement room at the time, the heat was a problem for extended working sessions. You might want to consider a similar dual approach.

[Anonymous]

I've got the electric bill covered. :-D I work as a dispatcher for the EMC that we have our electric utilities with, and I'm on their budget billing plan. They reevaluate the usage once a year and adjust the billing amount, but even with 16 50watt lights (800 watts total), if I ran them 365 days a year for an hour each day, it would only raise my bill by about $20 a month. Considering even in my wildest dreams I couldn't possibly work on the layout or run an op session an hour every day, I doubt the electric usage will wind up being much of a factor for me.

I ran the lights for about an hour last night, and the heat wasn't even noticeable. It was almost 70 degrees here in GA last night, and I had the house fan running the whole time. I figure with the a/c on in the dead of summer, the lights, and the ceiling fan running, it'll still be within reason.

Plus, I've got 16 lights total.... my original plan was to do it all with 10-12, so if need be, I can always switch the type of bulbs I'm using from R20 to the PAR20 Floods, which (IIRC) put out more light than the R20's anyway, and take down 4-6 lights. The Daylight bulbs I'm using actually don't put out much heat at all except for the immediate area around the fixture. I'm using the smallest fixtures they had (only 4" diameter) and the lights are such low wattage and small size, the heat (so far) isn't a problem at all.

I really appreciate all the advice. I love coming to this forum, because I always know I can get well rounded and thoughtful advice from experienced modellers who've been where I'm at now, and love helping out a fellow railfan. :-) Thanks again guys!

[Anonymous]

I use flourecsent. [2c]