Design the Perfect Layout for This Room

[Anonymous]

I am trying to layout an N scale plan for the room shown here:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/christopherhutchinson/abo

, but I am absolutely coming up blank on deciding what is best for this room. This will be my forth layout now, but I had to disassemble my last one after the big D word happened.

Anyway, I am looking to incorporate the following:
1. A yard (could be on a second level)
2. Long runs to show off some long trains
3. Large radi to accomodate the newer Kato locomotive power
4. A tree covered mountain / hillside
5. At least one impressive bridge
6. Some disappearing track would be nice
7. I would like to be able to access all areas of the layout to work on scenery

I will happily pay someone to help me with this. I work better from a plan, I am not a designer by any means. I just need some help getting the plan together.

Here are some photos of my last project that was ended by the big D word:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/christopherhutchinson

Let me know if you can help, or have any thoughts.

[Anonymous]

I would go on the inter-net,, there are countless sites to help you with your planning along with books out the ying yang on the same subject..I had a small N-scale that I used to raise up with rope and pullies when I was done "playing". You can do it!

[Anonymous]

You should be able to do a ton of stuff with that room in N scale. I used XTrkCad to design mine in HO. It takes a little getting used to as far as using, but I really like the results. It took me about 4 weeks to come up with a layout plan I liked. That was a couple of hours a day, every day, and almost all day on the weekends. Now I just have to build it.

My point is, I am no designer, but I drew up some ideas and posted them up here on this forum for feedback ( I need to post up the latest ones sometime ), and these guys helped out alot. Other people can see what you cannot. I think you should take a stab at designing a layout before giving up and paying somebody to help. You already have the basic idea of what you want, put it on paper.

Your last layout was real nice, did you design that one?

Seriously, I think you should give it a shot first. I'm not yelling or anything like that, just know that you will get support when you need it, and encouragement (thats what this is :) )

[pcarrell]

Just some thoughts. It looks to me that if you want a walk-in plan with no duck unders, and both doors have to be usable, then you are limited to mostly the top and left sides of the room in the picture. The area between the doors could be a workbench area or storage, or just open.

If you can do a duckunder then you would gain a lot of area by building between those doors. If it were me and I was doing the duck under, I'd put the duck on the right side, only because it creates more drama as you enter the room on the left.

If you could just close off one of those doors perminately I'd close the left door because you could put a larger curve in that area then you could in that tight little area on the other side. If you had to do it the other way around, and close the right door, you might think about that box area the door is in as a good place for LARGE scenery, like a big vally with a large curved trestle going through it. The scenery could be quite grand with soaring mountains and plunging valley's. All boxed in like that you could light it like a stage.

Just some thoughts I had.......

[Big_Boy_4005]

[#welcome] to the forum. That's a nice space for an N scale empire.

I envision an "L" shape along the long wall on the left, and the wall on the top. I wouldn't mess with the little wall between the doors, just keep it open for walkway, even if you don't go into the attic much. You might be able to tuck some industries back there on a small shelf.

I say skip the computer for planning, and stick to paper and pencil. Even with the computer you will be providing all of the brain power for your design, it just draws pretty.

Start with a benchwork design to maximize your space use. Leave room for curves and aisles. Draw a basic mainline, play with variations. Helix? Nolix? Both possible in that space in N. Try a small peninsula sticking out from the wall as an option, it could hold a helix, but it might be a better mountain, with the lower level following a river, and the upper flying over on bridges and trestles.

Look at a lot of layouts, but design it yourself. We can coach you.[8D]

Show me an empty space, and I see a train layout.[swg]

[Anonymous]

I suggest a helix on the bottom left of the room and then in the top right a long downgrade with a 180 degree curve into the bottom level. The back side of the will be hard or impossble to access but, if you just have straight and hidden track maybe you can access it from underneath. Maybe have your large bridge on this curve? Place the yard on the bottom level at the exit of the helix. Everything else you want should work itself out.

[Anonymous]

The room sure does cry out for a through the Rockies L shaped layout. I'd put a yard and industry by both doors. For the main line I'd go three times around with L girder for the framework. Bridges, tunnels and long grades all over the place.

[Anonymous]

You guys are inspiring! I will get the pencils out and start doing some sketching. I will post a few sketchs when I get one I like.

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
If you could just close off one of those doors perminately I'd close the left door because you could put a larger curve in that area then you could in that tight little area on the other side.

Pcarrell, if you close that door, how to you get into the room ? That door is the only access to the room.

QUOTE: If you had to do it the other way around, and close the right door, you might think about that box area the door is in as a good place for LARGE scenery, like a big vally with a large curved trestle going through it. The scenery could be quite grand with soaring mountains and plunging valley's. All boxed in like that you could light it like a stage.

Closing the door on the right means eliminating access to the attic — not so sure that would be legal, and definintely inconvenient if the attic is used for storage.

---

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005
I envision an "L" shape along the long wall on the left, and the wall on the top. I wouldn't mess with the little wall between the doors, just keep it open for walkway, even if you don't go into the attic much. You might be able to tuck some industries back there on a small shelf.

Considering the lower part of the room is over 6 feet wide, shelves up to 24" deep are possible on both sides (leaving about a 24" aisle). The only challenge with having the layout on both sides of the room is how to get the trains across the aisle — duck-under; removable bridge; or swing-away bridge ?

QUOTE: I say skip the computer for planning, and stick to paper and pencil. Even with the computer you will be providing all of the brain power for your design, it just draws pretty.

While it is true that the inspiration comes from your mind; the advantages of using a computer to help design a layout are:

it can be done to scale;

track and scenery elements can be easily manipulated;

the design can be viewed in 3-D (great if you're working with multiple levels and/or elevations); and

the design can be tested prior to spending any time building.

QUOTE: Start with a benchwork design to maximize your space use. Leave room for curves and aisles.

I think a better approach would be to design benchwork after you've figured out where your tracks are going.

I would take your room's floorplan (drawn to scale), and draw a series of lines parallel to and about 24" from all the walls. These lines will indicate the maximum depth your benchwork will have. Then start designing your tracks to fit inside those guidelines. You can widen (up to 30" deep) or narrow your benchwork provided you maintain adequate aisle width (minimum 24").

The design of your benchwork can then be determined following the contours of your layout.

QUOTE: Draw a basic mainline, play with variations. Helix? Nolix? Both possible in that space in N. Try a small peninsula sticking out from the wall as an option, it could hold a helix, but it might be a better mountain.

I agree. Any peninsulae would make for great scenery options. While using a peninsula for a helix would mean being able to access the helix from more than one side, it would also mean breaking up that great 15+ foot long wall (along the left side of the room).

If you go for more than one level, I offer two suggestions ...

a helix. I would locate the helix in the upper right corner. You can fit a helix with up to a 25" radius here easily. (Go with the largest radius you can fit.) A 25" radius helix with a 2% grade results in a 3.14" change in elevation per turn. Tight; but do-able with the right helix design. A 2½-turn helix would get you to a lower-level staging area (about 7.85" below the upper level).

a ramp. This will require a very long ramp to get the headroom needed not just for the tracks and rolling stock; but for the benchwork supporting the upper level. In N-scale, you should have at least 6" clearance so you can reach your hand in over the trains (requiring a ramp of 300" or 25ft). You'll need a lot more than that if you plan to scenick the area (at least 12 to 15").

[rolleiman]

I have to agree that I wouldn't break up that 15 foot wall with a helix.. Especially when one of your givens is that you'd like long sweeping runs to 'show off the trains'. Unless you are going true multilevel, they are a waste of space (in my view).. Although it would give you opertunity to build that large tree covered mountain.. I don't know if anyone has suggested you install one but I would stay away from any kind of lift-out or duck-under access across your main room entrance.. Before I go much further, How important is Ready access to that attic door to you?? In other words, if you had to lift out a section to get to it, would that be workable for you??

While a computer Can be useful in designing a track plan, it isn't critical.. You've drawn them before on pencil(s)/paper and it looks like you did a pretty fair job.. What the computer Can do for you, is make it easy to adjust things and give you an acurate scaled working plan (pencils and rulers can do the same thing). There are pros and cons of both design tools (computer vs pencil/paper)..

It appears that you have the skill of benchwork tackled.. Why the change?? I think I know what the D word is but (since I've never been married), I'm not certain..

Jeff

[pcarrell]

I wasn't sure where either of the doors went or if they both had to be usable so I was just covering all the bases, thats all. I didn't know if maybe one was to a closet or accessed some part of the house that could be accessed in another way.

I once lived in a house where there was one room that had three doors in it, and two of them went to the same hallway! [:p]

[Anonymous]

The only reason the attic door would ever be used is to access the hot water heater if the pilot goes out.

I think it is important to me personally to incorporate a helix just for challenge. I really want to build one....benchwork is my strong suit... and I want either a second level or an elevated track to add that third dimension to the layout. I think chateauricher was right that it should be in the upper right corner possible. At this point it would seem that an around the wall layout would be feasible here with a turnaround at the lower left and mid to lower right.

This discussion is really helping me. I read a new book tonight....Model Railroad Benchwork and it has me so motivated to start building again... I can't wait, but no real rush, I just like building benchwork. I learned so much from this book.

Yes. The D word meant divorce. I am finally settled in new house now. Just not as big as I would like. The next house will have a 30 x 30 train room I hope. But for now, this is a nice progression to the dream layout.

[rolleiman]

If you are going to build a helix (not that much trouble, just a lot of cut and fit to make the circles unless you want to waste a lot of wood cutting full circles), be sure to build it big enough so that you can get inside of it to maintain the track and and retrieve the derailed or stalled trains. Of course, Nothing says a Helix has to be a Circle, it could also be an Oval.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Anonymous]

Here is a link to a photo with a rough trackage area denoted in blue around the room. The aisle is a 27" passage.

The 24" radius in the top right would be the location of the helix which would provide a turnaround as well as elevated track access in my thoughts. It would be cool to get the yard to fit south of the helix in the right of the room, but I don't think a 'bent' yard would work.... What are your thoughts?

http://www.railimages.com/albums/christopherhutchinson/abp.jpg

[rolleiman]

Are you sure you want to crawl under your layout to get to your work bench?? That's what it looks like you've set up for yourself..

For the yard, Bent radius will probably work fine for you as your couplers are likely truck mounted.. Or at least last time I looked at any N scale stock they were. I would keep the curves wide though for appearance and clearance sake.. Track spacing may become an issue with longer cars so watch out for that too.. Not saying it's the best solution for a yard, but it can definately work.

Jeff

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jeff's right about the workbench. At least for me, it would get very old, very fast, crawling in there. An alternative would be to move the workbench to that spot on the short wall by the entry door, and take the old workbench space for layout. If you did your height correctly, you could still have a small shelf extension over the workbench.

The yard on a curve is not the best for functionality. Do whatever you can to get it straight.

Personally, I would put the helix in the opposite corner by the door. It breaks things up more where you have it drawn. The long wall isn't THAT long, and you were going to have a big curve in that corner anyway.

[pcarrell]

A bent yard can work, and even be quite pleasing to look at. Just make sure that all uncoupling magnets are on straight track, otherwise they don't work so well.

[Anonymous]

A fire marshal or your home insurance inspector might force you to have a 24-inch wide walkway to that water heater. I’d hate to see you build bench work then have to rip it out.

You need to plan how you are going to operate your railroad. Is it a bridge route or an originator of loaded ore cars or whatever. This will help you select a track plan.

[pcarrell]

You could do a drop down leaf between the doors. That would eliminate all access problems and duck unders all in one fell swoop. The only real drawback to that is that you have to limit the scenery somewhat.

[Anonymous]

You guys are making some good points. Let me turn out a revision and I will post later.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lee678

A fire marshal or your home insurance inspector might force you to have a 24-inch wide walkway to that water heater. I’d hate to see you build bench work then have to rip it out.

You need to plan how you are going to operate your railroad. Is it a bridge route or an originator of loaded ore cars or whatever. This will help you select a track plan.

From a building code and fire prespective, the space requirement is immeadiately adjacent to the actual unit. You need to be able to get at it for servicing and maintain something like 2 feet of clearance in the front. Local codes may vary.

Being from Minnesota, an attic seems like an odd place to have a water heater. It certainly would be wise to build in such a way that if the water heater needed to be replaced, the old one could get out and the new one in.

[Anonymous]

I have used your comments to produce another room layout for the benchwork. I am really starting to like this one. Note the two lift out sections which could be used for a walkway. I think this is getting better

Here is the AutoCad drawing (picture):
http://www.railimages.com/albums/christopherhutchinson/abr.jpg

Note:
1. The 24" radius helix
2. The complete loop around the room
3. The yard to the middle right
4. The final turn (9" deep) to the right of the entrance door will accomodate a 20" radius I believe for the main line.

My thoughts are to build a roll around work surface 20 inches wide that will roll under the layout when not in use. I would like it low enough so I can sit down to solder etc.

What do you guys think? I should be able to incorporate two levels here. I am eager to read your comments, but I am not above modifying what is shown here. Let me have it!

I printed this out on the plotter yesterday at 1" = 1' scale and it looked like it would accomodate a nice layout.

[pcarrell]

This looks like it might work a bit better. It gives you more options on running possibilities. I just hope your carpentry skills are up to it. Thats a good number of fancy cuts built into that benchwork.

First thought, you might want to think about those "lift out" sections though. Lift outs are OK, but there is a higher risk of damage to the section if it's not attatched on one side to the actual layout, making it more of a "drop leaf" rather then a "lift out". If you don't see damage as a problem then maybe this is a moot point. Scenically speaking, the two approaches differ. With a drop leaf it is "usually" better to have low, simple scenery (like a few bushes and some grass and not a lot more). This way it doesn't get knocked off as you walk by. With a lift out this is not so much an issue. You are removing the section completely, so you really only need someplace to grab it, and then someplace to store it (a specially built cart on wheels that can roll under the layout works very well for this).

One more thing on this subject. If you want more then one deck, you need to put some thought into how you are going to handel those lift out / drop leaf sections. Are you going to make both top and bottom lift outs? Are you going to make both drop leafs, and if that is the case, will the top one foul the bottom one when it's open? Or are you going to do both, like a lift out on top and a drop leaf on the bottom? Lastly, maybe you just skip the whole thing and just build everywhere you can get to on the top and not need a lift out / drop leaf?

Now , just a curiosity question here. Whats with the 1' 5 3/4" space in the upper right of the room? Is there some reason that I missed as to why that is there?

Food for thought. I don't know about you but I have not stopped growing as I got older, I just quit growing up. I grew in "other" dimentions. Those two foot walkways will work, but they would be much more comfortable with a few more inches. I know, that means giving up valuable real estate. Thats why I stated this as "food for thought". Its not absolutely necessary, but it might make things a little easier to live with, thats all. Once you build it, thats not the time to explore revisions, ya know?

Finally, let me say that this plan looks like a BIG leap forward from your last, but don't be dismayed if you end up with a couple of more redesigns. I went through about a half a dozen before I said to myself, "This will work". What you have here looks very good.

[Anonymous]

Looks pretty good. I knew once you got started, you would enjoy this part of the process. Sometimes we just need a little nudge.

What era are we talking anyway. Based on your sig avatar, you like NS, like me, so I am assuming modern (like me).

Glenn

[Anonymous]

Yes, a modern era railroad works best for me. I love the current era Kato locomotives. CSX is my local rail carrier, but I get to see a NS every now and then! It sure is exciting to see one in town.

Pcarrell, you are right, I need to give more thought to the lift out sections. Maybe a hinged drop down would work better.... I will give it some thought.

[pcarrell]

Since it is a "movable" piece of trackwork, some extra though would be time well spent.

I really think you are on your way to a really fine plan!

[chateauricher]

A few suggestions/comments...

• To increase clearance around the attic door, can you change it to a bi-fold or accordian door ? This would reduce the space the door needs to open and allow you more space for the layout in that area.


• If you do go with 2 decks, the walk-throughs will become a challenge. As stated earlier by someone else, lift-outs are subject to damage. Drop-downs are great for a single-deck layout; but are not so great for multi-deck layouts if they are stacked one directly above the other. To get around this, you can off-set them so that the upper one is not directly above the lower one. Or, alternatively, you use a swing-away. This can work for single- or multi-deck layouts and is not that much more difficult to build than a drop-down. (I refer you to my plans; just click on the link in my signature.)


• Your helix can be tucked tight into the corner. You can access tracks from the centre of the helix, so you don't need to have the space you left in the corner. By doing so, you also make it less of a focal point.


• Be careful with the depth of your benchwork in the corner near the room entrance. It looks like it is 36" deep — a bit of a stretch if you need to reach into that corner. I know you have it that deep so that you can connect to the shelf on the opposite wall. However, if you put that walk-through at an angle (about 45°) you can still allow for the door to swing open while making better use of the space. It would also eliminate the need for a "sharp" 90° turn (from the shelf to the corner).


• That area near the attic door would make for some good staging. The staging tracks might not be long; but at N-scale, you could fit 8 to 9 tracks in that area.

[Anonymous]

Will you guys take a look at my XTrkCad layout and tell me what you think. I don' t have sidings or yards placed yet, just the mainline(s). Thanks

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/christopherhutchinson/abs

[Big_Boy_4005]

Pretty cool, nice start.