My layout idea....whattdoyall think?

[jacon12]

Kenneth, I'm following this with great interest also. Would you mind elaborating on this part?
"Schematic of the Generic Pacific: continuous oval with hidden staging on back half, interchange with Shay Mountain Railroad on front half."

I don't understand the 'back half' part.
Thanks,
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

I don't understand any of it, but I'm tryin real hard. If it ain't in picture form, I'm just a dumbass.

I got the decoder from here: http://www.acculites.com/SOUNDTRAXX_pp.html

REAL nice people. FAST as HELL shipping. As you can see, they want 116 bucks for the same decoder most want 149 for. I got the Zephyr from Ebay. Here's the link to the seller I bought from: http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZbrillianthobby

Brilliant Hobby is the business name. The man's name is David Brilliant, and quite frankly, he is. He's very nice and helpful. He also sold me the Zephyr for 149 bucks. I watch very closely who I do business with on Ebay. Look at his feedback. He has 943 comments, no neutrals, and one negative. You can reach him directly at 949 306 8627. Hope that helps.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12



Kenneth, I'm following this with great interest also. Would you mind elaborating on this part?
"Schematic of the Generic Pacific: continuous oval with hidden staging on back half, interchange with Shay Mountain Railroad on front half."

I don't understand the 'back half' part.
Thanks,
Jarrell

[leighant]

jacon12 wrote "I don't understand the 'back half' part." in connection with
"Schematic of the Generic Pacific: continuous oval with hidden staging on back half, interchange with Shay Mountain Railroad on front half.
Imagine an oval of track on a long layout that is set against a wall, viewed and operated from the open middle of the room. When I say "the back half", I refer to the half of the oval that is up against the wall and "back" away from the viewer. The "front half" refers to the part of the oval that is towards the front edge of the layout, near the aisle, viewer and operator.
It might half been confusing because we are talking about an L-shaped layout but I am just thinking of it as a long narrow layout that is bent somewhere close to the middle.

I am going to be posting more, probably tomorrow, about the steep mountain branch line that would fit inside and over the mainline "Generic Pacific" loop I described earlier.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob
As you can see, they want 116 bucks for the same decoder most want 149

ouch , that's a lot less than what i'm paying for the one on order at my LHS . sometimes living in canada and supporting my LHS hurts . especially in the wallet

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm on a fixed income, so necessity dictates that I find the lowest prices I can or don't do the hobby. There might have been cheaper prices out there for what I did, but I haven't found them yet. Like you, I want to support my LHS, but they are a bunch of a$$holes. It's a major though, so I don't feel bad for not patronizing them. If they can't hire good people, then to hell with them.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob
As you can see, they want 116 bucks for the same decoder most want 149

ouch , that's a lot less than what i'm paying for the one on order at my LHS . sometimes living in canada and supporting my LHS hurts . especially in the wallet

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by leighant

jacon12 wrote "I don't understand the 'back half' part." in connection with
"Schematic of the Generic Pacific: continuous oval with hidden staging on back half, interchange with Shay Mountain Railroad on front half.
Imagine an oval of track on a long layout that is set against a wall, viewed and operated from the open middle of the room. When I say "the back half", I refer to the half of the oval that is up against the wall and "back" away from the viewer. The "front half" refers to the part of the oval that is towards the front edge of the layout, near the aisle, viewer and operator.
It might half been confusing because we are talking about an L-shaped layout but I am just thinking of it as a long narrow layout that is bent somewhere close to the middle.

I am going to be posting more, probably tomorrow, about the steep mountain branch line that would fit inside and over the mainline "Generic Pacific" loop I described earlier.

Ok, I understand now.
Thanks,
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob

Well, I'm on a fixed income, so necessity dictates that I find the lowest prices I can or don't do the hobby. There might have been cheaper prices out there for what I did, but I haven't found them yet. Like you, I want to support my LHS, but they are a bunch of a$$holes. It's a major though, so I don't feel bad for not patronizing them. If they can't hire good people, then to hell with them.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob
As you can see, they want 116 bucks for the same decoder most want 149

Rob, where did you get your Shay?
Thanks,
Jarrell

ouch , that's a lot less than what i'm paying for the one on order at my LHS . sometimes living in canada and supporting my LHS hurts . especially in the wallet

[oleirish]

You guys be vary carefull with "hidden stageing "on the back half of the lay out,If you can't reach it and have an de-railment??????????

JIM

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oleirish

You guys be vary carefull with "hidden stageing "on the back half of the lay out,If you can't reach it and have an de-railment??????????

Sounds like a perfect excuse to start building appropriately scaled skycrane helicopters to go in and lift them out. [:D]

[Anonymous]

I got the Shay off Ebay, too. I kinda got caught up in bidding and ended up paying 131 bucks for it. I really don't feel bad though. I've seen some for less, but I've seen a lot for a bunch more. I also wanted the undecorated, which I got, and you don't see them all the time on Ebay.

Having a derailment in a spot I can't get to has been a concern that I am going to design out of my layout. Especially since my layout is going to be against the wall on two sides, I need to make sure I can reach the track all the way to the wall.

[leighant]

The SHAY MOUNTAIN RAILROAD and GENERIC PACIFIC (A Layout Plan in Words) Continued
Whereas the Generic Pacific would be a continuous (“roundy-round”) loop that represents a through long distance mainline railroad with generous curve and grade standards to accommodate mainline equipment, the Shay Mountain railroad would be a mountainside climbing line, probably point-to-point (or point to reverse loop?) with short cars, small tough locomotives, sharp curves, steep grades and perhaps a deliberate obstacle or two. The model might represent cheap make-due construction, which would actually mean long hours of scratchbuilding with crude materials, whereas the Generic Pacific would represent expensive professional class-one civil engineering, which would be modeled by inexpensive off-the-shelf plastic models of steel bridges, etc.

Curves: While the Generic Pacific needs generous curves, the Shay Mountain line can get away with sharper 18” radius curves, and it fact it NEEDS sharper curves to get the feel of the short line railroad. (You might “get away” with 15” radius, but that might require a fair amount of tinkering, adjusting of models, testing, etc. 18” would probably be “safe”.)
This means that an end-of-the-layout turnback curve of the Shay Mtn line can fit INSIDE the turnback curve of the GP mainline. (A Shay Mtn 18” radius, 36” diameter to track center lines*, inside the mainline curve of 22” radius back, 28” radius front, diameter 50” (track
centers).

*NOTE: Remember that the “nominal” radius of a track curve is the radius to the imaginary line down the center line of the track, as if you drew its path with a single line. The width of the track takes up space both inside and outside that line.

We said earlier that the Generic Pacific loop might have a reverse loop at one end. The smaller radius Shay Mtn curve would fit inside the end curve but there would be a problem if the two lines were at the same or almost the same elevation. The Shay Mtn line would have to cross the reverse loop cutoff with crossings that might be hard to fit-- unusual angles, etc. and would force the two lines to be at EXACTLY the same level at the crossing points. Therefore, it would be advisable to locate the first turnback curve on the Shay Mtn line inside the end turnback curve of the Generic Pacific that does NOT have the reverse loop. Needing no level crossing, the Shay Mountain can be starting its climb. It can be half an inch to an inch and a half above the GP line. That would add to the feeling that although the two tracks are roughly parallel, it is not double track of the same line. Different ballasting and roadbed etc between the two lines would also help…. Even solid roadbed, carefully-groomed ballast, concrete or stone retaining walls on the GP, Shay Mtn roadbed held up with crude timber cribbing retaining walls and little ballast.
By the time the Shay Mtn RR got to other end of the layout, it should be high enough to cross the reverse loop cutoff easily, possibly on a timber trestle or timber truss bridge. Although the Shay Mtn line could probably easily inside the end loop at that point, it might be visually better not to repeat a mirror image of the same orientation, etc as the other end. The Shay Mtn end turnback curve could be located so one side of the curve is directly over the curve of the lower track, and the opposite side of the same curve is well back from the lower curve. It might be well to put set the Shay Mtn track back from the front edge of the layout so the curve is over over the mainline curve at the back, and the mainline track is in a tunnel at the back. That would make the Generic Pacific out in the open at the front where it is going the “right” direction, that it, the direction a viewer perceives as its main overall apparent direction of travel, while being less conspicuous at the back where the reverse of direction gives away that is going roundy-round instead of from Point A to Point B.
In general, a mainline railroad tends to go as straight as possible from A to B, and we want our models of mainlines to convey this sense as much as possible in limited space. On the other hand, the logging or mining short line may meander back and forth to find the easiest cheapest way to get someplace, and then may change its direction when new mines or new logging areas open, and it may use the old route as part of a way to get to the new destination, albeit zig-zagging. So a short line that goes back and forth climbing the mountainside (and crossing the same general layout space two or three times) visually goes along with that sense of a meandering line.
Also, if any tunnels are needed to shoehorn things into a layout, the tunnels are more appropriate on the mainline which had more money to spend. (Real life tunnels are $$$$$.) Putting the short line OVER mainline tunnels and having NO TUNNELS AT ALL on the short line but cheap fills, timber trestles and timber cribbing is more in the nature of the shortline. (I read once that the entire Denver and Rio Grande narrow gauge system, hundreds of miles long, had only two short tunnels.)
Grades: The grades for the Shay Mtn line should be visibly steeper than the gentle mainline grades. You might want to test your locomotives and see what grades they will handle on a length of track attached to a board you can elevate to various angles. I have heard arguments that 4% is a stiff grade for models, doable but a strain. You WANT your Shay line to be a little bit of a strain. Whatever grade you decide is acceptable by the “board line” test method, remember that it is a little more difficult pulling that same grade on a sharp curve. If you find a train can barely make it up a 5% grade on straight track and can pull 4% in a workmanlike manner, you might want to make a grade that averages 3 ½ percent that continues through the sharp curves.
On the other hand, it might be interesting to include one short stretch of steeper grade, less than a train length long, that a train can barely make it up. That would be visually interesting and be an interesting operating challenger, perhaps requiring “doubling the hill”. That means leaving part of a train on the line just below the steep place (with brakes set!), pulling half the train up and setting cars out on a spur, then backing down over the steep segment to pickup the rest of the train and put it together to go the rest of the way to the summit. Not all trains would have to do this, just ones with over a certain numbers of cars or a certain tonnage. Or locos with less pulling oomph.
Let’s plot a guesstimate of the line length and elevation. Suppose the Shay Mtn RR connects with the Generic Pacific at approximately the middle of the length of the layout, runs to one end (1/2 layout length) and turns around, runs back to the other end of the layout (1 more layout length) turns around and runs one more length of the layout before reaching the summit and the mine or log loading area(1 more layout length). That is a run of 2 ½ layout lengths x 28 feet/ layout length = 70 feet. That is 840 inches. At a nominal grade of 3.5 percent, the line could climb 29.4 inches. Wow! The line won’t be climbing the entire distance because it will probably level it off for the length of the loading tracks, etc at the summit. We might back off the guesstimate to 24 inches elevation change. If that is more than we want, we might consider having the grade level off in places, so it is not uniform, has some spots steeper and others less so. Might look and run more interestingly.
One more little thing to throw in. How about a switchback? Occasionally used in mountain climbing railroads, ESPECIALLY cheaply built logging and mining short lines. We don’t really need the switchback to gain altitude with 2 turnback curves, but it still adds running length. With all this added length of run, we don’t really have so much need to locate our summit terminal directly over one of the end turnback curves.
What else to add to the line? We might want to be able to run two trains at once, one uphill and one downhill and they would need a place to meet. A double-ended passing siding is typical of mainlines, where neither train needs to back. On the cheaply built short line, a stub-end back-in siding might be more appropriate. On a logging railroad, it might be built to look like the stub of a spur built to serve a former logging area that is logged out. The same spur might be used to hold cars for a train that is “doubling the hill”, preferable ABOVE the steep grade. A loco might conceivably leave half of train on line on lower part of grade, but when he takes the first half up the hill, he would have to set them out and get around them to go back down the hill to get the second part of the train.
What would be at the summit? Some people would have a reverse loop so the uphill train can continue forward while turning around to go down the hill. I would avoid this because it would almost have to be put on top of one of the end turnback curves, making a mountain that is almost a straight up and down cylinder, unnatural looking. I would prefer a runaround track and at least one switching spur where a loco can runaround to go out from in front of its uphill cars, leave the empty cars at the summit mine or log loader, and pick up loaded cars to take down the hill. More back and forth and switching movement rather than continually running forward. If you want to turn the locomotive, a small turntable would be appropriate. So would a wye but it would stick out over the lower part of the layout too much, probably even into the aisle.
I haven’t gone into the trackage for the interchange at the bottom. Some questions to think about? If it is a logging railroad, does the logger railroad carry loaded log cars to interchange to the GP trunkline, or is there a sawmill at the interchange town where log cars are dumped and loaded lumber cars are interchanged out to the trunkline railroad. Similarly, if your short line serves mines, does it load ore cars which are interchanged out to the trunkline railroad, or does it carry ore to a concentrater or smelter of some kind, which ships different cars out on the trunkline railroad?
Some other considerations… I did not think about which side of your L-shaped space was the 12 foot long side and which the 16 foot side. Do you want to locate the Generic Pacific reverse loop on the 12 foot or 16 foot side? (It doesn’t really make any difference to me which is the right or left side of the L. One could mirror-flip one track plan into the other…) You might want to draw it both ways, and draw in the end curves and upper portion of the Shay Mountain line and then see what kind of space is left at the bottom for the interchange between lines and some industry tracks there. That might make a difference how things fit. If you are going to have a grade on your Generic Pacific, which should be the higher and which the lower end. I would think the making the end which does NOT have the reverse loop be the lower end would increase the difference in elevation between the GP and the Shay Mtn, adding to the effect of Shay Mtn being different, more rugged etc.
I hope this exercise left you with some interesting things to think about. I had fun thinking it over. Fitting the desired features into a limited space is a lot like doing a simple multiple-variable algebra or calculus problem. Sometimes gives me ideas I can used on my own layout.
Happy railroading.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob

I got the Shay off Ebay, too. I kinda got caught up in bidding and ended up paying 131 bucks for it. I really don't feel bad though. I've seen some for less, but I've seen a lot for a bunch more. I also wanted the undecorated, which I got, and you don't see them all the time on Ebay.

Having a derailment in a spot I can't get to has been a concern that I am going to design out of my layout. Especially since my layout is going to be against the wall on two sides, I need to make sure I can reach the track all the way to the wall.

Sounds like a good price to me, Rob. I've found a 3 truck 80 ton bachmann dcc lights and sound for $322... so with the price of yours and the decoder you saved a lot.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Jarrell. I thought it turned out good, too. It's really a very easy install. I'd do um all day long for 15 bucks a piece.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRedneckRob

I got the Shay off Ebay, too. I kinda got caught up in bidding and ended up paying 131 bucks for it. I really don't feel bad though. I've seen some for less, but I've seen a lot for a bunch more. I also wanted the undecorated, which I got, and you don't see them all the time on Ebay.

Having a derailment in a spot I can't get to has been a concern that I am going to design out of my layout. Especially since my layout is going to be against the wall on two sides, I need to make sure I can reach the track all the way to the wall.

Sounds like a good price to me, Rob. I've found a 3 truck 80 ton bachmann dcc lights and sound for $322... so with the price of yours and the decoder you saved a lot.
Jarrell