Am I defeated before I even get started?

[jacon12]

Being the newbie that I am, I built my benchwork with 1/2 inch plywood on 1x4 inch frame supported by 2x4 legs. I then glued 2 inch extruded foam on top of that. Here's diagram (ignore the red line) of the benchwork in the room..

Since doing this I've been told that I made things harder for myself by doing so. I guess that's because it will be a little more difficult to make inclines, different levels of track etc.
The reason I did it this way was because I am new at all this and my original thoughts were to stay away from the more complicated inclines etc.
I'd really like your opinions on this as it's not to late to change. Lotta work and expense maybe.
My next question is about laying track. I've used pieces of sectional Atlas track to figure how the best way to do a layout. Now, assuming I don't tear all this down and start over, I'm about to lay the first permanent track. I thought I'd start in the yard area and I'm not sure where or how would be the best way to proceed.

Should I start with the loop and then run the straight tangent line along the backdrop, or vice versa? What's the best area to start?
Jarrell

[dehusman]

For some reason everybody now wants to put their layout on sheets of foam. Haven't figured out why yet. I built one on foam and will probably never do it again.

Any way.

Yes its way harder to do inclines in foam. It doesn't bend as easily as plywood.
But you can put in inclines, you'll probably want to use the Woodland scenics ramps.

As far as your yard, its a good basic design. The only caution i would have is that hthe switching yard, which will have the most hands on activity of any location on your layout is in the back of the layout. Since the reach is only 2 ft its not a deal killer. You might want to look at swapping the freight and passenger yards, since on most layouts passenger trains do much less switching than freight trains. Like I said, its not the end of the world, just might make it more convienient.

Normally you want to layout trackage from the most constrained to the least constrained. In your case the curve in the big loop is the most constrained. Lay it out first. Then the passenger tracks and the main along the back wall. By "layout" I mean use a pencil or marker to draw the centerlines. Then take your switches and assemble them in the arrangement you want and position them on the layout. Don't be a fraid to slide them around and tweak them to see if there is a better arrangement. If you haven't bought them yet, buy one left and one right switch and then photocopy them and cut out the photocopies and play with them. When you get the switches set where you want, layout of the yard tracks between the switches. Then go back and install roadbed and track.

Dave H.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

Being the newbie that I am, I built my benchwork with 1/2 inch plywood on 1x4 inch frame supported by 2x4 legs. I then glued 2 inch extruded foam on top of that. Here's diagram (ignore the red line) of the benchwork in the room..

Since doing this I've been told that I made things harder for myself by doing so. I guess that's because it will be a little more difficult to make inclines, different levels of track etc.
The reason I did it this way was because I am new at all this and my original thoughts were to stay away from the more complicated inclines etc.
I'd really like your opinions on this as it's not to late to change. Lotta work and expense maybe.

The traditional "expert" way to to make different levels on a layout like you are building would be to use an open grid framework with risers to support track and scenic elements at different levels. Building a table like you have pre-dates other methods and there is nothing wrong with it. While In the old days building different levels on a table was more difficult, but with current materials like Woodland Scenics terrain system which includes inclines, building different levels is easy. You can also easily make different levels and inclines by stacking and shaping extruded foam.

[rolleiman]

Jarrel, I'm not a big fan of foam as a layout base either.. I think it presents too many problems that need not exist.. Just look at all the threads around here about mounting switch machines. Anyway, to introduce your grades, before tearing everything up, try the cookie cutter method.. That is, draw a profile of your track you want elevated and then go about 2 or 3 feet back from the start point.. Cut the foam on each side of where the track would lay and then gently begin to prop it up until your grade level is achieved.. Of course since it's already glued to the table, this may prove difficult. Just like curves, grades need easements to function properly.. That is, you don't want to jerk right into them like a rocket ship taking off.. Nor do you want an abrupt end at the to that'll act like a ramp.. This is the biggest error I see people make when they talk about How long a graded track should be.. They ALWAYS forget about the start and stop of the grade.

With respect to layout out the curves, Start from a straight, work your way all the way through the curve and back to a straight.. Otherwise, you'll almost Always end up with a kink somewhere that will forever plague you..


Good luck,
Jeff

[chateauricher]

Don't let these others scare you away from using foam. Its not nearly as difficult or restrtictive as they say. If you goof, just lift up your tracks and re-lay them. Not so simple to correct a mistake when you use the plywood cookie-cutter method.

To build up is simple — just add more layers of foam, then shape the foam and/or cover with plaster for the final shape.

To "dig" down — just cut into the foam.

To build grades (inclines) — Woodland Scenics' foam inclines are the simplest way to go.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman
Yes its way harder to do inclines in foam. It doesn't bend as easily as plywood.

True; but only if you're using the cookie-cutter method which is not very compatible with foam.


When laying your tracks, try to follow this order :

1. Hard to reach areas in case you have to crawl or stand on your benchwork, and to prevent reaching over already placed and fragile elements;


2. Critical track elements such as turnouts, curves, etc whose location is crucial to your layout plans; and


3. Everything else.

[selector]

I would think of the big space-eating elements and fit them in first. This includes roundhouse and turntable, station, main street, water courses, etc. Situate them, and the tracks can be made to fit if you use flex-track. Final adjustments to each can be done just before you begin to peg in your track and switches. Those final adjustments, BTW, can drive you crazy and will eat up a lot of your "happy" reserve, particularly when you realize you are out of room for what you envision. Also, don't cheat on the curves; if you have decided on a 22" minimum, don't shoehorn an 18"er in someplace just to make ends meet. If it comes to that, step back and rethink.

A good suggestion, as Timothy says, is to do the work furthest from where you will operate/stand first so that you are not kneeling on nicely laid switches in the foreground. Do the stuff against backdrop and walls first.

One final word of advice: look back. Look over what you have done often. Also, look ahead. Place track pieces and structures where you intend to put them occassionally, and make sure the warm and fuzzy feeling is there. Are you heading toward a shoehorned curve?

[jacon12]

Guys I really appreciate the advice and will remember it all. I've bought some of the Peco turnouts, enough to do the yard area you see in the drawing above, and I bought some WS 2% inclines to experiment with.
I've also had mixed feelings about the passenger siding being at the front and the yard at the back . Although the turnout switches (I'm not planning on using remote switch machines) are not that far away I don't feel REAL comfortable with reaching over a parked passenger train AND a small passenger station all the time. But, I don't know if I've got room for the yard if I move it to the front unless I use curved turnouts. I've thought about moving the passenger track to the other side of the layout completely
Anyway, I appreciate the suggestions and the tips! They really do help.
Jarrell

[oleirish]

Jarrell
I like what everyone said about starting in the back of the layout,and working to the frount!You have an lot of room to work with!use it!Figure what you like best about raidroads#1,then go from there.I think I would put the passenger station to the rear,and yard to the frount..Figure out how the town and industries would look,( you know people and towns were there before trains)then go from there.I wish I had the room you have!!!Maybe get the main line in and run trains![:D][^]Oh yah get some paint,(GREEN&TAN) and paint the pink foam,you would be supprised what you can see then,place buildings around here and there,maybe stick an tree in ever so often,a little brush allso,then things will start to happen,Trust me[8D][:)][:-,]

JIM

[ARTHILL]

The WS incline idea is a good one for the transitions to the next level, For gentle inclines I have just tilted the sheet of foam, though most of mtylayout is cookie cutter. That was primarily because I understood it and had the materials on hand. The WS method looks awfully good. The one thing I have done is to eliminate the plaster cloth and carve the slopes and rocks dirrectly in the foam. Hve fun, remember none of us got it right the first time, no matter how much we planned.

[dgwinup]

Hi, Jarrell.

First of all, work with what you have done. I am a BIG supporter of foam layout construction. I don't recommend foam-on-plywood as a construction method, but since you have it, let's make the best of it.

One of the hardest things to do when using foam is to think "out of the box". Foam is flat, plywood is flat, and many people use them interchangably. That ignores one of the many benefits of foam - ease of modification! Plywood is great for cookie-cutter construction, foam isn't. Plywood bends easily into grades, foam doesn't. Plywood is difficult to cut and modify into grades, foam is EASY! Need an easy grade? Slice wedges of foam, glue in place and start laying track! Want a transitional grade? Use a slab of foam supported on foam risers so the whole surface is your grade! Already glued a piece in place and it's too big? Get out the carving knife and slice away! Try THAT with plywood! LOL I'd stay away from WS inclines and risers, simply because you are locked into a grade that may be more than you want. It is easy to cut a wedge of foam EXACTLY to the grade you want.

Consider what you have to be a flat canvas on which you will build a three-dimensional representation of a railroad. Add foam where you need height, carve out some foam where you want some dips and valleys. Foam is so easy to add, shape, carve and modify. It adds a new dimension to building scenery.

As to where to start, Timothy stated it best: start from the farthest point and work towards the front of the layout. Dave H. is right about the yard location not being a deal killer. Depending on how big your passenger station is, reaching back to the yard should not be a major problem. Putting the yard in front results in shortening the yard length to accomodate the loop at the end of the layout. You will probably prefer the larger yard.

Here's a detailed suggestion: As I recall, the loop on the peninsula rises 3" to feed into the passenger station area. That means the passenger station and yard are 3" above the rest of the layout. I don't know the height of the track leaving the yard to the left on your drawing. Since the passenger station is already 3" higher, locating it to the rear would require the inbound track to pass over the yard's outbound track. The yard can then be at the front of the layout at a lower elevation, which allows the yard to exit below the track leading to the station at the higher elevation. Since I suck at using ANY of the track-planning software, I drew a quick sketch of what I mean:



Here are a few pictures of how I made some grades on my little layout:

This one shows a 1" slab of foam used to make a long, gentle grade by supporting the foam slab with small foam risers. Using the slab, there are no transition curves at the top or bottom of the grade.


This picture shows two things: it shows how the grade was originally established using multiple wedges of foam to gently raise the track. It also shows how I corrected a dip in the grade by slitting the underlying foam and stuffing pieces of cork roadbed into the slit to slightly raise the grade in that area.


As I said, foam is very easy to work with and very forgiving for correcting mistakes or making changes.

Hope this helps.

Darrell, quiet...for now

[Adelie]

No way, Jarrell, never admit defeat in this hobby. At worst, it would be a minor setback that yielded learning.

I am an advocate of the cookie cutter method. I understand why others use foam, but I don't understand why I would. At any rate, since foam is what you have, that is what you will make work.

For whatever it is worth, Jarrell, I'd start with the end loop and work towards the other loops. That probably means you should start with the yard and work towards the loops! [;)] The order that Timothy laid out is pretty much how I've always done it.

I have found one of those laser devices to be a great tool at lining stuff up. I used it to line up a curve in my staging area from the tangent of another curve 28' away, and then lay out the parallel tracks that comprised the hidden yard in between. It is a tool I would recommend for a layout of this size.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

Jarrell
I like what everyone said about starting in the back of the layout,and working to the frount!You have an lot of room to work with!use it!Figure what you like best about raidroads#1,then go from there.I think I would put the passenger station to the rear,and yard to the frount..Figure out how the town and industries would look,( you know people and towns were there before trains)then go from there.I wish I had the room you have!!!Maybe get the main line in and run trains![:D][^]Oh yah get some paint,(GREEN&TAN) and paint the pink foam,you would be supprised what you can see then,place buildings around here and there,maybe stick an tree in ever so often,a little brush allso,then things will start to happen,Trust me[8D][:)][:-,]

JIM

Jim, I've been athinkin' on the passenger station to the back track but that would mean the station would be between us and the track, with the back of the station facing us.
Hmmmm..... I wonder.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ARTHILL

The WS incline idea is a good one for the transitions to the next level, For gentle inclines I have just tilted the sheet of foam, though most of mtylayout is cookie cutter. That was primarily because I understood it and had the materials on hand. The WS method looks awfully good. The one thing I have done is to eliminate the plaster cloth and carve the slopes and rocks dirrectly in the foam. Hve fun, remember none of us got it right the first time, no matter how much we planned.

Art, if I can just keep that in mind... it's not going to be perfect.. it's not going to be perfect... no matter what I do, it's not going to be perfect.
Jarrrell

[selector]

I have never done anything perfectly, but I have done them well. You may not have a perfect layout, but most of it will be good...really good. Just accept that you will have to think things through now and then, and that a solution will come to you if you take your time. You have no dealines but the ones you set for yourself.

Look back over what you have done.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup

Hi, Jarrell.

First of all, work with what you have done. I am a BIG supporter of foam layout construction. I don't recommend foam-on-plywood as a construction method, but since you have it, let's make the best of it.

One of the hardest things to do when using foam is to think "out of the box". Foam is flat, plywood is flat, and many people use them interchangably. That ignores one of the many benefits of foam - ease of modification! Plywood is great for cookie-cutter construction, foam isn't. Plywood bends easily into grades, foam doesn't. Plywood is difficult to cut and modify into grades, foam is EASY! Need an easy grade? Slice wedges of foam, glue in place and start laying track! Want a transitional grade? Use a slab of foam supported on foam risers so the whole surface is your grade! Already glued a piece in place and it's too big? Get out the carving knife and slice away! Try THAT with plywood! LOL I'd stay away from WS inclines and risers, simply because you are locked into a grade that may be more than you want. It is easy to cut a wedge of foam EXACTLY to the grade you want.

Consider what you have to be a flat canvas on which you will build a three-dimensional representation of a railroad. Add foam where you need height, carve out some foam where you want some dips and valleys. Foam is so easy to add, shape, carve and modify. It adds a new dimension to building scenery.

As to where to start, Timothy stated it best: start from the farthest point and work towards the front of the layout. Dave H. is right about the yard location not being a deal killer. Depending on how big your passenger station is, reaching back to the yard should not be a major problem. Putting the yard in front results in shortening the yard length to accomodate the loop at the end of the layout. You will probably prefer the larger yard.

Here's a detailed suggestion: As I recall, the loop on the peninsula rises 3" to feed into the passenger station area. That means the passenger station and yard are 3" above the rest of the layout. I don't know the height of the track leaving the yard to the left on your drawing. Since the passenger station is already 3" higher, locating it to the rear would require the inbound track to pass over the yard's outbound track. The yard can then be at the front of the layout at a lower elevation, which allows the yard to exit below the track leading to the station at the higher elevation. Since I suck at using ANY of the track-planning software, I drew a quick sketch of what I mean:



Here are a few pictures of how I made some grades on my little layout:

This one shows a 1" slab of foam used to make a long, gentle grade by supporting t

Hope this helps.

Darrell, quiet...for now

Wow, thanks for the drawing and the pictures. They certainly help in understanding what someone is talking about. I love'em! I'm going to try my hand at cutting some inclines out of some extra pieces of foam I have. Thanks for the tip. One of the hardest things for me in this layout business is to think in 3D. I have trouble visualizing what could be. But with time maybe that'll change.
By the way, I suck at cad programs too!
Jarrell... going for dinner now.. [:p]

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Adelie

No way, Jarrell, never admit defeat in this hobby. At worst, it would be a minor setback that yielded learning.

I am an advocate of the cookie cutter method. I understand why others use foam, but I don't understand why I would. At any rate, since foam is what you have, that is what you will make work.

For whatever it is worth, Jarrell, I'd start with the end loop and work towards the other loops. That probably means you should start with the yard and work towards the loops! [;)] The order that Timothy laid out is pretty much how I've always done it.

I have found one of those laser devices to be a great tool at lining stuff up. I used it to line up a curve in my staging area from the tangent of another curve 28' away, and then lay out the parallel tracks that comprised the hidden yard in between. It is a tool I would recommend for a layout of this size.

And I think I have one of those, came with my cordless drill. I'll chase it down. Thanks for your input, all I can get is much appreciated!
Jarrell

[oleirish]

Jarrell

I have an question??Why are you not useing under the table switch michines??If you used them you could leave your station up frount,and not reach over it!!If you are scared of wireing there is a lot of manual systeams available!

Just a throught??
JIM

[dehusman]

The problem with doing grades by cutting foam is being able to cut a smooth transition and a consistent grade around curves and over long distances.

When I built my son's previous layout I used blue foam and used 1/2 inch foam in a cookie cutter method and built up the shims UNDER the top piece. That way I always had a smooth surface that had consistant grades and smooth transitions.

Dave H.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The problem with doing grades by cutting foam is being able to cut a smooth transition and a consistent grade around curves and over long distances.

When I built my son's previous layout I used blue foam and used 1/2 inch foam in a cookie cutter method and built up the shims UNDER the top piece. That way I always had a smooth surface that had consistant grades and smooth transitions.

Dave H.

So what you are saying is Cookie cutter DOES work with foam.. I thought it might in spite of what some people here have said..

Good luck Jarrel, Show us what you did when you get some track down..

Jeff