What do Modelers want?

[Anonymous]

Modelers,
I am a design engineer for MPLX ELECTRONICS SYSTEMS and we would like to hear from YOU what electronics products you would like to see on the market that would greatly improve your modeling. Since I personally feel that this is a popular place for comments, I decided to take matters into my own hands and see just what you need in electronics products. It is a part of our "Taking It To The Streets" Program on helping the most important aspect of business - the consumer. Feel free to reply to this with your "wants" and we will evaluate them. We will contact you concerning your requests and possibly produce a product(s) that seem most popularly needed for the Model Railroading Market.
Sincerely,
J. Price

[GDRMCo]

Hmmm. Well Mr Price one thing I personally would like is small AC motors that can fit between the axles of a HO scale locomotive. If u can pull this off u'd be big innovators in the model RR market. My email is [e-mail]
Mitchell

[SpaceMouse]

A sub-woofer that sits under the track and uses the rails to transmit sound data from the decoders. Low frequency is what is missing from loco sound decoders.

[SpaceMouse]

I didn't find your company with a google search. Do you have a URL you can post for us?

[MisterBeasley]

There is a lot of interest in turnout indicators, either to control on-layout signals or to drive indicator lights on the control panels. With the high-end Tortoise switch machines, these contacts are provided automatically, but for those modellers who use momentary-contact, twin-coil switch machines, it's always an add-on. There are circuits that people publi***o do this in solid-state, but for the average modeller that's a lot of circuit-building. I personally get cheap DPDT latching relays and use those, but it's still a hassle to solder the wires on and make all the connections.

The Atlas Track Relay is example, but the MSRP on those is 9 bucks, and they discount at around 7. I buy relays for 5. So, there's the application and the competition for you.

[jwr_1986]

There is always the dream of moving away from electrified track completely. Other wise I really like spacemouse's idea.

Jesse

[Javern]

low cost signaling systems

[Anonymous]

Modelers,
These seem like pretty good ideas. Keep them coming for your own benefit. If we find a consistent need for a product, more than likely, that product will appear on the market.

We are re-doing our web site. It is now: www.mplxsystems.com; however, it will be about a week or a little more for it to be up and running.
Sincerely,
J. Price

[Anonymous]

I agree with MisterBeasley, I would like to see in HO turnout indicators with green and red lights that show the direction of the turnout. Like Lionel does on their turnouts

[tomytuna]

A Signaling system that is " Plug n Play"....None of us have unlimited time and $ but pay for "GOOD Quality" products....I am trying to find a good signaling system that is COMPLETE out of the box and ready to install....the frustration of purchasing an expensive electronic piece and then finding out that I have to purchase additional pcs to compete the installation drives me Nuts.....Tom

[Anonymous]

Modelers,

I didn't space between the semicolon and our web site. It should read www.mplxsystems.com and not the other above. It will be running, like I said, in about a week. Keep the ideas coming!

Sincerely,
J. Price

[claycts]

I have been following this thread with great interest since I am a modler and a business owner. The BIGGEST things that ANY customers want are:
1. Quality
2. Service AFTER the sale
3. Not being treated like a CASH COW to the supplier. (sorry $5.00 for a DPDT is a bit much)
4. Honest answer as to WHEN they will get what they order (6 weeks and counting on an order of an "IN STOCK NOW" item)
5. Enough information on the product so they can make a choice on what they need. (the phrase DCC Friendly is OVER USED) A little information as to WHY it is and the Qualtity Control to MAKE SURE it realy is. Soldering on a $50.00 DCC Friendly turnout should not be SOP.
The final item is the most important to my customers:
Conistant quality and always as advertised products.
Give them the above and you will be able to make things that they never thought they needed but because you have their confidence they buy it.
George P
(soap box is put away)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

I have been following this thread with great interest since I am a modler and a business owner. The BIGGEST things that ANY customers want are:
1. Quality
2. Service AFTER the sale
3. Not being treated like a CASH COW to the supplier. (sorry $5.00 for a DPDT is a bit much)
4. Honest answer as to WHEN they will get what they order (6 weeks and counting on an order of an "IN STOCK NOW" item)
5. Enough information on the product so they can make a choice on what they need.

Good one George,

As a business owner AND a consumer I agree wholeheartedly. My business is designing electronics, the last few years has been in robotics and scientific instruments. But my daughter (all of six years old!) is now not only a keen robotics fan but also has got intensely interested in model railroads and we are building a small 'N' scale layout for her right now.

I have built a complete DCC system for my own N scale layout (using mainly NCE decoders) to which I have added vehicle location using RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) so I can tell which train and/or which block of track each vehicle is in. I use this to do, for example, auto-stop at station when a loco approaches the platform, pause, and resume journey. But presently, I have no signalling at all on the layout.

So what constitutes a good signalling system? Is there a reference that describes safe working practice and how a signalling system should work? Is there a set of conidtions under which a train approaching an occuplied block should slow, and maybe stop until the section ahead is clear?

I am not a railroader, nor am I even a rail-fan. I am an engineer who loves to make things that work - hence the DCC system and the vehicle location system. Do you think their would be a commercial market for the location system and the localised control system?

John

[Anonymous]

To George P.:

The primary intent of this topic is for the opinion of consumers on new products that could be useful on the model railroad market. You may have mis-understood me. However, you did list some general practices that I feel all companies should follow. At MPLX ELECTRONICS SYSTEMS, we practice these customer service principles.

To John:

It is good that you have a daughter interested in trains. I hope she follows rail-fanning throughout her life. You did pose the question about signaling practices. I am not the best in those standards; however, we have a fellow who is. Signaling can become complex depending upon your layout and railroad. He could probably help you out better than I can on the signaling standards. I'll run this by him. On another note, you did pose another question on the location system and the control system. I want you to contact me personally at [e-mail] and we can discuss this more.

I have seen some interesting ideas here. I am always curious about what will come next, so sound off!

Sincerely,
J. Price

[Anonymous]

CHEAPER PRODUCTS!!!!!!!!!!! thats pretty much my concern, cause teens like myself are becoming more and more interested in modelrailroading, and our numbers are growing everyday, but alot of us cant afford, or it takes us an extremely looong time to get the money to get what we need. also maby, some sort of line of dcc and other electronics, but dubbed down, so it has a cheaper price, cause you know how right now, the zephyer, digitrax's simpilist system runs 10 trains, but i dont need 10 trains, im mostly goin to be running my layout by myself, which im shure lots of other teen modelers have the same problem, but im not goin to be running anywhere near 10 trains, i will most likely rarely run more than 2, if that. and i dont need all of the power that you need to run a full walkaround basement.

just thought id give some prespective from us teens
Andrew

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mptrains
what electronics products you would like to see on the market that would greatly improve your modeling.

1. DCC transponders that are small/cheap enough I can put one on every wheel axle.
or
a DCC interfaced bar code reader to read the cars on a train that goes by an inspection point.
or
a DCC interfaced RFS system to sense where cars are on the layout.
2. A tiny voltage regulator that remains fairly cool and produces a constant 1.3V output from a 12-18V input reguardless (within reason) of the current draw of the light bulb.
or 1.5V light bulbs with built in resistors to work on 12-18V.
3. A luminescent tape that changes color to make control panels that show the routing of the trains.
4. A ExpressNet to LocoNet conversion/bridge/router unit.
5. A Wireless throttle system (like CVP's) that isn't limited to 8 throttles.
6. A DCC decoder that has a forced air smoke unit for diesels. (side note not electronic but we need black smoke).
7. I did want programable sound units (but it sounds like bunchs of those are right on the edge of hitting the market), so I want a throttle that has a playable whistle lever (not stupid digital buttons).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by prr67

the zephyer, digitrax's simpilist system runs 10 trains, but i dont need 10 trains, im mostly goin to be running my layout by myself, which im shure lots of other teen modelers have the same problem, but im not goin to be running anywhere near 10 trains, i will most likely rarely run more than 2, if that. and i dont need all of the power that you need to run a full walkaround basement.

Good points Andrew. So you should be a good candidate for the NCC PoerCAB when it comes out. I got a message fomr NCC yesterday that it is now due early November - fully self contained handles 1.5A as I recall, so 2 trains and can be expanded later.

John

[claycts]

To Mr. Price.
The wish list is starting, BUT if the prices do not get down we will LOSE the future of the hobby the teens. My one thing I want is someone to take what is out there NOW and make it better AND lower the price. Many years ago when my company 1st started 1963, we sold our no1 product Rejuvinator Oil for $24.00 a quart, we sell it today for $40.00 a quart. With the price of electronics comeing down, that is waht allows us to have faster computers remember, then why is the price of electronics for a HOBBY going UP?
Make the list that TEXAS has better and cheaper and you will make a fortune in volume, I did and I am.
George P.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by claycts

To Mr. Price.
The wish list is starting, BUT if the prices do not get down we will LOSE the future of the hobby the teens. My one thing I want is someone to take what is out there NOW and make it better AND lower the price. Many years ago when my company 1st started 1963, we sold our no1 product Rejuvinator Oil for $24.00 a quart, we sell it today for $40.00 a quart. With the price of electronics comeing down, that is waht allows us to have faster computers remember, then why is the price of electronics for a HOBBY going UP?
Make the list that TEXAS has better and cheaper and you will make a fortune in volume, I did and I am.
George P.

Hey George,

You got me going here now. I have been designing electronics since 1968, my first product went into production that year. It was a simple timer for hospital autoclaves and sold at the time for $179. It offered four fixed times. The latest version sells for $99 and is keypad programmable in 1 second increments to 4 hours, can be connected to a network, or remotely controlled with options. $179 in 1968/9 and nobody raised an eyebrow. $99 today and everybody ***es about the price.

In 1969 the cost of the components was about $6.50, the metal enclosure was about $13. We would build 100 at a time using 3 assembly workers doing everything manually. Total investment in plant was about $500 for soldering iron, PCB handling jigs and a few hand tools.

Today the components cost is $11.20, the metal enclosure (almost identical to the 1969 version) is $7.22 BUT - we have to buy in lots of around 2000 to get those prices. Some things like resistors we buy 10,000 per value because they come in reels of that quantity. So we have 2000 at a time built by a set of machines that are worth about $75,000. The net result? With regulatory approvals costing $120 in 1969 but $35,000 two years ago, insurance premiums that read like telephone numbers nowadays because it is a product sold into the medical industry. Unless I can raise the price to $129 I am going to drop it next year after our current order committment is filled.

Electronics is cheap if you build enough of it at once. To be honest, I look at the prices of things like DCC decoders and I really dont know how Lenz, NCE or others make a reasonable profit at it. Especially when you consider the level of technology they are offering and the costs of developing it. The amortized R&D cost of a DCC decoder is probably around $2 per unit if you are building 10,000 pieces per year. Component cost around $4. Add assembly, overheads, marketing etc. With an off the line cost of possibly $7-8 this product should sell for $39.95. So is it expensive when I see it for $13.65 at Tonys Trains? Nope, its an insane bargain, especially when it is 100% made in the USA!

If it were a piece of consumer electronics designed ot have a lifetime of about 2 years, made in China at the rate of 20 or 30, maybe even 40,000 per month, with no after-sales support, no spare parts and sold in the local supermarket then $13.65 would seem reasonable. The price of computers comes down because they are built in ever larger quantities, are designed to not be repaired, and to be replaced every two years. If you want a REAL computer that CAN be repaired, will last for 10 years, can be upgraded and is well documented (i.e. isnt a cheap clone running Windows) then it is still going to cost you some dollars, not $299 in Wal Mart.

OK, I am off my soap-box now!

John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jdtoronto

QUOTE: Originally posted by prr67

the zephyer, digitrax's simpilist system runs 10 trains, but i dont need 10 trains, im mostly goin to be running my layout by myself, which im shure lots of other teen modelers have the same problem, but im not goin to be running anywhere near 10 trains, i will most likely rarely run more than 2, if that. and i dont need all of the power that you need to run a full walkaround basement.

Good points Andrew. So you should be a good candidate for the NCC PoerCAB when it comes out. I got a message fomr NCC yesterday that it is now due early November - fully self contained handles 1.5A as I recall, so 2 trains and can be expanded later.

John

Thanks john, and could you give me a link to their website please? couldnt find one, the only dcc system i really have any knolage about is digitrax

Thanks

[claycts]

Mr Price, we have an agreement to disagree.
I wish you well in your venture.
George P.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by prr67

QUOTE: Originally posted by jdtoronto

QUOTE: Originally posted by prr67

the zephyer, digitrax's simpilist system runs 10 trains, but i dont need 10 trains, im mostly goin to be running my layout by myself, which im shure lots of other teen modelers have the same problem, but im not goin to be running anywhere near 10 trains, i will most likely rarely run more than 2, if that. and i dont need all of the power that you need to run a full walkaround basement.

Good points Andrew. So you should be a good candidate for the NCC PoerCAB when it comes out. I got a message fomr NCC yesterday that it is now due early November - fully self contained handles 1.5A as I recall, so 2 trains and can be expanded later.

John

Thanks john, and could you give me a link to their website please? couldnt find one, the only dcc system i really have any knolage about is digitrax

Thanks

http://www.ncedcc.com

..john

[Anonymous]

any idea on the cost?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by prr67

any idea on the cost?

Sorry, I should have said, it is expected to be $179 according to everything I have seen and the discussions I had with the guys at NCE. Making it excellent value.

I plan to get one for my daughters layout, roughly 30" x 7ft N scale layout with 2 trains. Her loco's both have DCC installed but are running on DC at the moment.

John

[wjstix]

In general, a way to do realistic (as much as possible) signalling without breaking the bank or being an electronics genius. Particularly a simple effective way to detect when a block is occupied thru some type of light sensors or something that wouldn't require a big expense to install and/or modifications to rolling stock.

[Anonymous]

To username wjstix:

In reference to your response about a device that is simple and will monitor blocks and give an output that can be used for signalling purposes, MPLX ELECTRONICS SYSTEMS alredy manufactures a device for that. It is called the DETECT I GP BLOCK DETECTOR. It can be used in the non-invasive application you posted and the MSRP is $15.95.

Sincerely,
J. Price

[joeh19012]

I'm not a novice in the hobby, but I am when it comes to DCC.

I would like to see a DCC decoder (for locos) with transponding capabilities and a simpler and smaller encodable transponder for individual rail cars. The DCC network would be able to read the transponder information and then return the relative location of the rail car or loco to a computer. Trains could be set to run automatically (e.g. through freights, interurban passenger trains, local freights with fixed stops, commuter rail trains, etc.) while switching operations, unit trains, or other deliveries are made under control of a wireless throttle. Traffic could be controlled with automated signalling, all controlled over the network and computer interface. The computer interface would also create a schematic of the layout based on power districts and controlled sections, and would have various signalling schemes available, depending upon the signal heads (2 light, 3 light, semaphore, etc.).

Furthermore, encoded transponder information should be available on demand at the throttle, particularly for locomotives.

How's that for some ideas?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joeh19012

I'm not a novice in the hobby, but I am when it comes to DCC.

Well, for me it is the other way around. I have been designing electronics for model railroads over about 30 years. This has mainly been for friends or clients (I do a lot of electronics contract design). But it is only the last 12-18 months I have actually done any modelling. Now I am hooked.

QUOTE: I would like to see a DCC decoder (for locos) with transponding capabilities

Wouldn't we all! When DCC was formalised with the NMRA standards starting in the late 80's and resulting in the standards first promulgated in 1994, no thought was given to transponding. With very little change the system used by Marklin and originating from Lenz Elektronik was adopted. For the state of the technology in the late 80's or early 90's the system wasn't bad, not real good, but not bad. It has a series of reasonably serious flaws however that have really become apparent as designers try to get around the inherent limitations of the system as technology has advanced, here are the two most significant

• The packet based transmission of data is very good, but it is a forward chanell system only - there is no acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the transmission.
• Many features of the system (the CV's basically) are optional. But there is no way to 'discover' the capabilies of a decoder, you need to have the manufacturers documentation to do anything.

Their are decoders available that support basic transponding functions. But right now it is not widely supported.

QUOTE:
and a simpler and smaller encodable transponder for individual rail cars. The DCC network would be able to read the transponder information and then return the relative location of the rail car or loco to a computer.

So we need to add some sort of location information. A micro-GPS receiver in each car maybe? No, what we need is to provide some external form of location system. Using the current system we could split the track into blocks and when a unit responds we could tell where it is. Of course this requires a booster/receiver for each block and a return to the days of block wiring. Not really clever.

So expect to see passive location systems announced soon. They will be totally independent of the DCC system with purely an interface to a cab bus or similar. But of course, each manufacturer has his own ideas on cab busses, external control and computer interfacing. So don't expect to see a universal system any time soon.

QUOTE:
Trains could be set to run automatically (e.g. through freights, interurban passenger trains, local freights with fixed stops, commuter rail trains, etc.) while switching operations, unit trains, or other deliveries are made under control of a wireless throttle. Traffic could be controlled with automated signalling, all controlled over the network and computer interface. The computer interface would also create a schematic of the layout based on power districts and controlled sections, and would have various signalling schemes available, depending upon the signal heads (2 light, 3 light, semaphore, etc.).

Furthermore, encoded transponder information should be available on demand at the throttle, particularly for locomotives.

How's that for some ideas?

What you are asking for is something that many of us would like. The last changes to the NMRA's standards and RP's for DCC were made in 2003 and promulgated in 2004. Since that time the public at large doesn't even know what has been discussed by the DCC working group. The last three meetings have not even had minutes published and the draft copies of various discussions on the dcc.info website seem to be infrequenctly updated, if at all.

Signalling is another issue altogether. To work properly signalling and command/control need to be tightly integrated, preferably with vehicle location.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have all of this. I don't want the layout to be totally automatic, but, for example, we need feedback to the cab so the operator knows what signal he is facing. Then he can act accordingly.

Either some designers will find ways to work around the shortcomings of DCC and the DCC process, or we will see a second generation DCC evolve which will possibly be able to support 1st generation (NMRA DCC) but with lots of added capability.

John