newbie to N-scale looking for advice

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

This is my first post and my first try at N-scale. I am going to build a 30"x72" table layout (#9 in the Atlas N-scale book #1) that I can keep at home and transport once a month to church for our train club we have started. (trying to get more kids interested in the hobby)

I have a bunch of Atlas flex track and a few Atlas remote switches. After reading some info on the web I have heard people complaining about the Atlas snap switches and how they don't always close all the way and cause derailments with N-scale. Many suggest using Peko switches and under table switch machines. so, I am giving that some thought and counting my pennies to see if I can afford to go this route.

I would love some advice from experienced N-scalers about switches and switch machines. I am willing to pay more to avoid headaches, so if I need to go to another kind of track and switch I will. However, if the atlas stuff works good and is reliable, then I will stick with that since I have a headstart on what I will need.

I plan on using DC so if I were to use Peko which switch would I need? Again, my primary goal is for reliable operation of the layout.

This layout needs to be mobile. I will transport it monthly. When considering bench work I was thinking about using 1x4's with supports every 14" and 1/2" plywood for the top; 2x2 legs with leveling capability. I read on some of the posts here about foam table tops. Is that durable? I like the idea of light weight, but durability would also be an issue.

Ok, sorry for the long post. Any suggestions from you experienced guys to get me started would be appreciated.[:)]

Thanks for your help!

[dgwinup]

Okay, here's a few suggestions:

One: If you can, increase the width from 30" to 32" or 36". It will give you more leeway in your trackplan without significantly adding to the total weight. Build a frame from 1x3 instead of 1x4. Larger lumber won't increase strength by that much and it weighs more. Divide the frame longways down the middle with another 1x3 rail, then install stringer crossmembers about every 16" on both sides of the middle rail. You can use 1x2 for the stringers. If you use different depths of lumber, make sure that one edge is flat around the entire frame and stringers. Ditch the plywood. Buy a sheet of 2" blue or pink insulation foam board and cut and glue a piece directly to the flat side of the frame using Liquid Nails especially formulated for foam use. Regular Liquid Nails will melt the foam! If you want, you can pre-drill and CAREFULLY screw the foam to the perimeter of the frame using 3" or 3 1/2" drywall screws. Don't drive them in too fast because they will go right through the foam and possibly split the frame. Just drive them slightly below the surface of the foam. Left over foam can be cut to fit for scenery layers, glued with the same Liquid Nails. It is easy to cut and shape and takes paint and plaster scenery well.

Two: You can save up your money to buy Peco products. The turnout motors are a little more involved in installation and the turnout points really snap and hold to the rails. Since you already have the Atlas turnouts with machines, I'd use them, but do a little work on them. First, carefully file the inside of the points rails to a good sharp edge and file off the very top of the tip of the point and file it back to make a smooth transition from your stock rails. You may also put a very tiny nick in the stock rails if there isn't one there already. Set up a little test area with a power pack and a small engine (a steam engine drawing power from both engine and tender is ideal) or 12 volt test lamp (or a DC meter for more accuracy). Apply power to the turnout from the points end and check for voltage all the way up the point rails and past the frog (or check that your engine doesn't stall going through the turnout from any direction). If there is any loss of power, or your meter shows a drop in voltage, (or your engine stalls), you may need to solder some short feeder wires underneath the turnout from the stock rails to the rails just past the frog. This sounds like a lot of work, but there isn't a great cost involved in it, mostly just time. Someone told me you can mount Atlas switch machines upside down to give the layout a better look. You have to swap machines from right and left turnouts to mount them upside down. I haven't tried this, so I can't tell you more than that.

Three: solder your flex track at least every other joint and use additional power feeders at least every second section. When bending flex track, make sure the movable rail is on the inside of the curve. Don't forget to plan on insulated rails if you are staying with DC. Even with DCC, you will probably want some insulated sections anyway, so why not just do it from the start. Not easy to do after everything is glued and nailed down and it can be converted to DCC at a later date. You may not want to solder the turnouts in place. Even the best turnouts occassionally (although rarely) go bad and they are easier to replace if they are not soldered.

Sub-note for Peco: For DC, either Insul-frog or Electro-frog is acceptable. From what I hear, Insul-frog is better for DCC, but I may be wrong. If so, someone will correct me shortly. Insul-frog pulls power from the stock rails so only the route selected will receive power. Electro-frogs are like Atlas: power is available on both sides of the frog on either route.

Four: Legs. Consider making some folding, portable sawhorses out of 2x2 and 1x3 lumber. Look on the This Old House website (TOH.org?) for some plans on building your own sawhorses. Screw some hook eyes on the bottom of the layout frame so you can use bungee cords to hold the sawhorses to the bottom of the layout when transporting or storing. A few extra hook eyes in appropriate places will also allow you to bingee the layout to the top of the sawhorses when set up. You will probably want to put leveling screws on the bottom of the legs to help accommodate those areas that are less than perfectly level no matter where you go.

Now THAT was a long post. Other forum members will also be adding suggestions. None of us are all right and none of us are all wrong, we just have different opinions. Experiment and use whatever methods you are comfortable with and that give you the results you want.

Most of all, Have FUN!!

Darrell, out of breath, but quiet...for now

[dgwinup]

By the way, pastornick (Pastor Nick? Love it!), welcome to the wonderful world of model railroading.

Feel free to e-mail me for any clarifications you need and definitely keep posting on this forum and let us know how things are progressing.

Darrell, reverently quiet...for now

[Anonymous]

Thanks Darrell for all the tips and taking the time to help this newbie to N-scale out.

One question, how does the styro hold up. Does it dinge easily? I do have a small concern that it will damage easily during transport or in the setting up and tearing down. Also does it take paint well? Is there a special kind of paint to use?

Thanks again

[skiloff]

Well, I'll throw my two cents in on foam. Its not beaded styrofoam you want to use, but the INSULATION foam board (pink or blue) you get at places like Home Depot. You may have understood that, but I just wanted to be clear. You can use plain old latex paint on the foam and it adheres very well. The foam does ding fairly easily, but once you have it scenicked, it shouldn't be a problem. Even before, its just going to get covered up by the scenery. Now the edges of the foam if you bump into a door or something may get dinged, but putting a fascia on it will prevent that, and really, it won't matter much if it did. I made a 2' x 5' diorama for my son a couple years ago to take to his preschool class and all I used was the foam board - no wood base or anything and I never got a mark on it. I also just finished building the first piece of my new N scale layout (a 3'x6' section - only slightly larger than your plan) using 1x3 with a foam top - no plywood - and my now 6 year old son can carry that almost unassisted (he needs help balancing it). For a layout you want to move, the lighter the weight, the easier to move, the less likely you'll bang it into something. I highly recommend the foam, if you didn't get that from my rant already. [:D] Good luck and keep asking questions!

[Anonymous]

OK now I have to play devils advocate... Expanded foam is great for building a layout for many reasons but there is one serious drawback that you have to know about before using it especially if you are going to take it into a public area like a church. It BURNS. It burns easy and fast and puts out toxic fumes when it does. It is only allowed in buildings as insulation because it is encased inside less dangerous materials, drywall and exterior sheathing. Check local regulations and with your insurance before using it in a layout that is intended to be taken to your church. I am not anti-foam. I have it on my home layout but I am aware of the dangers and I am not inviting the public in.

The dimensions want sound about perfect for a hollow door base. Why put legs on it at all? I am sure your church and your home have a table that would support the weight. Take 2X2's the width of your door, put T nuts and adjusting bolts on each end and attach to the underside of the layout and you could level the layout on any reasonably level table. Keep any wiring under the layout neat and secured so it does not snag when moving.

If the snap throws on the turnouts prove to be a problem I would go with Caboose hand throws. I am a firm believer in KISS. Keep it simple silly. They also give opportunities for hands on participation around the layout and are much less expensive than remote switch machines.

[Anonymous]

I have a 4x7 layout I made completely out of foam, under braces and everything.... When I built it I was living in a small apartment and I needed something light enough to move around, when it was setup it was on my kitchen table.... When using foam and especially if it's going to be carted around you really want to put a fascia around the edges to protect the foam... It could be 1/4" plywood glues around the edges or even cheap molding... It really won't add much to the weight either....

[skiloff]

That is a good point, bukwrm.

[egmurphy]

I'll second the suggestion of putting it on a hollow core wood door, especially if it's going to be moved regularly. They're very light but very stiff.

You can make legs out of 2x2's, but be sure to use cross bracing in both directions. You might be ahead if you can find a set of metal folding table legs to attach under the door.

Regards

Ed

[Tom Bryant_MR]

QUOTE: I have a bunch of Atlas flex track and a few Atlas remote switches. After reading some info on the web I have heard people complaining about the Atlas snap switches and how they don't always close all the way and cause derailments with N-scale.

Started in Jan building a 4 x 5 N scale layout from Book #7: Nine N Scale Layouts Step by Step Railroads with around 15 or so Atlas snap switches.

They are not powered yet but have not had any problems. dgwinup has pointed out the best practices when it comes to turnout maintenance [^]

And welcome !

[Wdlgln005]

Since you are talking about a portable layout, I suggest you get into Ntrak. Their 30yr experience in doing modules shows the best practices. Perhaps your church could host an event! Most Nscalers would love to be able to fill a dry, level surface! For $9.00, it will be money well spent & put you in contact with an experienced group of Nscalers!

Benchwork relies on a 1x4 frame supported by 2x2 legs with a Tnut for leveling. Some Ntrakers have found that 20' legs can easily be viewed by little kids, no picking them up so they can see. You can fashion a 20" extender to bring the tabletop up to 40". modules run 4 to 6 ft long by 24' wide. THey are easily transported by any van. Modules are designed to put another modue at each end to expand the layout. If the church has some storage, you may decide to build & store the corner modules & transport the straights.

Trackwork relies on Atlas Code 80 flex & turnouts. You can save some money by using some manual turnouts.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your help. Lots of good suggestions and advice.

[Anonymous]

A clarification on foam burning.

It only burns when in contact with a high heat source. Remove the heat source and it stops burning. In other words, it doesn't keep burning once ignited like wood, paper, etc.

That's a significant difference.

Mike Tennent

[chateauricher]

When planning my N-scale layout, I had originally intended to use Peco turn-outs and motors; however, my LHS owner pointed out a design flaw with them that I was not willing to deal with.

If you look closely at the frog of a Peco turn-out, you will notice a large gap. This gap is large enough to cause your locos and cars to "bump", and even to derail. To solve this problem, many people put a small plastic/styrene shim so that the wheels don't drop into the hole as much. Considering the size of an N-scale turn-out's frog, I said "no, thanks" to Peco. From reading about turn-outs on this forum and in MR magazine, I learned that a lot of modelers resort to removing the spring from Peco turn-outs to eliminate the "snap" and allow for a smoother movement. (Begs the question "why pay for it if you're only going to remove it ?" [%-)] )

The Atlas turn-outs, on the other hand, have a much "tighter" frog which does not have the same problem. Also, their frogs can easily be wired for power-routing or left unpowered.

On the down-side, by now going with Atlas turnouts, I had to redesign portions of the layout to eliminate the curved turnouts I had originally wanted to use. (Atlas doesn't make N-scale curved turn-outs.) Fortunately, redesigning the layout was a fairly simple exercise and resulted in something a bit more interesting in terms of operations as well.

On the up-side, an Atlas turnout and motor together will each cost me about $10-12 CDN less than a comparable Peco set-up. Considering I have more than two dozen turnouts, that means a savings of over $240. [:)]

If you get a chance, go to your LHS and carefully (and I mean carefully) look at turnouts from the different manufacturers and talk to the people there to get their opinions before you start designing the layout or investing money in parts. I know I'm glad I did.

[dgwinup]

chateauricher,

Sounds like you are firmly in the Atlas camp. I like the Atlas turnouts. They are relatively inexpensive and work well (even better if you do some extra work on them). The downside is the switch machine hanging on the side. Detracts from the appearance. I can and do live with that because the turnouts are reliable. I was not aware that Atlas turnouts could be wired for power routing. All of mine are powered on all routes unless I use insulated rail joiners.

I do like the Peco turnouts, though. They have a more realistic appearance than the Atlas and NO switch motor hanging off the side! I had not noticed the larger flangeway at the frog, and I've never had any problems with the Pecos that I have used. The spring wire that provides the 'snap' keeps the points firmly against the stock rails, something that the Atlas turnouts sometimes have a problem with. You only need to remove the spring if you are going to use slow-motion switch motors like Tortoise to get that 'realistic' slow points motion, and even then, it's not necessary. The slow-mo machines will work with the spring still installed.

It all still comes down to personal choice, I guess. I like both turnouts and for different reasons. It's smart on your part to check out parts before you spend a ton of money on them.

Darrell, quiet...for now

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dgwinup
Sounds like you are firmly in the Atlas camp.

I did prefer the Peco turnouts; until I got to compare them with the Atlas ones side-by-side.

QUOTE: I like the Atlas turnouts. They are relatively inexpensive and work well (even better if you do some extra work on them). The downside is the switch machine hanging on the side. Detracts from the appearance. I can and do live with that because the turnouts are reliable.

Atlas does make turnouts without the side-mounted machines; designed for under-mounted ones. Atlas also makes a very slim under-mount machine. So you can use Atlas and get the look of a prototypical turnout (ie: with the machine hidden underneath).

QUOTE: I was not aware that Atlas turnouts could be wired for power routing. All of mine are powered on all routes unless I use insulated rail joiners.

I think it is only the newer Atlas turnouts that have a small metal ring at the end of a tie opposite the frog for connecting to the switch-machine for a power-routing frog. If you leave the ring unconnected, the frog remains dead.

QUOTE: (...) I had not noticed the larger flangeway at the frog, and I've never had any problems with the Pecos that I have used.

It was only when the LHS owner showed me the Peco and Atlas turnouts side-by-side that I noticed the large flangeway. It was he who told me about the potential for problems. Since I'm not interested in spending good money on a product that I'll then have to fix, I have decided to go with something that doesn't require fixing.

QUOTE: The spring wire that provides the 'snap' keeps the points firmly against the stock rails, something that the Atlas turnouts sometimes have a problem with. You only need to remove the spring if you are going to use slow-motion switch motors like Tortoise to get that 'realistic' slow points motion, and even then, it's not necessary. The slow-mo machines will work with the spring still installed.

Yes, that was one of the main reasons I had originally decided to go with Peco -- I didn't have to motorise them immediately, relying on throwing the points by hand. Due to the design of my layout (with limited space under-deck for larger switch-machines like a Tortoise), I wanted a low-profile switch machine like the ones Peco or Atlas offer.

As a bonus, the Atlas combo is cheaper than the Peco combo; and I'll get comparable reliability.