Can't Things Ever Go Right?

[HAZMAT9]

I've been gauging my track and switches and so far found them to be acceptable. I found out that most of my problems were with switches being partially opened which caused my locos to either derail or shake when traveling through. So I thought great, let's get brave and pull a few cars. Hooked up a 40' box and even threw in a couple of extra looooong passenger cars to be pulled by my Athearn F unit. No problem...now things were looking up.

Next I went to my brand new Proto 2000 PA and also an Athearn PA unit and I even threw in a steamer....they all bit the dust [banghead] at the switches and at a few of the curves. I set the minimum curves at 22 with easements, they should have made it around with no problem. Can't figure this one out...I don't care however for the trucks on the Proto, they seems flimsey. I'm running HO (this is the Granite Gorge and Northern track plan re-vamped with 22" radius and atlas #4 switches). What the heck is going on? [V]

[selector]

What type of track are you using? If it is snap-type, such as EZ-Track, it is possible that you either have horizontal deflection between pieces, or vertical deflection. When I got my Lionel Challenger a couple of months back, I had had good tracking in all my locos to that point. Not the Challenger. It hopped out of my track in places, always at a change of direction (turnouts and curves). When I placed a straightedge over those areas and looked at the way it sat on the rail tops, I could see daylight...gaps. When I jacked up the low spots, the problems went away.

One other remote possibility...did you really lay 22" curves, or did you mix and match inadvertently with 18"? It happens.

This all assumes that we are not dealing with them nasty S curves...?

[ondrek]

I have issues with my track as well, and I am seeing the same kind of engine behavior as you are.

I have two spots in my track that I KNOW are issues. BUT my son's Athearn f7 will just roll right through all the track like its perfect. pull as many cars as you want. If i try to run my MDC 4-4-2 I have derails at the two issus locations. the bachmann spectrum will have issues at the two places and its own 3rd issue location.

What I am finding is that better quality engines will have more problems with substandard track conditions. and Steam have more issues than Diesel .

just my thoughts.

Kevin

[HAZMAT9]

I'm using Atlas Code 83 flex. I made sure that the curves were a min of 22". No sectional track was used. I flagged the problem spots and will go through them with a fine comb this weekend. More concerned that the more expensive six truck locos are giving me the [banghead] aches. I specifically modified the trackplan to accomodate the longer locos....The steamers are really a nightmare derailing at just about every point....more so on the switches and land to bridge transitions (the layout has 12 bridges). With all the newer locos I've got, the loud cranky old Athearn F7 comes through again!!

[selector]

Guaranteed that you have an alignment/out-of-gauge problem at the bridges. I am sure of it. Wear a magnifiying visor if you have one, and watch the gauge as you drag it gently through the mating joins. If you feel the slightest snag, you have your problem.

Did the bridge(s) come already railed, or did you lay rail pieces?

Again, and sorry to harp or state the obvious, but you have actually used the correct gauge to check the loco wheels? You have checked the track every inch? The track is level from piece-to-piece? No dips at curves or joints? Those are the only possibilities other than trucks not responding to their intended design parameters.

[jwar]

If memory serves me, your #4 Atlas turnouts are 18 in and the #8 is 22 in rad. If the wheels derail on top of a turnout look there.

I had a SD unit that would derail only on the inside of a curved turnout, found out the iside curve was 18 and the outside of this curved turnout was 22.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jwar

If memory serves me, your #4 Atlas turnouts are 18 in and the #8 is 22 in rad. If the wheels derail on top of a turnout look there.

I had a SD unit that would derail only on the inside of a curved turnout, found out the iside curve was 18 and the outside of this curved turnout was 22.

On the code 83?? I know the #4 atlas code 100 Snap switches are what you describe but the custom line turnouts are not..

Anyway, HAZMAT9, Lay your face on the rail (make sure the power is off [;)]) so you site along it at true track level, particularly at your transition points (through the turnout and land to bridge transistions) and see if you can detect any alignment problems.. Just like you would look at a piece of wood to see if it's straight. Also see if you can detect any dips or bumps in the rail (these are death to a steam loco), particularly where the tracks join together. Then, use a metal straighedge, set it on edge on top of the rail at the problem places and shine a flashlight behind it (you need 6 hands to do this).. Any place you can see light between the straighedge and the rail is trouble. Where you have a bump, heat up the rail with a soldering iron (the bigger the better), just enough to soften the plastic tie strip and press it down (this requires some patience) to eleviate the bump.. Where you find a dip, shim up the track with some styrene strips..

In sighting down the rail, particularly on curves, you may find a tighter radius than you think you have.. A sure fire way to find out is to make a template of an inside rail and check it.. Heavy poster board works fine or if you want to get fancy, use styrene sheet.. The outer radius of the template should be about 21and 11/16 inches.. Make it longer than a section of track, at least more than 12 inches.. Lay it against the outside of the inner rail on the curve.. If the ends touch and the center of the track is away from the template (significantly) you have a tighter radius inside of your 22" curve.. If the center touches but the ends are away from the template, you have a wider radius.. Either way, this will tell you if your 22" minimum is Actually 22" inch radius (or more)..

If none of that points out your problem, take a freight truck (I find the p2k trucks work best for this), set it on the rails and using both your thumb and finger to gently push it along the track, you'll feel any irregularities (bumps and dips) in the track. You only want to push down on the truck enough to move it, don't bear down on it.

I agree with Selector.. You probably have an alignment problem.. Either side to side or top to bottom. Both will derail a loco..

Good luck,
Jeff

[Anonymous]

Hazmat - I feel the pain!.....

Selector and Rolleiman pretty much covered the next step extremely eloquently. A couple of further comments:

1. Rather than 'rolling a freight truck over the track ' take a look at Micromarks 'Track inspection car' (micromark.com, item # 40916) - If you have any clear plexiglass or the like and a couple of trucks you can of course make your own. In addition to 'the feel' it'll give you a beautiful visual appreciation of any irregularities and what's really happening.

2. My test loco is (the legendary?) Thomas - His eyes are now brite white LEDs and he has a reversing and a gyralite - decoder install practiice! More relevant, if I can persuade him to get round the layout I know my 'real' locos will also be ok. In fact, I don't even bother gettting them out of their boxes if Thomas can't handle it first! Using him, slowly, and observing what his 'truck' does highlights where my 'issues' are - and if he's got issues, experience now tells me that no matter how much I wish otherwise, my steamers are going to be the same - The objective (and I'm almost there on my current trackage!) is for him to get round the layout, slowly, with no interference from the old 0-5-0. Being so light weight, and watching for any 'headlight flashing' (ie, DCC signal loss) is really useful in isolating problems.

Hope it helps!

PS - One more thing - Rolleiman's 'radius template' and check is right on - I use ('cos I had it already) some Atlas sectionals in 18" and 22" radius (ie, soldering 3 pieces for the 18" and 4 for the 22" gives a 90degree template at that radius) - Laying that over your track work will, I'm pretty sure, prove enlightening - Just not always in a positive fashion :-)

Stick with it, heed the words of wisdom from everyone, and I guarantee you'll get things going right!

Good luck,
Ian

[rolleiman]

HAZMAT9, You aren't the only one having trouble with those land to bridge transitions...

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-wrk-rock-ao.jpg

[:D]

Jeff

[HAZMAT9]

Thanks for all the input. The bridge transitions were a problem, I'm using the Atlas Warren Truss bridges along with the pier girders...the Warren Truss bridges were a problem, this was re-done this past weekend and yes they were already railed. I found some dip problems and ended up using a knife and ripped up the Woodland roadbed and shimmed up for smoother transitions. A few of my curves I ended up banking on the elevations as well which seemed to work. I'll run a test tonight since I spent about 8 hrs last night and wanted to wait until the adhesive fully dried. I used foam scrap and wooden popsicle sticks to do the shimming, hope this works. Thanks Again!!

[selector]

HAZMAT, even if it doesn't quite get the results you seek, you know you are heading in the right direction. Don't fret if you still get a derailment, but I am betting you'll see far fewer.

I am glad you are persisting. Some would throw up their hands.

[HAZMAT9]

Thanks Selector, but you know after ripping up that roadbed and dealing with all that sticky adhesive mess....I sure came close to giving up. [sigh] Luckily I only screwed up a few flex sections that I needed to replace. I figured I have too much invested in this to give up now, plus I'm looking forward to adding the street running addition so in order to get to that, I needed to fini***his. [:D]

[SMassey]

I have had the same problem as you are discribing with only Athern locos on my layout. What I discovered on the trains is while my track work is not perfect it was not the trackwork derailing my trains. On the trucks of the Athearn locos they usually push in, and if they are pushed in too far then the loco's wheels will not be able to shift left or right as the train goes through switches and /or curves. Here is what was happening with mine: The train was doing fine till it hits a curve then one of the front wheels would jump the track and derail. This would not be very noticable at first but when it would go through a switch the engine would try to make the switch and derail realy bad. I thought it was always my switch till I started watching the trains and noticed that they were off the track before the switch. My steam does the same but I a chalking that up to my turns being a little too tight for a Class J 4-8-4. All I did to fix this problem is took a small screwdriver and pried the sidframes of my trucks out a little and now my Athearn trains run just fine. So far no problem with my Kato, Proto 2000 or Atlas locomotives.

[Leon Silverman]

One essential tool I have in my track laying assortment is a bubble level. This is a flat disk, about 1-1/2 inches in diameter with a bubble on the top. The whole top is transparent. When you move it along the track, a shifting bubble will indicate a dip or bump in the track that you might not otherwise pick up from eyeballing.

[HAZMAT9]

I ended up having to rip up a bridge section last evening because of a slight dip. Yes I have many bubble levels and they are crucial in RR work, though my problem was that I was elevating on a curve into a bridge transition.....this is what the Atlas plan called for.[sigh] Anyhow I was able to fix this and have a minor adjustment to make on the transitions at the other bridges.

Funny, don't you like when you get a good run and make successful circuits around the track and all of a sudden you have a spot where it derails over and over again.....and there's nothing different about the track or locos and you're left wondering. Well that's what happened at my other bridge crossings. Ran good all night then all of a sudden....crunch! Other than that my switches and crossings are still jostling the locos and cars around a bit but they're staying on track. I've given up on my steamers for now...seems not to be the layout for them.

[selector]

Don't worry, Hazmat. My stuff all jostles because I am using commercial turnouts. I have tried grinding down the flangeways in the frogs, but I may be doing more harm than good if the fellow at Fast Tracks is right. He says the commercial ones tend to rely on metal filler to help the flanges to ride throught the frog, whereas his handlaying method doesn't. I will commence making some of his handlaid turnouts in the late winter in preparation for Sentinel Railway #2. We are doing a basement reno, thanks to a rather generous gift from Dad, and that gives me the go ahead to tear down and build something much better...including handlaid track.

You should have been able to ease that curve in elevation as the Atlas people said, but you would have had to cheat a bit and continue the easement onto the bridge deck, not an easy thing to do with tiny shims or whatever in that confined space. I would have dusted the deck on the elevated side with a few grains of fine sand, and left it all at that.

One last point - go easy on the elevations. They should be noticeable but only just. If your cars and locos are tilting more than 2 deg off vertical, that is too much...you are inviting headaches.

[Medina1128]

Actually, selector, I think you have it backwards. If you lay your template outside of the rails and the ends of the template touch and the track is away from the template, it indicates a wider radius. And if the track touches in the center and the ends of the template are away from the track, it indicates a smaller radius...

[HAZMAT9]

Well I've got only one bug left which is one last bridge transition. It seems that everything is meshed correctly and all my diesels are running with the exception of an Atlas Trainmaster. At the bridge, the front trucks derail although the track is level and no burrs to speak of. When manually taking the loco over the area, I feel the front of the loco dipping slightly to one side which seems to be the derail point, but I can't find anything there to cause it. All other locos are fine...this one just doesn't want to take the bridge. The trucks are really touchy on this loco. Anyhow, I pulled a few freights last evening with one of my F units and it did well.