second guessing?

[Anonymous]

im beginning to second guess my mainline engine choice, i've narrowed it town to a 4-6-6-4 union pacific challenger, a southern pacific daylight, or a 4-8-4
northern type. if by any chance i could get some price ranges, and i want to model in the 1940's.. one of the war periods... . so any help would be appreciated ..thanks alot guys..
joe

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger

im beginning to second guess my mainline engine choice, i've narrowed it town to a 4-6-6-4 union pacific challenger, a southern pacific daylight, or a 4-8-4
northern type. if by any chance i could get some price ranges, and i want to model in the 1940's or 1960's.. one of the war periods...i think im leaning more towards the 1960s. since i have more of a steam engine choice i think...so any help would be appreciated

The 1940's would give you the most steam classes, but even then the railroads were buying them only because the war prevented them from purchasing the diesels. Most all the steam power (other than a few units held back for excursions) was gone by the 1960's. Even the N&W was officially dieselized by 1958. I believe a few short lines still ran 4-6-0 Petticoat Junction type operations into the early 1960s.

Seems to me your choice should be dictated by which railroad you would prefer to model. UP for the Challenger (of course NP was also big into the Challengers class), but for 4-8-4's you have lots of choices. As you said SP but also NP, AT&SF, RI (had the most of that class), GN, CB&Q, D&RGW, etc etc. Sorry I sort of ignored the eastern roads....

[selector]

We need to know what your interests are. Why "big" steam, and what do YOU feel is big steam? Why not get started with a wonderul smaller loco, like the Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation, and work your way up to extend your excitement and growth over time?

All of your choices are fine, although the bigger locomotives dislike smaller curves. What are your curve radii at the moment, especially the smallest if you have a range? If you are limited to 18", you will have many problems keeping them on the rails. I believe the Challengers and Northerns are recommended to be placed on 22" curves. The Lionel Challenger will supposedly negotiate 18" curves, but I think that is baloney. Mine barely manages my 22" curves, although that may say more about my track laying skills than anything.

Hudsons were 'big' locos, as were Berkshires and heavy Mountains. Mid-range were the lighter Mikados, Mountains, heavy Consolidations, Atlantics, and so on. Small locos included the lighter Consolidations, Americans, Moguls, Pairies, and the various non-articulated tank and switch engines.

Do you have a plan, a long-range plan, of acquiring locomotives? This might dictate how you approach your track requirements. But, looking at it from the other way is better. What track plan are you constrained to have? The curves on that pike will tell you what type of loco you can get away with.

Now, I like big steam, too. But I did one thing right when I built my layout. I tested my biggest loco (yes, I did things backwards by getting the loco first), and found that I had to have 22" radii. Luckily, my next big engine, the Challenger, works okay (just okay) on those curves.

Whew!

[Texas Zepher]

Looks like you were editing your original post while I was replying[:)] But now I'll acutally answer the question. You didn't specify scale so I am assuming HO, and ignoring brass.

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger
4-6-6-4 union pacific challenger,

Bowser - $182 Kit
Rivarossi - $184
Lionel - $550
http://www.modeltrains.com/PICTURES/PICTURES%20-%20Non-brass-1/Lionel/434-658007-1.JPG
Athearn - $259

QUOTE:
a southern pacific daylight

Bachman makes one of these in their "plus" series. $85
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/Description.cfm?sku=016011301

QUOTE: 4-8-4

Once again Bachmann $77 here is a NYC they also make a N&W J.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/Description.cfm?sku=016011306
Broadway Limited - AT&SF 37xx class. It is about $275. and N&W J for $317
Precision Craft Models - T1 $339 http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/Description.cfm?sku=0588589

Sort of like comparing apples and oranges. Some of these are old designs, Kit vs RTR, modern mechanisms, some have sound/DCC, etc. It is pretty easy to research on the internet though. Just type "HO 4-6-6-4" and one gets all sorts of hits.

[Anonymous]

i can pull off the 22" curves, but see that daylight and that 4-8-4 northern typer are pretty impressive looking. so i think i might lay off the challenger for awhile like u suggested, and go with a much cheaper and just as nice looking, and little easier to work with daylight or northern... i love big steam because it just reminds me of the past i was never able to have, im only 16 and would love to make the big steam happen again in my eyes, i already have plenty of small steamers, like moguls, 0-4-0;s and plenty of switchers..i would just love to make the big steam happen for me..
thanx guys i really appreciate it, now one more question......what radius do u think the daylight and northern would take?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger (grammar slightly corrected)
I can pull off the 22" curves, but see that daylight and that 4-8-4 northern typer are pretty impressive looking. I think I might lay off the challenger for awhile like you suggested,... Now one more question......what radius do you think the daylight and northern would take?

Actually I would guess the Challenger could run on a tigher radius than the Northerns. Well at least that is true in real life. This is because the Northerns have 8 wheels in a fixed frame. The Challengers have only 6. the front 6 driving wheels are articulated to follow the curve of the track.

I know most of the specific models I mentioned above will run on 22" radius curves. Many of them on 18". This is because on the models the driving wheels will be blind (no flanges) and are allowed to slop back and forth laterally in the frame. This gives them great flexibility for the tiny curves we use in model railroads. Several of the Challengers (Rivarossi, Athearn) also have the rear six driving wheels pivioting (something the real ones can't do). How they look is a different matter. That boiler on the Challenger will really hang out over the outside of the track.

There is also the matter of running on a specific radius, and running well..... These big locomotives might be impressive, but a heavy 2-8-2 Mikado (eg. Great Northern O-8 class) can be impressive as well and would fit your curves better.

[Anonymous]

texas..thanx.. this i understand about the challenger being articulated, also another thing with the northern and daylight is that they don't have sound, which isn't a big deal to me, its all good.. but yea i wonder if the challenger would be able to have a tighter radius on the rails instead of the 4-8-4's. its a mystery[?]

[selector]

It depends on what the manufacturer recommends. My BLI Hudson is claimed to be able to run on 18" radii, but I found that it derailed far too often. I admit, this might be an indication of my poor track, and not the Hudson's problem at all. However, when I switched to 22" radii, my poor track improved very quickly...if you catch my drift [;)].

The Lionel Challenger is claimed to be able to run on 18" curves, and since I have not tested thusly, I can't challenge that assertion. What I can tell you is that I am deeply grateful I was forced, early, to adopt 22" curves.

The Broadway NYC S1-b and the AT&SF Class 4-8-4, and the N&W J are all rated for 22" radii. I'm willing to bet that they will do better on 26", but I cannot say from experience...it's just a hunch.

So, to get quick about this, consult the claims of the various manufacturers and see what they say. If you were to ask me what I think, I'd say add 4" of radius to their minima, and you'd be trouble-free.

[;)]

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger

i can pull off the 22" curves, but see that daylight and that 4-8-4 northern typer are pretty impressive looking. so i think i might lay off the challenger for awhile like u suggested, and go with a much cheaper and just as nice looking, and little easier to work with daylight or northern... i love big steam because it just reminds me of the past i was never able to have, im only 16 and would love to make the big steam happen again in my eyes, i already have plenty of small steamers, like moguls, 0-4-0;s and plenty of switchers..i would just love to make the big steam happen for me..
thanx guys i really appreciate it, now one more question......what radius do u think the daylight and northern would take?

The SP Daylight IS a 4-8-4.. The Bachman versions of these locos (SP GS-4, NYC Niagra, N&W J1) will run on a 22 inch radius, 18 is a bit tight. The Rivarossi Challanger will probably also negotiate a 22 and maybe even an 18.. I have doubts the Athearn Genesis version would but I could be wrong about that. The problem isn't necassarily going to be the curve itself but what is next to it.. Clearance. All of these locos will hang over the rails quite a bit on tighter curves.. If you are set on having an articulated, Don't overlook the Heritage 2-8-8-2 (Lifelike proto 2000)... I don't know what your train budget looks like (don't need to either), some of these can get pretty pricey..

Jeff
[:D]

[Anonymous]

well which do u guys think would be less harder to deal with, and as for it hanging over the track..i have a really good roadbed, im hoping that will keep it balanced, should i go for the challenger, or the daylight?

[oleirish]

My Rivarossi Y6B (2-8-8-2)will run on my 18" curves ok but is not true Articulated,I have three 2-8-2's mikes,they all run ok on 18" curves.Would probley look better on 22" or larger curves.Don't over look the 2-6-0 MOGAL good loco.
JIM

[selector]

By over hanging the inside of curves, or by the pilot overhanging on the outside of curves, you run the risk of sideswiping other trains or trackside objects. That is what he means by clearances, not a balancing problem. However, because of the false articulation of those models (making the rear engine also articulate (pivot), something the real engines did not do), you actually get pretty close tracking, and I have not found overhang to be a problem. In fact, some modelers will discourage the practice of placing tunnel portals over curves for the reason that large locos and long passenger cars could get hung-up. Well, I have portals over my curves, and have successfully run my Challenger through them without any alteration. It is tight, but doable. So, I repeat that the overhang issue is not likely to be a problem unless you "crowd" the track with things.

You seem to insist that we provide you with the answer to your question of which engine to get. Sorry, but I will not provide that answer. YOU must continue to inform yourself, and to make the best choice for you based on what you learn. I will continue to address related questions to help you to make YOUR choice, but I won't tell you which loco to purchase.

It's one of the rules of model railroading; you make the choices, the rules, and the changes if you are proven wrong.

Respectfully-

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger{grammar and typing slightly corrected}
Well which do you guys think would be less harder to deal with, and as for it hanging over the track..I have a really good roadbed, I'm hoping that will keep it balanced, should I go for the challenger, or the daylight?

The issue isn't really balance but track side clearance....

From a strickly economical view point, it would be cheaper to get the Daylight 4-8-4. Then if you found it didn't work as you needed you would not be out as much money. On the other hand it will not have as much value if you want to sell it. So my true recommendation would be to try to find one of the Bachmann Daylight units used somewhere. I would think you could get one for around $40. If you don't like it you could probably sell it for about the same amount to apply to another loco.

[Anonymous]

thats good i think, i sure hope schaffers sells one, i was on EBAY, they had a dayliight on there but it was 50$ shipping!

[selector]

Waaaay too much shipping. I would advise you to move on.

[dgwinup]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector


You seem to insist that we provide you with the answer to your question of which engine to get. Sorry, but I will not provide that answer. YOU must continue to inform yourself, and to make the best choice for you based on what you learn. I will continue to address related questions to help you to make YOUR choice, but I won't tell you which loco to purchase.

It's one of the rules of model railroading; you make the choices, the rules, and the changes if you are proven wrong.

Respectfully-

Crandell makes a good point. WE can't make the decision for you! Whatever you decide, YOU are the one that has to live with the decision, not any of us!

That being said, I see you keep coming back to the Challenger. The 4-8-4's are nice engines, and Texas Zephyr has good advice. Buy used, see if you like it. If not, re-sell it and apply the money elsewhere. But since you keep bringing up the Challenger, I can't help wondering if that isn't what you really want in the first place! If you have the money for it, and you really seem to want the Challenger, then go for it. They are beautiful engines and should work well on your layout if you don't have any sharp curves.

But it is still you decision! I don't see you making a mistake with a choice of any of the engines you've listed.

Darrell, buiet...for now

[Anonymous]

yes i realize the decision is mine, im jsut scared of m,amking the wrong one....the only issue i have with the challenger is the price other than that it is beautiful, but i was just hoping for opinions, not reallyt a tru definite answer, ive been doing model railroading since i was 9, still alot for me to learn haha, but iappreciate the help and input u guys bring into the situation..

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4664challenger

yes i realize the decision is mine, im jsut scared of m,amking the wrong one....the only issue i have with the challenger is the price other than that it is beautiful, but i was just hoping for opinions, not reallyt a tru definite answer, ive been doing model railroading since i was 9, still alot for me to learn haha, but iappreciate the help and input u guys bring into the situation..

im sorry guys if i made it seem compltely like ur decision, i know the fun of the hobby is individuality, so please accept my apologies for inconivince , im just trying to learn as much as i can at a young age..thanx all.

[Anonymous]

Since you already have several smaller steamers I have to ask what railroad you model? Do you model Union Pacific? If so, the challenger would fit right in, but there's also some UP 4-8-4 stuff out there as well. I have personally photographed and chaised both of UPs preserved steamers and I'd say the 4-8-4 is an awesome locomotive. So is the challenger. If you really like Southern Pacific the Daylight 4-8-4 is a good choice, but remember, it is a PASSENGER locomotive. A lot of railroads used their 4-8-4s in passenger service. If you're a freight buff, maybe some of the other locos mentioned would be a good choice. Lots of decisions, I know.

[Anonymous]

tru tru...i have decided to choose the challenger, i model the union pacific of course, its my favorite railway.. i looked on ebay as some of u mentiond, my god i can save up to 200$ on a decent challenger, and im currently bidding on two of them right now.. they're both riverossi's. both very nice looking and run good. i want to thank you guys for the recommendation of using ebay i appreciate it greatly.

[oleirish]

My[2c]I try to plan my tunnel portals for my longest car,And have been known to use doubble portal on curves,And just fit them,buildings , trees and such can be planed in to an lay out,As far as what loco you want I would think you must make your own choice.
Jim