Hello folks! An introduction and a few questions.

[Zandoz]

I've spent several evenings checking out the posts here...and can tell this place is a gold mine!

After about 20 years of "observing" and occasionally making acquisitions, but never having the time and/or place to take the layout plunge, I finally have both....with complicating limitations.

Now for the limitations...the reason for now having time is disability retirement due to seriously bad and deteriorating knees and back...the associated fixed income...and the location I have available is VERY far from ideal. It is a 100+ year old basement...rubble stone walls that are not remotely straight, plumb, or flat...concrete floors that more closely resemble a bowl than a plate...a moisture level varies widely...and it's accessible only via narrow and steep (for me) stairs.

The plan to-date is a small to medium sized HO layout...constructed in 2" foam decked modules sized for stairway navigation. Work on the foam modules will be done in a more comfortable environment, so they must be easily removed/installed on the semipermanent bench work in the basement. The theme will be early 50s (maybe very early 60s) NW Ohio small town...small passenger and freight stations...and the typical rail served local industries such as coal yard, fuel oil dealer, and of course farmer's Co-op. The terrain will be flat, with a small river/stream and it's associated lowland for variation. I grew up about 100 feet from the old Wabash line, so that is the flag I've been collecting over the years, but the scenes I want to meld together are VERY loosely based on ones I saw on a number of NW Ohio lines.

Now for the first few of probably very many questions to come:

Does anyone have any suggestions for bench work materials (woods/composites) that will not come to resemble a pretzel in the varying humidity? Metal bench work is probably not an option due to price, lack of tools, and lack of experience working with. On the other hand I have a wood working tool collection to rival Tim the Tool Man Taylor...LOL

Will the curved leg of turnouts and wyes make sufficient easements? If not, any suggestions for laying out an easement coming off a a turnout or wye?

Any tips on handling streets/roads and rivers that run into the backdrops on shallow (24" front to back) modules?

I'm sure there will be many many more questions in the future. I want to thank everyone for the assistance the folks here provide.


Zanny

[selector]

Welcome to the forum, Zanny. Anything that absorbs moisture will do very poorly unless you can control the problem with a substantial dehumidifier, or unless you can seal your basement to a significant extent. If you have to live with what you have, try PVC tubing with joiners, and lay at least 2" extruded foam over a suitable benchwork made of the PVC. One iffy think about the PVC is that it won't be very cheap or sturdy unless you fill lower legs with sand, and use some form of bracing...all adds to the cost.

I can't say much about the turnout and easement thing, except that I understand that the higher the number, the less departing or diverging curvature there is. So, a #8 would be more suitable, within the inherent limitations of your overall layout dimensions, than a #6 for a high speed mainline. You could always use flex-track out of the diverging rails and craft your own easements.

If you can get Joe (jfugate) to respond here, and several others, they can get you going on your road questions. I have heard that mirrors help to maintain the illusion of distance. See what the others say.

Regards,

[ndbprr]

Read the article in the May MR regarding using steel studs to build a framework. Deifnitely use something other than the walls to support the backdrop.

[MisterBeasley]

I also immediately thought of that article about steel benchwork. I haven't priced the stuff, but I believe the article claimed it was actually cheaper than wood benchwork. Of course, wood's not cheap these days, either. Because it's hollow, the steel is very light so it's more manageable when dealing with stairways.

If you use a hot-wire cutter for shaping your foam, you don't want to do the cutting in a closed area like a basement. It produces bad-for-you fumes, so you need to provide plenty of ventilation. Of course, Tim the Tool Man would use a chain saw...[:D]

[ereimer]

my only experience with steel construction is paying to have a wall built in the attic of a house i renovated , so consider this advice worth exactly what you're paying for it [:)]

at home depot (here in toronto , canada) steel studs sell for very close to the same price as the 2"x4" studs they're desiged to replace . they have several advantages that make them especially good for attics and basements

1) light weight compared to wood
2) won't warp in the humidity/dryness cycles often seen in basements
3) have holes precut for running wires
4) easily cut with tin snips (the steel is very thin)
5) screw together using self tapping screws (sold specifically for this use)

the tradesman and helper i hired for the job built the wall including drywalling both sides to local fire code in three evenings after his regular day job . he also gave himself a pretty nasty cut requiring stitches on a cut edge of the steel , so care is required . i now have a very nicely built wall in an attic where no one will ever see it again . gotta love fire regulations when renovating a 100 year old house into 2 apartments !

i'm sure a nice frame could be built from the steel studs , with PVC tubing legs , and the 2" foam for the top and you'd have a pretty sturdy , water resistant layout

[Anonymous]

I'll agree with the idea of steel studs. Usually comparable in price to wood studs & easy to work with. No special tools required.

I'll assume that you've looked at possible remedys to lower the humidity in the basement? Of course, major cracks, a shallow water table, etc aren't easy to correct, but I've seen what looked like major moisture problems solved by simple fixes. Sometimes simply installing operable windows to provide ventilation will solve summertime humidity problems. Or removing standing water with a simple sump pump. Often overlooked is making sure the exterior grade is sloped away from the foundation & not towards it.. Last fall my ex called in a panic because it was a raining hard and her basement suddenly began to flood. Since she said she never had a leak there before, I sent her outside in the downpour (hee hee) to check the gutters & downspouts. Sure enough , one section of the downspout had pulled away from the section that carried water away from the house.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Wayne

[Zandoz]

Thanks folks!

Unfortunately there is not much to be done about the high moisture times. Prior attempts at sealing the rubble stone have been futile, and doing it "right" would be an undertaking beyond financial practicality. There already is a window for ventilation. I have a line on a 30" reversable ventillating fan that I may be able to use in the window during summer time. We have a dehumidifier, but a prior attempt at running it continiously resulted in electric bill sticker shock...we still run it at seriously bad times. The problem is compounded by the fact that durring extended dry periods the humidity goes to the other extreme.

I have considered the steel studs, but have no tools for cutting them in quantity (I do love my power mitre saws...LOL) . Also, without being sandwhiched between rigid surfaces (drywall), they seem pretty flimsey on their own.

The PVC may be the way to go. I've done extensive PVC plumbing and outdoor furnature, so that would be a piece of cake. I even have some pipe and fittings on hand. The first issue that comes to mind would be the thickness of the fitting hubs...they would raise the foam off any horizontal pipe runs, leaving the foam unsupported other than where it contacted the fittings. Definately gives me something to ponder though.

I was planning on sticking with #6 turnouts on the mainline...where possible and practical. Flex-track would be the way to go, if easements are necessary, but I have no idea how to lay one out coming out of a turnout, as opposed to a simple tangent track.

Mirrors, heh....hmmmmmmm...now with a little dry ice for smoke....................

Thanks again folks!


Zanny

[grandeman]

Zanny, this may be way off base, but it's something I have thought of from time to time. Could you get a small out building built? I had one done a few years ago that was 10'x12' for about $2500. I was used for storage only but with a heat/cool window unit and a little insulation... You get the idea. Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

What about a carbide blade for the power saw to cut the steel studs?

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grande man

Zanny, this may be way off base, but it's something I have thought of from time to time. Could you get a small out building built? I had one done a few years ago that was 10'x12' for about $2500. I was used for storage only but with a heat/cool window unit and a little insulation... You get the idea. Just a thought.

I've had the same thoughts from time to time...and threatened to take the plunge where we used to live...we had the 10x14 shed, but never the time. Here, the postage stamp yard would not accomodate a shed...and that kind of outlay in one hit would not be possible.

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

What about a carbide blade for the power saw to cut the steel studs?

That's a thought. But I still have doubts about the rigidity without them being sandwhiched between some kind of skins. Years ago, I checked out some of the scrap laying around during an office remodel, and they were surprisingly flimsy on their own.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Zandoz


But I still have doubts about the rigidity without them being sandwhiched between some kind of skins.

you could probably use 1/4" plywood painted on both sides on top of the studs , then glue the foam to the plywood . that should add enough rigidity to the structure

[dehusman]

For less than $20 you can buy a adequate pair of tin snips to cut the metal studs. The major problem I see in your case is tha they are designed to fit into a base channel. It sounds like your basement floor is not level enough to accomodate that channel easily.

You can buy 2x4 plastic tube that is designed for plastic fence rails. Not cheap at all though.

You might want to try a variation of "centipede" benchwork. You make a series of PVC pipe leg assemblies. Each one looks like a cross-section through a tall chair. To give you a better idea, draw a chair shape, the back is as tall as the top of your backdrop, the "seat' is about 6-8" below the top of your layout surface and legs are as required. Then put a crosspiece about 3" below the seat and another about 6" off the ground.

Screw 1x4 pieces to the seat and the cross piece below it as risers. Screw a piece of 1x2 to the front of the front leg where the fascia will go. Optionally you can screw a piece of 1x2 to the front of the seat "back" to attach the backdrop to. use tempered masonite, drywall or plastic panels (like for shower enclosures) as backdrops and fascia. Then set 2" foam rigid insulataion on the risers for the layout surface. The fascia and backdrop will hold the legs in place and you won't need any "L" girder or anything running length wise. If you absolutely must have something running the length of the layout you can cut pieces of smaller dia tube to screw to the seat area to connect the leg assemblies. Using short pieces of wood for risers and attachment studs to screw the fascia and backdrop into won't cause any warping problems with humidity changes.

The only other suggestion would be to make it all out of copper pipe so if it doesn't work out you would at least end up with one heck of a still and be able to drown your sorrows.

Dave H.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Zandoz

The first issue that comes to mind would be the thickness of the fitting hubs...they would raise the foam off any horizontal pipe runs, leaving the foam unsupported other than where it contacted the fittings.

Zanny,

Just cut out the bottom layer of foam (one inch) where the fittings are. Then the foam would rest on the the horizontal pipes. A second layer can then be laminated to the first, covering the entire thing.

Dave

P.S. I think you've discovered one of the joys of this forum. Ask a question and you'll get a bunch of folks coming forward with a myriad of ideas all in the spirit of helping. Ain't it great?

Welcome to the greatest hobby in the world!!! Don't forget - the goal in this hobby is simple - have fun and keep smiling!

[selector]

Yes, the fittings will get in the way, so making some shallow cut-outs where the fittings lie against the foam will quickly have the foam seated along the horizontal tubes, where you want it.

All indications that I have from other contributors here are that 2" foam is plenty strong and won't sag appreciably. So, you could defer gluing the PVC until you determine for yourself whether you need a cross member half-way along the foam, underneath, for support.

I repeat, this will be a very light table, so some form of guy-wires or bracing, and or weight in the legs will be necessary to keep you from bumping everything off the rails from time-to-time.

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The only other suggestion would be to make it all out of copper pipe so if it doesn't work out you would at least end up with one heck of a still and be able to drown your sorrows.

Dave H.

Hmmmmmmm...a still disguised as benchwork....now if I can just figure out how to make it produce the hard stuff (diet Dr Pepper) I'll be all set!

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Just cut out the bottom layer of foam (one inch) where the fittings are. Then the foam would rest on the the horizontal pipes. A second layer can then be laminated to the first, covering the entire thing.

Some times the answers are just too simple for me to see. Thanks!

[IRONROOSTER]

With regard to easements. Yes you get an easement effect on the diverging track with a turnout. It's not a true easement because of the short straight sections - but overall there is an easement effect. The reason for this is the radius of substitution (read John Armstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation") for the turnout as a whole is larger than the radius of the curve it leads into, usually. (Atlas snap tracks which are a drop in replacement for an 18" radius track section are an exception to this.) If you have the space for it, I would put in a regular easement off the end of the turnout just like you were coming off a tangent piece of track.. If space is tight you could use a short easement.

Enjoy
Paul

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Zandoz

Some times the answers are just too simple for me to see.

You aren't the only one! Ever spend hours looking for something and then realizing there it is - sitting right out in the open in the middle of the table? If I had a penny for every time this has happened . . . . . .

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Zandoz

Some times the answers are just too simple for me to see.

You aren't the only one! Ever spend hours looking for something and then realizing there it is - sitting right out in the open in the middle of the table? If I had a penny for every time this has happened . . . . . .

At least I'm not the only one who does stuff like that! Now I just have to find a plauseable excuse for the ever increasing frequency. LOL

[ereimer]

it just occured to me that a friend of mine built a large deck off the back of his house last summer using a recycled plastic product formed into 2" x 8" x 12' pieces meant for deck building instead of wood . it looks great , was cut easily using standard woodworking tools , is held together with nails or screws , and is meant to last a long time out in the rain and snow . i would guess he got it somewhere like home depot , i could check with him if you're interested . no idea if it comes in other sizes , or if it's available where you are

[camarokid]

Welcome aboard.[:)]
How large is this basement? How high is the ceiling? Are the floor joists visible so you could possibly build a second wall attached to them around the room? Is it possible to lay 1x2's for a minimum level floor? Would an outside entrance be feasible? Are the stairs situated in such a way that they could be realigned for a more gentle approach to the basement? These are some considerations that you might not have thought of as you plan your layout room. A sub floor with some carpet (short cut) is a lot better than standing on concrete for a couple of hours. Especially if it isn't flat. For the moisture could you leave a light on most of the time to heat the air. Not a good suggestion, if not possible, for many reasons. These are just my thoughts for you to ponder to make your layout room more comfortable. Have fun with your layout.
Archie

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

it just occured to me that a friend of mine built a large deck off the back of his house last summer using a recycled plastic product formed into 2" x 8" x 12' pieces meant for deck building instead of wood . it looks great , was cut easily using standard woodworking tools , is held together with nails or screws , and is meant to last a long time out in the rain and snow . i would guess he got it somewhere like home depot , i could check with him if you're interested . no idea if it comes in other sizes , or if it's available where you are

I've worked with the synthetic lumber in the past...namely TREX. At least with what I've seen, it is not rigid enough to use for framing...without the rigid support of conventional wood framing, it tends to flex and sag. If anyone has any experiance with other varieties of synthetics, I'd love to hear about it.

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by camarokid

Welcome aboard.[:)]
How large is this basement? How high is the ceiling? Are the floor joists visible so you could possibly build a second wall attached to them around the room? Is it possible to lay 1x2's for a minimum level floor? Would an outside entrance be feasible? Are the stairs situated in such a way that they could be realigned for a more gentle approach to the basement? These are some considerations that you might not have thought of as you plan your layout room. A sub floor with some carpet (short cut) is a lot better than standing on concrete for a couple of hours. Especially if it isn't flat. For the moisture could you leave a light on most of the time to heat the air. Not a good suggestion, if not possible, for many reasons. These are just my thoughts for you to ponder to make your layout room more comfortable. Have fun with your layout.
Archie

We're pretty much stuck with the structural layout we have. Without also taking out a load bearing wall, and the stairs to the 2nd floor, the steps arn't going anywhere. There once was an outside entrance, but sometime in the early 50s, it was slabbed over with about 8" of concrete...we've discussed opening them up again, but that's been financially ruled out.. Anything wood on the floor is goin to be out of the question with the moisture situation...I'm already going to have to replace a stairway support that was sat directly on the floor. The ceiling is relatively high for a basement....just short of 8'. But the area above is pretty well obstructed with heating, plumbing, electrical, gas lines (this place had gas lights, so they are EVERYWHERE), etc. This basement really is a modern day dungeon, but it's the beast I have to deal with.

The area I have is approximately 12'x13'. Even that little space is intruded on by the water heater, and several valves and utility pannels that must be accessable. For me, 36" (or more) isles are going to be a must...and duck unders and such are going to be an absolute no-no. To date, the plan I'm leaning towards is going to be an approximately 5x9 foot penninsula...a 12-15" by 10' shelf down one wall...and if it progresses that far, and I duck a track behind the whater heater, enough space for a simple reversing loop tucked in one corner.

[BRVRR]

Welcome aboard Zandoz,
You could probably still go with the metal studs if you cut the base channel into small pieces (large enough to accommodate the verticals) screwed or shot onto the basement floor. The channel will accept minor deviations from level. Build your 'table with legs front and back with an occasional attachment to the wall for support. Check with your local scrap dealer for lightweight aluminum angle, channel and box shapes, you might be able to get for scrap prices and then recycle. I thought of the composite plastics too. Some retailers, Lowe's comes to mind, have shaped pieces, angles and Tees which can be used as structural members.
One other thought, you mentioned a load bearing wall. If it is in the middle, so to speak, why not penetrate it with 'tunnel openings' to give yourself more working room?
In any case, good luck with your project. Have fun.

[Zandoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRVRR

Welcome aboard Zandoz,
You could probably still go with the metal studs if you cut the base channel into small pieces (large enough to accommodate the verticals) screwed or shot onto the basement floor. The channel will accept minor deviations from level. Build your 'table with legs front and back with an occasional attachment to the wall for support. Check with your local scrap dealer for lightweight aluminum angle, channel and box shapes, you might be able to get for scrap prices and then recycle. I thought of the composite plastics too. Some retailers, Lowe's comes to mind, have shaped pieces, angles and Tees which can be used as structural members.
One other thought, you mentioned a load bearing wall. If it is in the middle, so to speak, why not penetrate it with 'tunnel openings' to give yourself more working room?
In any case, good luck with your project. Have fun.

I've been thinking along the lines of using pieces of base channel for kind of pivoting feet...and the top horizontal runs...with pieces of the studs for verticals. It sounds like you're thinking along the same lines. I still need to come up with some kind of humidity resistant "skins" to sandwhich the vertical members.

The bearing wall is open framing that forms the "curtain between the stairs and the rest of the basement. I already plan on running at least one track through it, to connect the main penninsula with the along-the-wall shelf.