HOMASOTE

[claycts]

OK back in the old days (1960) there was GREY Homasote that we bought for subroadbed. Now I see 10 different types on there website. I have to drive 60 miles with my trailer to get this stuff anybody know the MODEL NUMBER for the OLD GREY STUFF? Yes I have pink foam BUT OLD DOG HAS NOT LEARNED NEW TRICK. Thank You!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I looked at the website and was surprised to see all of the different products too. I think the original is the 440. Did you use the product locator?

I never knew that it had been around since 1909. My guess is that most places, like home inprovement stores, only carry the basic stuff, which is what you want anyway. I thought it was cool that they mentioned model railroading specificly as one of the applications for their product.

http://www.homasote.com/

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I looked at the website and was surprised to see all of the different products too. I think the original is the 440. Did you use the product locator?

I never knew that it had been around since 1909. My guess is that most places, like home inprovement stores, only carry the basic stuff, which is what you want anyway. I thought it was cool that they mentioned model railroading specificly as one of the applications for their product.

http://www.homasote.com/

Yes I see DUMMY shold have looked a little more> Yes that is nice they understand that we use it for roadbed. I think I am going with the 440 and either Cork or AMI or Woodland Scene for the roadbed. Still a little iffy on the foam thing. (OLD DOG, NEW TRICK) If it was a small layout then maybe, that way if I screwed it up it would not be as bad BUT 600+ ft of track, 6 levels in a 22z20 room.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Foam is pretty neat. I'm in 3 rail O, and have just started using it. It is easy to carve, and should have good sound qualities. I'll also be using it for my scenery. I have some Homasote which has been cut into strips, kind of like cork roadbed. I'm going to do a couple of sections of the railroad with that, just to use it up.

One of the best features of Homasote is it's ability to hold spikes, which makes it a great choice for hand laying. If you are just using ready made track, it isn't as big of a deal.

[eng22]

Hey Claycts,

Do not fear the foam! I used it for the subroad, then used homabed for the roadbed. Very happy with both.

[grayfox1119]

Claycts, if you try foam, you will never go back to Homasote....Homosote = cave man, Foam = space age.

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

Claycts, if you try foam, you will never go back to Homasote....Homosote = cave man, Foam = space age.

OK, CAVE MAN had good idea, CLUB, HEAD, DRAG HOME. at my AGE I takae up more SPACE than I did the 60's. Is that what you mean by SPACE AGE? I dated a SPACE CADET (blonde for you youngsters) in the 60's.[:D]
THank you for the input. I am going the John Allen route and planning, build model, then build layout. Started puting in the wires for the lights today.

[dknelson]

When Homasote was first recommended for train layouts one of its most attractive features was how it held spikes for handlaid track. Probably not much handlaid track going on these days but nonetheless, space age or stone age there is still a place for homasote as a sound deadener.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

I only hear one major complaint about Homosote. It expands from moisture either from wet scenery or high humidity. However sealing it with paint or shellac before laying it works to prevent swelling.
I have read that Homosote is not recommended for SUB-roadbed. But then again I also read that some folks have use it for sub-roadbed without problems. Seems to me it would be limited in strength.

[Anonymous]

gsetter, I agree that Homosote should be used over plywood or solid wood strips as an underlayment. I had success with cork-over-Homosote-over-wood (deck or bench work). Track Nails (Atlas #2540, 1/2 inch) work well for quiet operations and easy installation [use a "spike driver"]. I have noticed in another "General Discussion Topic" that some folks are using adhesives to fasten ties to the roadbed. I didn't know this method was so widely used. Somehow, it seems like an unnecessary step. Some adhesives ( eg., Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue) dries to a hard laminate and could amplify motor noise. If a Modeler wished to change his track plan at a letter date, the glueing method would entail extra clean-up and possibly the loss of material (cork, Homosote, etc.) in removing old track. As a Neanderthal, I haven't looked into "Foam" as [sealed] Homosote is inexpensive, cuts and textures easily, holds spikes well and with a 1/4 inch veneer of cork applied over the Homosote; noise is supressed. Since my layout dates back to the Steam Era, I will leave the "Space Age" to the "Cadets." Only kidding! "One man's cake is another man's poison."

[Anonymous]

Ok gents here's a more specific question for you regarding HOMOSOTE... if you're wanting to use it as roadbed on top of plywood, what's the best way to cut it to match the track plan and what's the best way to tapor the sides?? Seems to me it would be very difficult to manuever a huge sheet of it and if you were to lay it flat on the plywood and trace it seems there would be a lot of waste when cutting curved sections etc. Thanks. Dave

[Anonymous]

Cutting homosote with any type of power saw makes a huge amount of dust, so if you have to, do it outdoors if possible.

I cut it with a utility knife wth a sharp blade. It takes longer, but there's a lot less mess. If I had to do it for a basement sized layout, I might wait 'til the weather warms up and cut it outside with a jigsaw w/ a fine tooth blade.

You can taper the sides with a file/rasp.


John
Underhill, VT

[Anonymous]

Dave, I asked the Home Depot guy to cut the 4' X 8' panel in half (4' X 4') so I could fit the thing in my car. Before surgery, I donned a face mask, safety glases, an old G.I. fatigue cap and work gloves. [As John mentioned, a good "utility knife" or carpet knife will keep the "dust" to a minimum.] Throwing all caution to the winds I set the Homosote on the picnic table (outside), and used my power Jigsaw (dry wall blade) set at a 45 degree angle and "ripped-away." On curved sections, I chalked a template on the material (black side up) and used the same cutting method. To save material on curves, it is a good idea to plan ahead. Grab your old "plane geometry" book out of the closet and scribe your curve sections out with chalk before cutting. You may have four [or more] "arcs" to a long curve. Be sure that the ends of each "arc" match each other for a tight joint. This is fine for a continuous radius that is constant. For variations in radii, I used newspaper [cut as per a pattern] over the plywood. Perfect? No, some filing was needed but I took the precaution of making my cuts "full" (1/4" both edges) over the pattern. If you are under the radius, its a "bad day at Dry Gulch!" I'm sure other Contributers may have a better (easier) method than this Neanderthal approach. The only engineering skills I have are at the throttle. Best of luck Dave and enjoy.

[Anonymous]

Dave,

The two common methods to cut out homasote are the cookie cutter method described by Ted or to cut long strips similar in width to cork or maybe wider depending on the number of tracks, and to put saw cuts across the length about 2/3 of the way through every inch or so. The piece may then be bent to any curvature you like. You can put an angle on the homasote by filling in the space between the subroadbed and the homasote with plaster, etc. to get the roadbed profile you like....

One suggestion: Homasote thickness is variable and it is not manufactured to strict tolerances. Look at each piece you are going to buy carefully. Reject any that have big dips and bumps outright. On the pieces you buy, Take a straight edge and lay it out along the length of your homasote pieces and look for dips and bumps. You will undoubterdly find them. If you can sand them out, do so, if not cut out that section...
I am doing this part of the layout right now myself. I have developed a dislike for the stuff, but I don't like foam or the other alternatives (plus, I may handlay some switches). After the homasote is glued down, use the straight edge again and sand out any bumps or shim low spots.

The other alternative is homabed. Pre sanded, beveled homasote. Drawback: cost. Advantages: many. I have chosen to cut my own and kerf strips for curves. Made the neighbors real happy with all the dust. Fortunately the rain quickly washed away all the evidence.

Good luck,

[Anonymous]

Gents, Great tips and I thank you. Guy I really like the idea of placing cuts into the strips to allow you to bend the sections... smart indeed. Will print and save this for when I begin. Thanks again.

Dave

[Anonymous]

My present layout started with 3/4" plywood as a subroad bed with homasote as the roadbed. I do not handlay track, but do spike down the flex track. This was solid as a rock, stable as the Rock of Gibraltar. A friend (?) pointed and laughed at my roadbed. So I try foam. Not as strong as the plywood, but really ok. Cutting 2" foam with a table saw? Blue scuz sticking to everything in the garage where the saw is located. Tried a little cork, a little foam and went back to homasote on top of the foam to hold the track. Then I did what all good modellers do, I began re-building the layout. Track plan stayed the same, the old roadbed came out and was replaced with 3/4' x 1/4" splines bent to shape and glued. This provided the equivalent of easements into each and every curve and made for better flowing track. The actual track mounting surface was constructed using, of all things, Upson board. Upson board is one of those "never use for trackwork" kind of products. I ripped 1/4" x 1/4" strips and glued them, sawn edge up, to the spined roadbed. Then I painted the Upson board with a mixture of 50% carpenters glue and 50% water and let it dry. Sanded the top suface, and laid the track. Talk about hold spikes, and as solid as a political party (well, I thought it was funny). I have also rebuilt my hidden double ended staging. I used 3" foam cut into 3/8" wide strips. I built a spline bed with these. I spiked the track directly to the foam, then put a drop of gap filling super glue under every second tie. All of these systems work quite well. I do handlay all my turnouts to fit each situation, so I have a preference for the wood spined roadbed with the glue treated Upson board as a base for track, but that is just my preference. I can honestly say I do not understand the emotions expressed when people talk about track roadbed. The old systems work very well, and the new systems seem to work every bit as well. Foam is the easiest to handle and work with, and provided the thickness is sufficient, is as strong as you will ever require. I would suggest you make up your own mind as to which system yoiu prefer, which system works best for you, then go for it. I do believe in model railroading there is no "best" way for everyone, there are just personal preferences.

I keep reading questions about achieveing the 45 degree bevel on the roadbed. I might suggest you purchase a small router (under $40) and a 45 degree chamfer bit with a ball bearing guide and use this to create the bevel on the roadbed. Used carefully, this little weapon will chamfer anything that is currently being used as the base for track laying.

I appologize to those whose egos I may have trampled on, whose Holy Grail may have been dented.

Tom

[claycts]

Ok I have decided to use the homosote on 1/2" OSB. The weapon of choice will be a ROTO ZIP for the cuts. I have a set of plastic templates for all the raduis and turnouts. Will draw thr track plan 1-1 on brown paper to save the material. I will tape the outline on the floor to make sure I have acces space. And lat but not least pray to John Allen for guidence!!!!

[Anonymous]

Has anyone tried a foam cutter to shape their subroadbed or roadbed? Seems to me that this would eliminate the pink or grey fuzz all over everything, and get the job done quickly and efficiently. I also appreciate the suggestion of using the Roto Zip thing, I have one I've used for many projects over the years, such as Cub Scout Pinewood Derby cars, never thought of using it for layout work, good idea!

[Anonymous]

claycts, great tips from all concerned. I have learned more than I have contributed, and that is 100% profit. And, speaking of "prophet," John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid (sp.?) Empire is about as good as it gets (my opinion)! Dave, did you know that J. Allen was a professional photographer as well as a genius at modeling? There may be "short cuts," better materials, improved hi-tech tools but the craft of John Allen "will live forever." It is all the more to his credit that he was able to acheive what he did in the era of the 1940's thru the 50's. How do you like the way he mixed narrow gauge (On3) with standard (turn-outs and all)? Don't know if you are "into" scratch building? A fellow by the name of Richard Wagner (same "era" as J. Allen) wrote the "Book" on passenger car building. Some articles may be found in archived M. R.'s circa the 1950's. Best of luck with your Pike and if no other "words of wisdom" than "be patient" come from these forums, that alone should suffice. Meet you in the Club Car. T.D.K.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter

I only hear one major complaint about Homosote. It expands from moisture either from wet scenery or high humidity. However sealing it with paint or shellac before laying it works to prevent swelling.

Not true! I believe their website says it expands a maximum of 1/8" over eight feet.
The wood used in the benchwork expanding, contracting, warping, etc. moves more than the Homasote and causes the Homasote to get the blame.

This is a perennial thread on many lists. Finally, the moderator of the Layout Design List on Yahoo created a file addressing the discussion, and directs any new mention of it to read that file. Here is a cut-n-paste of the file. Hope this helps.

............
Layout Design SIG E-Mail Discussion Group Frequent Topics

Subject: Homasote and Homabed
Date: September 3, 2003
Author: Mike Davison


Introduction

Discussions about Homasote and Homabed come up frequently in
the Layout Design SIG E-Mail Discussion Group and there is
some controversy surrounding these products. This memo attempts
to defuse the debate by listing the facts and loosely describing
the viewpoints.

Homasote is a sound-deadening board made from recycled newsprint.
The product has been manufactured for nearly 100 years and has
been used as a model railroad roadbed for roughly 30 years. [1]

Homabed is a model railroad roadbed created by milling Homasote
to the desired shape and thickness. This product has been avail-
able from several subsequent manufacturers for at 15+ years. [2]

Throughout the remainder of this memo the term 'Homasote' will be
used to refer to both Homasote sheets from the Homasote Company
and Homabed roadbed from California Roadbed Company.

Dimensional Stability Concerns

Since Homasote is constructed from recycled paper fiber there is
naturally a concern that it will expand and contract with humidity
swings and prove dimensionally unsuitable for model railroad roadbed.
Rich Weyand outlined this issue nicely in a message posted to the
Layout Design SIG E-Mail Discussion Group [3]. A few key points
from Rich's note:

Rail expands and contracts with temperature. The actual
coefficient of expansion with temperature of nickel is .000007
per degree Fahrenheit, or about .0025" per 3 foot length over
a ten degree temperature swing. Note this is positive with
temperature

Wood contracts with loss of moisture primarily *across* the
grain. Cellulose fibers themselves do not contract in length,
and the length of wood with variations in humidity is pretty
stable, though by no means absolutely so.


The manufacturer of Homasote gives the following specification:
Expansion from 50%-90% relative humidity (max.): 0.30%. This
correlates to a difference of .1" per 3 foot length, or 40
times as much as the expansion of the rail over a ten degree
temperature swing.

Other Concerns

Homasote typically has some variation in thickness. This product
limitation sometimes requires one to add shims under sheet edges.
Homabed is milled to tighter tolerances so normally this problem
is reduced. However, Jim Mansfield has found Homabed to have wide
thickness variances of up to .239" and burrs of up to .040".

Cutting Homasote with a conventional saw blad is messy. However,
toothless or "knife" saber saw blades will cut Homasote just fine
without a mess and almost as rapidly as with blades with teeth.
Nearly every hardware store carries them. Homabed generally does not
have a problem with dust since it is already milled to size.

Positive Homasote Characteristics

Homasote has been found to hold track spikes tightly and provide
a solid base for hand-laying track. It has become the time-tested
favorite for many that hand-lay track.

Homasote provides a solid, yet noise-absorbing roadbed. The product
is, after all, designed to deaden noise transmission.

Recommended Installation Methods

In order to combat the tendency of Homasote to expand and contract
with humidity changes it is essential that one glue it to a solid
base. After gluing, the Homasote should be sanded lightly to remove
minor thickness variations and burrs. Those that have glued Homasote
to 3/4" plywood have reported good results. For example, Andy
Sperandeo has provided a detailed description of the method he has
used successfully [4]

Numerous people have reported bad results with unsupported Homasote
and even advocates of Homasote state that it must be supported.

Summary

The value of Homasote and Homabed is controversial in our hobby.
Clearly unsupported Homasote sheets perform poorly and heavily
supported Homasote performs well. The performance of the product
between unsupported and heavily supported is the gray area where
the debate occurs.

Searching for 'Homasote' or 'Homabed' in the archives of the
Layout Design SIG E-Mail Discussion Forum will yield many
messages on the topic. This forum has existed for roughly 10
years, as of 2003, and the topic comes up several times per year.

References

[1] Homasote Company - http://www.homasote.com/about.html

[2] California Roadbed Company - (http://www.homabed.com

[3] Weyand, Rich, Posting to Layout Design SIG Email Forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ldsig/message/44604

[4] Sperandeo, Andy, Posting to Layout Design SIG Email Forum
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ldsig/message/44615

[rrinker]

I'll say here what I didn't want to say on the LDSIG board when that was first posted, because it was already at flame war status and I wasn't going to fuel the fire any more.

How can you look at that data and then say that it is FALSE that the homosote is moisture sensitive? .1" over a 3' run is a BIG change, easily leading to track kinking. The rail movement of less than 3 thousandth of an inch over 3' is barely enough to close up an unfilled gap.

Experience at the club I used to belong to: The benchwork was stronger than a lot of houses I've seen. Craig Bisgeier likes to talk about making VERY sturdy benchwork to avoid problems of people leaning on the railroad, or a person tripping and catching themselves, or something falling, etc. He builds some VERY sturdy benchwork. The stuff at the club though, made Craig's work look like matchsticks. On top of that went 3/4" plywood (genuine 3/4, one of this 11/16 stuff). Then came the homosote, with a LOT of fasteners. No way could this stuff move. Or so we thought. The mistake was putting down the homosote in the middle of the summer, high humidity (90%+) with all the doors and windows open since we didn't have air conditioning. We did have heat though - come winter and the turning on of the heater, the entire end of the peninsula that ended under the heater had some major dimensional changes from drying out. There is no way this was caused by the underlying benchwork moving, it was the homosote shrinking.

Someone else on the LDSIG posted about a submerge test of a chunk of homosote. I'm not sure what kind of homosote this guy used, but if I took a bucket of water and stuck a piece of homosote in it, it sure as heck is going to expand, in all dimensions. And wind up a pulpy mess if I leave it in there too long.

I will say though, that in the 60's my neighbor built a playhouse for his daughters, all siding was homosote on a stick frame. It lasted for over 30 years, as long as he kept paint on it, inside and out. Can't really tell if there were any dimensional changes, but properly protected at least it did not deteriorate when exposed to the elements. We're talking occasional subzero with snow in winter all the way to upper 90's and 100% humidity in summer in this area.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Unless I missed something in the statistics for Homasote (as per CB&Q Guy); there was no mention of "treated" (shellac, varnish, sealers, et al.) Homasote data. It, no doubt, would be worth our while to visit the "Layout Design SIG E-mail Discussopn Group" on Yahoo that Paul kindly furnished for any incomplete data. Thanks Paul.

[claycts]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted D. Kramer

Unless I missed something in the statistics for Homasote (as per CB&Q Guy); there was no mention of "treated" (shellac, varnish, sealers, et al.) Homasote data. It, no doubt, would be worth our while to visit the "Layout Design SIG E-mail Discussopn Group" on Yahoo that Paul kindly furnished for any incomplete data. Thanks Paul.

The FACTS on treated homosote is it takes on the dimension it had WHEN TREATED. The prefered treatment is a clear floor sealer, both sides. I have Water based and oil based remaining from the "honey dew" list. I will try both and put it outside to test it. My room is temp controlled to 70 deg all year. Has it's own AC system so I should not have a problem. BUT I want to know also.[:D]

[Anonymous]

claycts, there is nothing like "on location," experimentation. Although I have employed "treated Homasote" (clear varnish-shellac) with success in my area, I would be curious how an outdoor Latex base sealer (paint) would hold-up in high humidity. I'm only thinking about easy application and clean-up. I was pleasently surprised how well Latex "outdoor textured house paint" over styrofoam roadbed [G gauge] endured the weather in Florida. However, I wouldn't use Homasote outside under any circumstances. Please keep us informed when "the results are in." Good luck.

[dehusman]

One of the best ways to use homasote is in spline roadbed ( see MRP 2005, p 42 "Desigining the Deepwater District using CAD" by Gerry Albers for photos of a layout using it.

Dave H.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

I'll say here what I didn't want to say on the LDSIG board when that was first posted, because it was already at flame war status and I wasn't going to fuel the fire any more.

How can you look at that data and then say that it is FALSE that the homosote is moisture sensitive? .1" over a 3' run is a BIG change, easily leading to track kinking. The rail movement of less than 3 thousandth of an inch over 3' is barely enough to close up an unfilled gap.

--Randy

POINT 1" seems very miniscule to me. Bottom line around here in north central Illinois is that the vast majority of modelers use Homasote for their basement layouts, no dehumidifiers, no painting or sealing, and NO TRACK KINKING! We even left scraps of it outside over one winter and spring with no visible warping or deterioration. Several years back I had an upstairs water line leak down onto the raw Homasote on the layout in the basement. I sucked up the puddle and blew a fan on it over night. Track didn't budge -- period! Personal experience and observation over the past 15 years is good enough for me.

If you will be able to sleep better at night having painted your Homasote, than by all means do so. I won't be.

[Anonymous]

CBQGuy, North-Central Illinois? DeKalb perchance? 45% humidity? 25 d. dew point? Sounds like MR heaven. Perhaps the [sealing, painting; Homasote, Polystyrene] questions are more on the acedemic side rather than an emotional issue. As mentioned before, there are several different grades of these materials. I personally have never had a problem with Homasote (inside) but obviously other's have. Six months of sub-tropical rain showers everyday (90 deg. F.) will take a toll on any material...even concrete. Some sort of protection from Nature's errosive elements should bring a good night's sleep to any one...sorta like waxing a car...seems like a "no brainer." Have a happy.

[claycts]

1 Piece of HOMOSOTE (.523 thick Measured with calipers) length 36" width 12" (checked with a laser and didgital tape)
2. Painted piece (1) one side with CLEAR FLOOR PAINT OIL BASED (varithane)
3. Painted piece #2 (2) sides with same
4. Control piece #3 BARE
PIece #1 .523 No change
Piece #2 .516 No change
Piece #3 .543 No change
NO DIFFERENCE in any of the 3 pieces in 1 day will check after the weekend