Freight yard design inputs requested.

[XMarine]

The wife agreed to my buying a closed hardware store to build my dream layout in. The train room is 83' X 25'. I want to build a 4' x 24' freight yard on a 6' X 32' peninsula. Should the yard be stub tracks or double ended? Do I angle the yard or run it straight down the length? Your input would be helpful.

[stokesda]

To answer the first question, double-ended tracks are generally preferred if you have a continuous line coming out of both ends of the yard with trains entering/leaving in both directions. Stub would work if it's on a dead end. Another consideration is cost, as the number of turnouts you need basically doubles when you have double-ended. If you can afford to buy a hardware store, I guess that might not be too much of an issue, though [;)]

Second question - depends on how much available space you have. They always say try not to run tracks parallel to the edge because it looks less interesting than if they're curved or at an angle to the edge. Sometimes you can't really help it, though. I say whatever you're happy with and whatever you can make work in your space/track plan should be fine.

On a related note, if you haven't done so yet, you might want to read through a few books that go into more detail about yards and how they're built, how they operate, etc. Probably the best starting point is "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" by John Armstrong.

Good luck! You're fortunate to have a space that big to build your dream layout. My entire layout probably fits in a space about 1/3 the size of your yard peninsula!

[IRONROOSTER]

I would definitely read John Armstrong's book. This book "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards" By Andy Sperandeo is also worth a look. It doen't have to be all double ended or stub tracks - you could do a combination.
Enjoy
Paul

[dragonriversteel]

Paul has the best advice,read those books and you'll learn build one @%&$ of a freight yard.


Patrick

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by XMarine
I want to build a 4' x 24' freight yard on a 6' X 32' peninsula. Should the yard be stub tracks or double ended?

That depends on whether you want it to be the "end of the line" or one out in the center of the railroad somewhere. Purely numerically speaking, I believe most yards would be double sided.

QUOTE: Do I angle the yard or run it straight down the length?

Do you care about how it looks or is it going to be totally utilitarian.

QUOTE: The wife agreed to my buying a closed hardware store to build my dream layout in. The train room is 83' X 25'.

I'm sort of in the same situation. I've got an old school lined up in two years and the main train room is 90'x30' with about a 20' ceiling. I've been good with smaller layouts but am overwhelmed, with this one. Don't know where to start except I'm opposite of you. I don't think I want a large classification yard.

[Anonymous]

You might finally be the model railroader who doesn't wish for more room. As others have said read up on the subject. In past issues of model railroader there have been numberous topics dealing with yards, and there have been several books published on the topic.

Also I'm going on your post name X Marine. Semper Fi Devil Dog. I am soon to be a Retired Marine. I'm in New Bern NC shoot me an e-mail lamajepa@devil-dog,com

[dehusman]

I suggest you do beau coup more reading and studying before you start laying track. From you r questions and the description of your area you have the opportunity to spend a lot of money to build something that won't work right. Read John Armstrong's "A railroad, what it is, what it does", and "Track Planning for realistic operations". Then read several books on your area of interest. $100 spent on books now will save you thousands of dallars in mistakes later on (based on the area you have to work with.)

Dave H.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

I second, triple and quaddruple Dave's, Paul's and others comments here about reading. Use the net, use the library, ask questions here and spend the bucks on these books. I thought I was spending an enormouse amount on reading materials but looking back at this early stage in my modeling experience I can see where they are well worth the money and are something I will refer back to time and time again.

BTW. [#welcome] and long live the forums.

[XMarine]

To all who said buy the books and read - read - read. I have ordered all the books listed so far in the replies. Most have not arrived yet, it will be hard to firgure just what to do since the books I do have offer both ways of designing a freight yard and none deal with LARGE freight yards. I thought asking here would provide common ideas for such a large yard. By the way, I love assembly of trains and switching. SO the yard must work and work right.

[Anonymous]

Try your library for the books. With a layout that size you will need the money for turnouts. Good luck.

[XMarine]

Quote: Do you care about how it looks or is it going to be totally utilitarian.

This yard must work and look real. The main line will run around the peninsula since the whole layout is planned to be continuous loop running with about 10 peninsulas, each peninsula will feature different scenes (i.e. a fair, a military base, farm land, city, mountains, harbor, etc...) The peninsula with the yard will also have engine storage and service, passenger station and beginings of a city.

The layout will be built in stages (one peninsula at a time) with the freight yard and part of the city first. Once the layout gets to the point of being able to run trains, I will be hosting open houses for the public every month. The building is in the middle of downtown Deshler, Ne (a small rural farm town).

[dehusman]

The yard is a processing plant. If is like the backroom at a post office. That is where the inbound sacks of mail from the other post offices and from everybody's mail boxes is brought in dumped on the table and sorted. Some is inbound and goes to adresses in the area, that is sorted to each mailman's route (local) and some is going outbound to other cities and post offices (through freight and interchange).

So you have to have some idea of what you are sorting for.

In general a double ended yard is the highest production yard because you use two switchers to work it. There are tracks that are long tracks generally called arrival and departure tracks (AD) that trains terminate or originate out of. Then a job on one end is the 'class' job that switches the cars, sorts them into the tracks in the yard by destination or outbound train. On the other end is the "trim" job that gathers up the cars for each train, puts them in the right order and then puts the built train in the outbound AD track. In a pinch either end can perform either job, so that helps in high demand times.

The maximum you can reach across is about 30" or about 14-15 tracks. So I would make it parallel the the length of the peninsula.
If I were building a yard that big (and I have for a club layout), I would start with 4-6 AD tracks and 8-10 class tracks. Both ends will need switch leads.
Depending on the era and what you are using for a switcher would determine the length of the tracks. A steamer won't move over 15-20 cars reliably unless it is specially weighted or a heavily weighted brass engine, so making the class tracks much longer than that is a waste.

Having said all that read, read read, before you do anything involving actual wood cutting.

Another resource is the Layout Design Sig and Operations Sig (special interest group).
Both have groups on Yahoo and deal a lot with these issues.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ldsig/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/

The LDSig put aout a special magazine on yard design several years ago, you might want to order that one (LDJ7 June 1992 80pg, $9.00)

http://www.ldsig.org/

http://www.opsig.org/

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/%7Esmithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html

http://www.opsig.org/primer/

http://www.ldsig.org/back.issues.html

The LDSig Yahoo group WON'T design a yard for you. They will discuss design concepts and if you have a plan for a yard they will make suggestions on what will and won't work or make suggestions on how to improve it.

The OPSig deals with operations, rules, car routing, car forwarding systems (car cards, waybills, lists, etc) and also with how various industries work.

Dave H.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman
Another resource is the Layout Design Sig and Operations Sig
<snip>
The LDSig put out a special magazine on yard design several years ago, you might want to order that one (LDJ7 June 1992 80pg, $9.00)
http://www.ldsig.org/back.issues.html

The back issue Dave H. suggested is a very good resource. One of the projects described in that issue is a 5-8 foot wide, 60 foot long yard in HO that replicates much of the operation of a large real-life yard.

Regards,

Byron

[ereimer]

are you modelling a specific prototype ? or freelancing but based on several real railroads ? or just making it up as you go along ?

whichever it is it makes sense to study what the real railroads have done , after all it's their job and if they don't get it right you can bet somebody is going to be in a deep pile ! you're one of the few model railroaders who is ever going to have the space to build a near scale representation of the real thing . you may have to compress some features , like the distance between towns , and the total number of tracks in a yard , and the size of industries , but there's no reason you can't build it very much like the real thing .

just curious... how much help are you getting with this project or are you really building it on your own ?

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by XMarine

The wife agreed to my buying a closed hardware store to build my dream layout in. The train room is 83' X 25'. I want to build a 4' x 24' freight yard on a 6' X 32' peninsula. Should the yard be stub tracks or double ended? Do I angle the yard or run it straight down the length? Your input would be helpful.

Be careful what you wish for!

Your space probably calls for a large but simple layout design. If you allow things to get complex, then you may have a maintainance nightmare. Use the space for long runs between stations with loads of scenery.

Have fun

[XMarine]

In responce to "ereimer" - I am at present trying to do this alone. The local model railroaders don't want to admit to being such. I am the first to be open about it that is in the public view. The rest only let very close friends know they railroad. As to prototype or freelance - well - I like the old Santa Fe but am not modeling it just using some ideas. Therefore it is freelance (Salvo Hill Line) and the moto is "Making the Grade". As to doing it like the REAL Railroads, a high school friend of mine is working for the KCS as an architect - he designs yards and business areas for them. He has offerred to assist in the design but admits he knows nothing about HO scale trackwork and switches. I plan to draft a basic design and send to him for modifications as needed to make it work correctly; that is why the questions about double end or stub.

in reply to "exPalaceDog" - I realize that I can not get over loaded with switching sidings (even though I enjoy switching) and plan to keep it simple just because it would require many hours and much money to maintain otherwise. I want to run trains not fix and repair! I figure the big yard will give me the switching fixes I like. I figure one switching area per peninsula if even that many would be enough.

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: [in reply to "exPalaceDog" - I realize that I can not get over loaded with switching sidings (even though I enjoy switching) and plan to keep it simple just because it would require many hours and much money to maintain otherwise. I want to run trains not fix and repair! I figure the big yard will give me the switching fixes I like. I figure one switching area per peninsula if even that many would be enough.

In that case, the Old Dog would suggest looking at a small division poing yard where most of the traffic runs straight through but with engine servicing and crew changes. Have maybe four low priority freights per day drop and/or pick up cars for the local way freights. That would give some classification yard switching without having to make up and/or break down every train. You will need some sidings for local industries to give the way freights something to do.

A small passenger station could generate additional interest. Maybe add some stock resting pens and reefer icing platforms.

Have fun

[chateauricher]

Considering you plan a 24ft long yard, you may want to incorporate a series of cross-overs part-way along your yard so that you can move from one yard track to another without having to go the full length of the yard (thereby saving time). They could also be considered run-arounds, if positioned carefully. I know this would increase the number of turnouts you'll need; but it may help make working your yard more efficient and enjoyable. Just my humble [2c] .

By the way, you are probably the envy of a great number of us here. [swg] To have a spouse who would agree to you spending such money just for a place for your trains; and to have the money to acquire such a space... [sigh] ... dreams are made of such things. [sigh]

[Medina1128]

I only have one question; would you and your wife like to adopt a son? [:D]

[Tom Bryant_MR]

Wow [bow]

For most of us it's probably Dream, Plan, Build

For you it is
Dream, Plan, Build

[ereimer]

this sounds like an "if you build it , they will come" type of project . i'm sure once the local closet model railroaders see that you're actually going to build this massive layout they'll want to be involved . help them out a bit by advertising in the local papers that you're starting a model railroad club and you're looking for a few members . the downside to this of course is they'll want to be included in the decisions about what to build . drive carefully if you head down this road !

about the yard ... if you go for double ended i'm not sure a peninsula with the mainline running around it would be the best place , i'd think about putting it at one of the ends of the building so you have tracks running into it from both ends , and also have tracks running past it so trains can run around the layout without fouling the yard

[XMarine]

To ereimer: I thought of the club idea but decided against that just for the reason of having to give up control on the design. I have approached a couple of the closet guys about helping build in return for running rights on layout. One expressed interest, the other two just looked at me like I was dumb. The peninsula for the yard is one end of the running loop along the building that is why it will be so long. The yard peninsula will be near the center of the room with its connection angled across the north-eastern front window to the northern wall which will have the base the other peninsulas extend out from. Have not decided on the width of the base yet - thinking of almost a shelf type (narrow with some scenery). Those peninsulas will only be 4' wide X 6 to 8' long. That gives a 6' south walkway and 3' walkway between the yard and the wall connected peninsulas. There will be 3' walkways between each of the smaller peninsulas. The peninsula at the other end of the room from the yard will be almost "U" shaped for a big harbor scene. Each section built will be able to operate as a stand-alone layout if desired or ganged together for the open houses (to give really long runs for the trains). Also allows for the big layout to be built in smaller sections and still run trains during open houses.

As for my wife (30+ years) - it only took three years to get her agreement to buy the building. YES, she is a great woman for allowing me to spend that much on my hobby. I have set up the old office area for her to work on her crafts (needlepoint, plastic beads and plastic canvas). I always try to spend dollar for dollar on her crafts and my trains, that keeps her happy.

[tigerstripe]

After months of reading, study and much confusion.....I stumbled on this
http://www.housatonicrr.com/
about 1/2 way down under 10 commandments of yard design.
quick and easy explanations of what this track is; any how / why its use.
5 minutes later, the light is still dim, but its getting brighter....

I got more from this than from 30 pounds of layout design books.
Hope this helps.

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerstripe

After months of reading, study and much confusion.....I stumbled on this
http://www.housatonicrr.com/
about 1/2 way down under 10 commandments of yard design.
quick and easy explanations of what this track is; any how / why its use.
5 minutes later, the light is still dim, but its getting brighter....

I got more from this than from 30 pounds of layout design books.
Hope this helps.

Me too [;)]

[Anonymous]

The books suggested are all great sources of info. I have a friend who is an engineer on the Illinois Central that I persuaded to come over and check my layout over. He is not a model railroader, but the things he showed me and told me to change were miraculous to say the least. That experience of real railroading just can't be bought. He broke everything down for me to be able to understand and use common sense in yard design. He also explained that the real railroads don't always get it right the first time so don't be afraid of making a mistake every now and then. I used RTR TO's on my main ladders, but learned to lay my own which was a big help when a special situation pops up and you can make any track configuration called for. BTW are you going to use conventional DC or DCC?and I'm guessing HO scal?

[XMarine]

OOPPS - Forgot to state layout will be HO. I have so many older engines, would not be able to use DCC. Besides I am old fashioned - like conventional DC.

[waltersrails]

Sounds great that you get to build your dream layout. Some yards i have seen use both double ended
and dead tracks. many dead tracks to park engines in for refueling porposes.

[dehusman]

If you have a chance to operate a layout with DCC, do so. It may be scary now, but in the long run DCC will simplify your life on a large layout. Especially if you will be operating a big (area) layout by yourself or with one or two people.

A couple thoughts on the overall design. If you anticipate only have yourself and 3 or four other guys running the layout, you have to give some serious consideration to what kind of railroad you want to have. With a small crew you can model a fairly low traffic branchline with a lot of local work (even to the point of only running 2 or 3 trains per session, but having 2 man crews on each train) or you can run a large mainline operation where you run many trains, but don't switch that much. Which one you pick makes a big difference in what the yard and for that matter the whole layout looks like.

In the words of G Bush 41, its the "vision thing". Building a layout that requires 12 guys to operate and only being able to come up with 5 will be very frustrating. If you design a large layout to operate with 4 people, you usually can over double that amount if required. For example if you normally have 1 yard job, 1 local and 2 road haul jobs, that's 4 guys. By adding a second yard engine, a dispatcher, train order operator, and using 2 man crews on the road you can up the "body count" to 10 people easy.

More food for thought.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by waltersrails

Sounds great that you get to build your dream layout. Some yards i have seen use both double ended
and dead tracks. many dead tracks to park engines in for refueling porposes.

Sorry if I am dense. Dead end tracks or electrically dead tracks or both? I can see advantages and disadvantages both ways.