Making your own turnouts-Worth it?

[DigitalGriffin]

I noticed there seems to be some problem or another with every manufacturers turnouts. Atlas has the frog too high. Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts were out of spec. Peco has the switch spring which has to be removed for Tortoise motors.

Are building your own turnouts more realistic and realiable? Is it worth it?

I'm looking at #6 code 83 for the main and some code 70 for a yard.

[ClinchValleySD40]

No and no.

Atlas super switch (505 and 506) are my preferred #6 C83 switch.

[fwright]

You can hand lay your own turnouts. And generally they will be much more reliable (fewer derailments), look better, and cost considerably less than manufactured ones. If you lay them in place along with the adjoining track, your track will "flow" much better as well. There are detail parts such as different styles of tie plates and throw bars and almost exact scale spikes available from the Proto 87 shops. With these, your turnouts can be just as detailed a model as your better locomotives.

The cons: It takes me a full 2 hour evening session to build one in place, wire it, test and tune it, and set up the throw mechanism. And that's after the ties and ballast are in place from the night before. Your mileage may vary. Using jigs and building turnouts at the bench is considerably faster, but you lose the ability to make any configuration you like and the sense of flow. Laid in place turnouts do require good access - track within easy reach of bench work edge. Lastly, cork roadbed is not a good roadbed for spiking hand laid track. Homasote or Homabed appear to be the most preferred, with some using soft wood, and one I know of swears by Vinylbed.

Don't attempt to hand lay turnouts just to save money! Hand laying track has to be an aspect of model railroading you enjoy, or you may quit the hobby in frustration. To me, hand laying track is a relaxing evening - especially as compared to air brushing a model or trying to weather one. But there are plenty of folks who feel just the opposite. You have to take the time to lay track in gauge, file the pieces of rail just so, and check and adjust as you go. Once done, not only does it work great, but you have the pride of saying, "I built that." as your favorite locomotive smoothly sails through on real wood ties secured with tiny spikes you inserted.

If you've never tried hand laying track, try a simple stretch of track on a spur or two before trying your first turnout. It will give you a feel for what techniques, materials, and tools suit you before you are committed to a turnout.

yours in tracking
Fred Wright

[stokesda]

I currently use Atlas customline, and I guess it works OK for me (I've never used any other brand, so I don't have anything to compare it to).

A lot of people have been talking about the new Fast Tracks "handlaid" turnout system, which looks very interesting and not too difficult. You actually build it on a jig, not in place on the layout. It's at least worth checking out www.handlaidtrack.com

The up-front cost is kind of steep (especially if you need more than one size!), but I think if you have to build a lot of turnouts, it will be cheaper in the long run. If I had a little bit more money and a quite a few turnouts to build, I'd use this system in a heartbeat. Of course, you don't get the fancy details of the tie plates and spikes on every tie like you do with commercial turnouts, but I think it must be very rewarding to build a good, solid turnout by yourself.

[olequa]

I don't know why the Central Valley system is not discussed more here. Their tie strip system results in superb track and turnouts. Yes it is still plastic ties instead of wood, but the cast-in detail is excellent. All you have to do is glue the rail onto the ties to make the track. For the turnouts just glue on the stock rails and then either glue on their partially plastic frog or make your own. Use their switch points. It's easy enough, cheap enough and results in a superior, good looking finished product. Check it out at www.cvmw.com

george (and I don't work for them)

[Anonymous]

My vote is "no way". But as fwright points out, that's a personal preference more than anything. I don't handlay track or turnouts, because to me it's frustrating, annoying and doesn't "add" to my enjoyment of the hobby.

I do completely concur that it's not a cost decision. If you do it to save money you'll find that A) you don't save that much, B) especially if you consider the value of your time, and C) if you hate it, you hate it regardless.

If on the other hand it appeals to you as part of modeling, then do it for that reason, not to have a turnout that "cost" you $6.00 instead of $10.00...

[cmrproducts]

I only handlay turnouts when I can't find any other MFG's turnout that will work.

Like a Double Double curved turnout (almost like a 3 way) and a crossing on a curve (try that one for a fun and relaxing evening)!

The layout is a heavy OPs orientated layout so time NOT building turnouts is time I can spend working on the operations scheme!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[dacort]

I agree with what fwright said. I've handlaid most of the turnouts on my layout, except for older commercial ones that I re-used from a prior layout. I think especially if you have a small layout, handlaying can be a benefit, as you can built the turnouts on curves to save space to any radius you need. I do enjoy doing it, but cost is also a factor. I'd rather spend my hobby dollars elsewhere.

[tstage]

Well, we've run the gamut here between "no and no" and "no way, to give it a try and "superb". Sounds more like it has to do with personal preference, ability, and inclination.

I, myself, am intrigued with the thought of "giving it a try". If, like kchronister, you find handlaying frustrating, then by all means stick with prefabbed turnouts. Of what I've seen of handlayed track and turnouts, it looks much better than commercially available ones. Someday, I'd like to take my turn[out] at trying it.

Tom

[Janafam]

Fred Wright did a very good job of explaining pros and cons. If you enjoy hand laying track, turnouts are a natural. This is another aspect of the hobby. Many people either don't want to or have no time, that is why you see sectional and 3-foot lenths. Make your decision around what appeals to you in the hobby, don't frustrate yourself into doing nothing.

[fwright]

One more post to encourage the fence straddlers - then on to real model railroading instead of just chatting about it.

I started hand laying track because I was on a very severe budget ($5-10 per month in the mid '70s) for model railroading, and I wasn't happy with the appearance and cleaning of Atlas brass Code 100 - all that I knew and could afford then.

The nice thing about hand laying track is that the initial outlay to get started is quite modest. A package of ties, 2-3 three point gauges, a pack of rail, a package of small spikes, a piece of PC board, some glue, masking tape, ballast, and some stain complete the materials list and cost substantially less than most locomotives. The cost driver is the rail. Tools are a pair of needle nose pliers, an NMRA gauge, sand paper, scraps of wood (for a tie sanding boat and a piano jig for tie laying), soldering iron and solder, tin snips or fine saw, hack saw blade - most of which you probably have or will use for other tasks anyway.

So I built my frame (4x8 of course), thew some Homasote-like stuff on for roadbed, and drew lines where I wanted the track to go. Petrified that I had made a horrible mistake in spending money for a task that was way beyond my ability, I started laying track using Jack Work's April 1963 MR article for guidance. It was surprisingly easy and looked great to my eyes. Especially since the code 70 NS rail was painted and feeder attached, and ballast was put on before spiking the rail, when the rail was spiked the track was complete! And nothing derailed, much to my amazement! Believe me, hand laying track takes no more skill than getting your flex track smooth and good looking.

And don't belittle the pride factor. We are all proud when we finish detailing, painting, and tuning our favorite locmotive. It's that much better when it runs smooth as silk through track you built.

As I said, I'm much more scared of messing up an expensive model with a mis-handled airbru***han I am of having to handlay a complex piece of track.

If you are interested, try hand laying a spur in an easily accessible place. You may never go back.

yours in tracking once more
Fred Wright
jack of all trades...you know the rest
for
Picture Gorge and Western Railway - "None more picturesque!"
Tillamook Head and Bethel Railway - "To Heaven - and back!"

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

One more post to encourage the fence straddlers - then on to real model railroading instead of just chatting about it.

I started hand laying track because I was on a very severe budget ($5-10 per month in the mid '70s) for model railroading, and I wasn't happy with the appearance and cleaning of Atlas brass Code 100 - all that I knew and could afford then.

The nice thing about hand laying track is that the initial outlay to get started is quite modest. A package of ties, 2-3 three point gauges, a pack of rail, a package of small spikes, a piece of PC board, some glue, masking tape, ballast, and some stain complete the materials list and cost substantially less than most locomotives. The cost driver is the rail. Tools are a pair of needle nose pliers, an NMRA gauge, sand paper, scraps of wood (for a tie sanding boat and a piano jig for tie laying), soldering iron and solder, tin snips or fine saw, hack saw blade - most of which you probably have or will use for other tasks anyway.

So I built my frame (4x8 of course), thew some Homasote-like stuff on for roadbed, and drew lines where I wanted the track to go. Petrified that I had made a horrible mistake in spending money for a task that was way beyond my ability, I started laying track using Jack Work's April 1963 MR article for guidance. It was surprisingly easy and looked great to my eyes. Especially since the code 70 NS rail was painted and feeder attached, and ballast was put on before spiking the rail, when the rail was spiked the track was complete! And nothing derailed, much to my amazement! Believe me, hand laying track takes no more skill than getting your flex track smooth and good looking.

And don't belittle the pride factor. We are all proud when we finish detailing, painting, and tuning our favorite locmotive. It's that much better when it runs smooth as silk through track you built.

As I said, I'm much more scared of messing up an expensive model with a mis-handled airbru***han I am of having to handlay a complex piece of track.

If you are interested, try hand laying a spur in an easily accessible place. You may never go back.

yours in tracking once more
Fred Wright
jack of all trades...you know the rest
for
Picture Gorge and Western Railway - "None more picturesque!"
Tillamook Head and Bethel Railway - "To Heaven - and back!"

[#ditto] what he said..

Jeff

[Anonymous]

Hey Fred,

Do you use non-weathered rail, and paint it before you lay it?

I like the idea of pre-weathered rail, but then soldering is a hassle - have to grind off old stuff.

I see a couple options:

1) Non-weathered rail - paint it before laying track

2) Non weathered rail - weather it with "weathering solution" after laying track (will this mess up the ties?)

3) Weathered rail, then bright-boy or fine-sandpaper the weathered solution off the top of the rail (with possible risk of scratching up the railhead).

Thoughts?

(I'm determined to handlay - I'm ready to invest in the skill of it - will likely take several "turnout dioramas" before I'm ready to start the layout).

Thanks for your advice and encouragment!

[fwright]

When I started there was no weathered rail. I painted the rail before laying with some Testor's enamel rust color and a small brush. After an hour or two, before the paint set up hard, I wiped one corner of the railhead with a rag dampened with thinner. In the area of points, frogs, and guard rails, I didn't paint the rail until afterwards - using the same small brush and enamel. I didn't deliberately paint the underside of the rail, but I didn't worry about any being slopped over, either. If you like the color of the weathered rail, by all means use it. If not, mix your own and paint away. I might tend towards unweathered rail for turnout construction anyway because of the hassle of cleaning it in the areas where it needs to be soldered.

I apply ballast either at the same time as gluing ties or separately before putting rail down. In the past, I used diluted white glue (50:50) with alcohol and water for ties and ballast. I believe I will try matte medium in the future to see if I like it better. After ballast is done, (I think this is critical) I sand the the tops of the ties to ensure a smooth surface for the rail. By sanding the ties, I eliminate any irregularities in the roadbed or tie thickness, giving myself an extra edge in smooth trackwork. I used redwood ties, which I left natural, but this would be the point to restain the tops of the ties.

Since I model a 1900 short line, I don't use tie plates. And I am looking at techniques others have used (grape vine) to get rough cut ties in the future.

I soldered a feeder to every piece of rail since I don't use rail joiners. Before soldering, I always clean the rail in the area to be soldered with fine sand paper or my preferred emery cloth. I soldered 12 inch lengths of 24 gauge magnet wire to the underside which were later attached to larger gauge block feeders or common rail bus. The drawback to not using rail joners is getting smooth curves at the rail joints on curved track. This was time and spike consuming. I am investing in a rail bender to pre-bend the rails for curved track in the future. I plan to cut back the last inch or so of rail that the bender does not reach. I may also try butt soldering the curved rail joints, but don't expect that that alone would work.

My only other tip is don't use twin coil switch machines. I cringed when I saw the points of my handlaid turnout being jerked from one side to the other even though I didn't see any damage. Use a slow motion machine or manual throw and adjust the throw so it doesn't put too much pressure on the points.

Most of all, relax and have fun!

yours in track laying
Fred

[Adelie]

Fred, I think you've summed it up.

I hope everyone realizes threads like this have no simple answer. For those who enjoy handlaying rail or want the results it provides, it is worth it. For others who enjoy other aspects of the hobby more than tracklaying, it is not.

I fall into the latter category. But I fully appreciate the effort and look of handlaid rail. A friend of mine handlaid all his rail, including turnouts, and the results were both smooth and great looking. This guy is no craftsman by any stretch. It was just something he decided he wanted to do. He told me he got to the point he could build an HO turnout in about an hour by the time he was finished. He is proud of his work, and he should be.

While it is not my cup of tea (I say, having a drink of coffee), my hat's off to those who do this.

[SpaceMouse]

If you were not going to use a jig, ala Fred, what would you need to get started?

[dieselfan04]

At some point you have to decide if handlaying is for you. Do you have the patience and ability as well as the time? I can lay a piece of flex track in a few minutes. I handlayed my layout and it took about 10 times longer than prefab. But the joy it gives me when I tell someone I started with that one piece of rail. In the end do they really appreciate what I am telling them? The good thing about model railroading is the choice is yours.

[Anonymous]

Chip,

This post will not be linear in thought, but rather, some food for thought on some philosophies of handlaying turnouts...

I have been intrigued with handlaid track since day one of model railroading. So far I've only handlaid a short straight section, and one turnout. I'm now confident it's not too difficult.

I'm going to be starting a small test-bed layout (sort of timesaver-ish) with lots of turnouts to get some good practice in.

Here are some MR back issues I'd recommend getting your hands on:

1989, September - Michael Tylick demonstrates spiking turnouts
1989, December - Tony Koester shows how to make turnouts
1998, September - Handlaying N scale Code 40 turnouts (PC soldering approach)

The Michael Tylick article isn't as in-depth (it's more of a sidebar for a project module layout), but I'm personally more "in-tune" with his methods - just an opinion, there are many variations on turnout construction.

Honorable mention (worth reading for background and variations in approach if you're already back-issue shopping - these are not dedicated articles, but are sidebars on project layouts)
2004, January - Handlaying track on Roque Bluffs - Iian Rice
2004, February - Handlaying turnouts on Roque Bluffs - Iian Rice
April and May 1991 - Handlaying track & turnouts on an On3 "timesaver" layout


As you'll discover in your turnout construction research, there are MANY subtelties as to how to build them.

Something I'm now a firm believer in is making the frog as sharp as possible (This is also mentioned on the Fast Tracks website).

Theoretically speaking, with proper NMRA specs used (i.e. checking clearances, min, max dimensions with an NMRA track gauge), you should not experience any wheel drop in the frog gap if your frog is long and sharp.

DO NOT remove any material from the flange side of the frog point railhead. Tony Koester recommnds doing this - but it is a bad idea. This only introduces wheel drop - which he remedies by filling up the frog with solder.

I think I'll be filling up the frogs with solder - not to prevent wheel drop, but to make the frog one solid mechanical and electrical piece.

Michael Tylick has a cool method for making turnout templates - he pins down one end of a piece of flextrack with a few pushpins, covers the track with a large piece of paper, and rubs a pencil over it. With the paper also pinned in place so it doesn't move, he then bends the flextrack underneath, and rubs the new shape onto the paper also - creating a very nice turnout template.

This way, the frog and points assembly could be built using this template - on the workbench.

I've seen several sources (including Michael Tylick's article, as well as on the BK enterprises website) claim that you should lay the frogs first.

Again, there are many different techniques. I'd have to say the nicest looking turnouts I've seen are on the fasttracks website.

With my goal being to spend as little as possible on turnouts (I like to consider track a do-it-yourself semi-disposable item), I am determined to build them "old-school-style", with a pair of pliers and a file or two.

Again - there are many variations:

-turnouts built on the workbench then transfered to the layout
-turnouts built in-place on the layout (my personal preference)

-soldering to PC ties
-spikes (my personal preference)

-pre-weathered rail (Tony Koester uses this - soldering seems like it could be a nightmare - I tried scraping some pre-weather stuff off the tops of rails to make them shiny last night - no can due. Those rails are pre-weathered forever. That concept just got the axe for me.)
-un-weathered rail (my personal preference)

-ballasting before laying rail (my personal preference)
-ballasting after laying rail

-stock railhead notched to accept points
-stock railhead not notched to accept points (my personal preference- made one with the notch, worked well, but didn't like the look of it).

-dead frogs
-powered frogs (my personal preference)

-frog points soldered to wing rails - flangeway cleared with hacksaw (my personal preference - I think - makes a one-piece frog/point assembly that can be built on the workbench)
-frog points not soldered to wing rails

-frogs connected to switch points
-frogs not connected to switch points with switch points connected via small wire or piece of PC tie to stock rails (a.k.a. "DCC Friendly"). (my personal preference)

-Throw bar soldered to switch points
-Throw bar made out of two pieces of styrene. (my personal preference - I think!)

Now this sounds like a lot of options, and a hassle to choose - but in effect, when buying an off-the-shelf turnout, someone else is just deciding all of these options for you, or you have to modify them to meet your preferred methods.

I personally really like the look of rail that's been handlaid after the tracks have been ballasted. Why? Because then you have ZERO ballast above the ties. Now that is a clean look!

[espee3004]

I use a piece of shim brass under the frog. Just use enough solder to hold everything together. Only clean the base of the rail where I solder. Have not cleaned weathering off the railhead and have no pickup problems whatsoever.

[tomikawaTT]

One area where hand-laid turnouts win hands-down is in complex yard and junction situations, partly because of the space saving but mainly because, in many cases, commercially available pre-builts simply don't fit.

My personal method for assembling a turnout flies in the face of, "lay the frog first." I lay the stock rails first, then assemble the frog point, wing rails and finally points. Like the prototype, I do NOT notch the stock rails, but rather undercut the points so they ride up on the stock rail bases. Wherever possible, I prefer to use full-length (36 inch or one meter) rails, placing electrical gaps where necessary and otherwise minimizing joints. It is entirely possible for a single length of rail to play 'stock rail' to several turnouts and then end up at the point of a frog.

As for points, mine are electrically isolated from everything! I like prototypically close point spacing and most of my rolling stock has metal wheels, so the 'dead' open point eliminates any possibility of a short circuit. The wiping action of riding up on the stock rail base seems to provide excellent electrical continuity when the point is closed. (My short-wheelbase MU cars would tell me if it didn't!) Power to the frog is routed through the throw mechanism, either contacts on remote machines or by using electrical switches in conjunction with manual throws.

The only precautions I take when assembling turnouts are: 1. Work with an NMRA track gauge in one hand, and gauge everything. 2. Test run with your most derailment-prone rolling stock immediately after assembly. (I have a couple of ancient cars with sharp-flanged wheels that I keep specifically for the purpose.) 3. If it isn't perfect, adjust it until it is. If necessary, pull he whole thing out and start over. (This may be necessary early on, but skill improves rapidly. After forty years of rolling my own, I very seldom even have to tweak point closure.)