Damp Basement

[Anonymous]

I have a poured concrete basement. Each day I empty about two (2) gallons of water from the dehumidifers. Is there a product to dry out the air without using the dehumidfiers? Is there a recommended temperature/humidity level to prevent potential corrosion problems with locomotive motors, track, etc.?

Thanks much.
Flagman46

[simonjeff1]

Hi Flagman,
I don't usually respond to posts here, as I feel I have more to learn than contribute. However, this one I will:

Not knowing where you live, I may be comparing apples with oranges, but I live in the Chicago area, so judge my response by that. I emptied about 65 pints (full capacity) from my humidifier, which was set on low, about every other day. I have the same type of basement as you, and had the machine set to 50% humidity. I strived for about 68-70 degF with this, and have had no corrosion problems. One thing you have to watch out for is getting it too dry, especially if you have carpeting. Static sparks will "kill" the electronics in an engine.

Your 1st question seems to indicate you are getting as tired of the noise from the humidifier as I did, so here's a suggestion: If you have A/C in your house, have supply and return ducts run into the basement from the HVAC unit. This has several benefits. 1. It will reduce humidity the same as it does for your upstairs. 2. It circulates and mixes the air with the upstairs air, reducing or eliminating the usual basement "layout smell". 3. It will reduce the heat buildup during operating sessions, from the combination of lighting, engines, and multiple bodies. 4. In the winter, if you have a humidifier in the system, it adds humidity to the basement, eliminating the above mentioned static sparks. If you live in the northern tier of states, you know how dry things get in the winter. 5. It will help maintain a uniform temp/humidity level, which will minimize the expansion and shrinkage problems caused by swings in same.

Hope this helps. It worked quite well for me, and was suggested by my furnace man when I had the furnace replaced. It only added a couple of hours to the installation time, and he threw it in for no charge. One caveat; you should run the furnace/AC fan all the time, to keep the air circulating. That's OK with me, as it's quieter and cheaper than running the dehumidifier.

Best Regards,
Jeff

[Big_Boy_4005]

[#welcome] to the forum. The underlying question is what is the source of the humidity?

Dehumidification is just a band aid to a potentially larger problem. What part of the country do you live in? Please don't say New Orleans.[swg]

Air conditioning is a natural dehumidifier, but if you don't need to change the temperature, it isn't any better than what you have.

[Stevert]

I'd have to guess that the best humidity level for the equipment would be zero per cent, but that wouldn't be healthy for the people running the trains. An acceptable range would probably be 20% to 30%.

That said, have you sealed the walls and floor with a waterproof concrete paint? I used a light grey floor paint from Sears, and did the walls with some cheap white stuff from Menards I think. Both were latex-based, so they didn't stink too bad. It's made a *huge* difference in keeping the basement humidity in check.

HTH,
Stevert

[simonjeff1]

Bigboy,
I never thought about New Orleans. If it wasn't so serious, I would be ROFL. I think I will anyway.

Good point about the temperature delta not needing to be changed. I guess I assumed that he had already ruled out standing water, infiltration, etc. However, I stand by the use of the constant fan circulation. The basement is usually a stagnant air mass, and the other benefits are welcome.

See, that's why I usually listen instead of talking. I learn something each time I come here.

[Javern]

desired humidity in a house is 50 %- 55 %, it is possible to have a house too dry. Basements are naturally higher in moisture but sealing walls, crawlspaces helps, also cover open sumps, vent dryers to the outside. Leave the door to the basement open if possible or open windows. Like said above run ducts from the a/c to the basement.

[ss122]

That seems like a lot of water available to be pulled from the air. Is there ever any standing water or wet spots on the floor or where the floors and walls meet? Do you know if there is adequate drainage outside the foundation in terms of drainage pipes in gravel outside the footings to give the ever present ground water another place to go other than into the walls and floor, and then air in your basement? I'm not trying to run up the bill, but sometimes a definite one time fix is better than years of running dehumidifiers. I'm not aware of and other proven ways to solve your problem.

The major problem high or widely varying humidity levels will cause a model railroader is warpage, shrinkgage and expansion of wood used in construction, causing ongoing track allignment problems. You could minimize these by sealing your wood, or using steel, plastic of foam as much as possible, but i'd look to see if you can find out where all that H20 is coming from. Ken

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simonjeff1

Bigboy,
I never thought about New Orleans. If it wasn't so serious, I would be ROFL. I think I will anyway.

Good point about the temperature delta not needing to be changed. I guess I assumed that he had already ruled out standing water, infiltration, etc. However, I stand by the use of the constant fan circulation. The basement is usually a stagnant air mass, and the other benefits are welcome.

See, that's why I usually listen instead of talking. I learn something each time I come here.

I've always had a slightly warped sense of humor, and since it is no longer a matter of life and death, I figured it was fair game.

We have a guy over on the Trains Magazine forum who lives in Houston, and he is staying in his home through this. He's actually still crackin jokes on the forum.

By the way, they don't have basements in New Orleans, and now we know why.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the info. I live in central NJ. There is a crawl space under an addition on the end of the house and another under an addition on the side of the house with basement-size windows that come into the basement. However, I keep the closed. There are 3 sump pumps, and I will cover them.

Flgaman46

[Big_Boy_4005]

I think that will help your situation a lot. Is this a newer house or an old one? Newer being 80's vintage or later. Do you have gutters and good drainage around your foundation? There may be no easy or cheap way to prevent the sumps from filling, but the more water you can keep away from the foundation, the better off you'll be.

One thing that would make your life easier with regard to your dehumidifier, would be to have it be self draining, by rigging it with a hose to direct the water into one of the sumps you plan to cover.

If your basement is OK for temperature, just adding a return duct will help by running that air through the AC.

[TBat55]

The dehumidifier I bought at Wally World (WalMart) has a garden hose connection for draining. I have a 50' hose along one wall and had to make a 2x4 stand to raise the dehumidifier about 2' off the floor. It's the HEAT from the unit that bugs me in the NY summer. A/C would be a much better solution.

[siberianmo]

Regarding the initial question -

QUOTE: is there a product to dry out the air without using the dehumidfiers?

I have that product.

My basement was not only damp all of the time, with no major cracks or hydrostatic pressure problems, but the mold and mildew was driving me to distraction with allergies. My model railroad was suffering too ..... so, I took it all down, and pretty much gave up on having anything serious in the basement.

About a year later my furnace/air conditioner service technician recommended an Air Purifier-Dehumidifier unit for not only the basement, but for the entire house. The unit, cost me $5k - [yeah] - that's bucks - but let me continue ....

Within less than a month, the mold and mildew had 'died' and the level of humidity had dropped from readings way too high, to the supposed "norm" of 50% in the basement.

There are all kinds of units llike the one I have on the market, so I'm not endorsing any particular product and don't want anyone accusing me of doing so. Send me an E-mail, and I'll be glad to provide you with whatever further help I can.

We've had the unit operating in our basement now for nearly 5 years and all's well. Allergies pretty much under control and the basement has since been turned into an HO trainroom. Check out the photo's if you'd like on my album located in my profile.

Hope this helps!

[grayfox1119]

I have a basement in a 1967 split entry home, on the near top of the hill, and had water problems from the start. It took me years to solve this problem, getting some good advice and some bad advice from people all trying to help.
Some of the folks have given you some real good advice in this thread, especially those who have had problems.
My home has perimeter drains too, at the base of the footings. The problem was, our soil here is heavy clay for 200 feet down...it HOLDS water! And back in 1967, they did not wrap the perimeter drains with filter cloth, so after several years and lots of surface water, the clay silt filled the pipes more than half full, blocking the weep holes, so they no longer picked up any ground water. That meant hydrostatic pressure was constantly rising. This caused me to install a sump pump. Now we had water sitting in the tank in the floor all the time. Good in winter, bad in humid summers.
I dug a deep 8 foot drain line at the high side of the house (rear) to intercept the ground water, used the latest piping and filter cloth, filled the rest of the trench with rocks and sand, they clay and top soil near the top. It worked fantastically, even with the wettest spring on record.
If you can afford what Siberianmo did, or what others mentioned with piped in air conditioning, go this route. But if you cannot afford this now, by all means use a dehumidifier set so that you maintain 45% to 55% room humidity. If it is set too low, you will have static build up. Just take a plastic comb and rub it through your hair several times very fast, then see if you can pick up small pieces of paper, if you can, the air is too dry.
Bottom line, try to eliminate the SOURCE of the water in the basement first. Paint the walls and floor in the train room with waterproofing product from stores like Home Depot. Place pipe insulation on all cold water pipes which will drip water in the summer when humidity is high. Then see what you can do outside with gutter drains....get the water runoff AWAY from the house, dig drains if you need too.

Good luck, let us know how you do,