Looking for comments and suggestions -
This is HO, with 27-28 inch min. radii. It's primarily for passenger trains, but with some industrial trains and switching - mainly on the middle level. The bottom level is staging, while the top level is the primary passenger station with a coach yard on top of the helix (yet to be developed). Both middle and top levels use a double-track mainline with peninsula where the double-track mainline circles the outside perimeter of a helix.
In trying to keep the helix uncomplicated, it's only a single track in two stages. One from the staging level to the middle level and then one from the middle level to the top level. So the middle level has two entrances/exits into either a bottom helix or top helix, while staging and top levels only have one entry/exit into a helix. Crossovers at the neck of the peninsula and a wye on the staging level provide train reversing so that no train goes into the tail-first. The plan also allows for optional point-to-point operation from staging all the way to the top level and back down.
Three-foot lift-out sections are used at the door on the middle and top levels.
It's basically for single user operation, with the double-track mainlines providing passenger train railfanning, while I mess around with yard switching or the turntable. There are two pinch points around the sides of the peninsula, but I think the clearances are OK elsewhere.
The benchwork outline is only valid for the middle level, but that's the one that has the most width. I haven't quite developed the structure around the helix/peninsula. I'm going to have to resort to paper dolls to visualize it better, because I'm having a heck of a time trying to visualize it in Anyrail without the ability to create 3D sections and elevations views.
I have a request in on the AnyRail forum for Walthers Wyes. They don't have them in the libraries yet, but Walthers has both a #3 and #4 Wye. One will be used on the staging level insted of the #6 shown heading to the peninsula.
TripleDeck-Staging.pdf
TripleDeck-Middle.pdf
TripleDeck-Top.pdf
Staging:
Middle:
Top:
Interesting concept. 27" radius is pretty tight for passenger train operation unless you are using "shorty" cars. It looks like you could adjust to use a 32 inch minimum radius with 2.5" centers by shifting the peninsula to dead center. If you are a single operator, I'd sacrifice the aisle pinch points to gain the extra radius.
Ray
Colorado Ray Interesting concept. 27" radius is pretty tight for passenger train operation unless you are using "shorty" cars. It looks like you could adjust to use a 32 inch minimum radius with 2.5" centers by shifting the peninsula to dead center. If you are a single operator, I'd sacrifice the aisle pinch points to gain the extra radius. Ray
Thanks for the comment, Ray!
Actually, only the inside loops at the left are 27-1/2" radius, while the Staging Level wye has about 28" in the bottom left corner. I can probably tweak the Staging Level to get them up to 30" if I work at it a bit. Maybe I can do the other levels, too. There's a short section of straight in the curves at top left on the Middle and Top, so there's still some wiggle room, I think.
Every other curve is 30" min or larger. The helix is set at 30", too.
Maybe consider flipping the entry door so it opens out. Takes an hour of work with modest tools, but the benefit is worth the effort.
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What are the heights of your three levels? I am 71 and stooping hurts. Some my age have chosen a level suitable for sitting in a chair. I prefer to stand, but I cannot say I am a fan of 3 levels.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
You've only got 3 years on me.
32, 45, and 60 inches, as it stands now in the design. It's really a Double-Decker with a lower level only for staging. So, it's maybe not what one would refer to as a completely operational Triple-Deck. I'll probably run the DCC bus wiring above along the wall, in addition to having the switch machines and wiring on top of the staging level.
About the door - you are correct and it's something to consider. Removing it altogether is probably the better option, but I've got a dog and grandchildren to worry about, so being able to have an operating door for security is a necessary evil. I'll check into it, though. It would have to be flipped 180 so that it not only opens to the outside, but the hinges would have to be toward the top of the plan view. That's how it would work in flipping the door anyway, right?
I'm not sure fiddling with the door would get you much. Still gonna be a broad sweep of a curve and a lift out or swing gate sort of thing. A straight removable section (as currently shown) would be easier to construct and/or align than a curved section.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICKStill gonna be a broad sweep of a curve and a lift out or swing gate sort of thing. A straight removable section (as currently shown) would be easier to construct and/or align than a curved section.
I have a couple of curved-track liftouts, and have never had any problems with either of them...
...and also hung the entryway door to open outward.
Wayne
doctorwayne ROBERT PETRICK Still gonna be a broad sweep of a curve and a lift out or swing gate sort of thing. A straight removable section (as currently shown) would be easier to construct and/or align than a curved section. ...and also hung the entryway door to open outward. Wayne
ROBERT PETRICK Still gonna be a broad sweep of a curve and a lift out or swing gate sort of thing. A straight removable section (as currently shown) would be easier to construct and/or align than a curved section.
I've seen your photos of your double-level liftouts before and studied them at length. Thank you for sharing! However, I'm going to go with the straight style using DCC Concepts PowerPoints, as shown recently by Larry Puckett on youtube.
Robert is right in this instance, partly because of the double-track main that will be needed on the lift-out sections and partly because I can't swap the door. Studying it recently, that entry actually sits in a space you might as well call a door pocket already. There's not really another door, but the aisleway is only a bit over 3 feet and runs at a 90 deg. jog (down in the plans) just outside of the door entry. It's going to be difficult enough as it is, to get benchwork through there. Placing the door on the outside would make a cramped space even worse to get things in and out of this room.
I like your layout here. I have a room that is 21 X 18.5 so this would work very well in my room> I have a door in the same place, mine swings out. I really like this and will be starting on something like this in a few days. I have searched so much to find something like this. I would like to share progress with you and the others here, pictures and updates. Looking forward to reading more from you soon.
Ok so I have been woking on this layout. I have a rom that is 17.5 by 15.5, not what I wrote earlier so I don't know where I got those mesurments from. Anyway, you can do two helix or do 2% grade around room to get more real estate. I got the sizes down for the middle section but I can't upload the photo to show you. Let me know if you want to me send it to your email address.
RobRupo168 Ok so I have been woking on this layout. I have a rom that is 17.5 by 15.5, not what I wrote earlier so I don't know where I got those mesurments from. Anyway, you can do two helix or do 2% grade around room to get more real estate. I got the sizes down for the middle section but I can't upload the photo to show you. Let me know if you want to me send it to your email address.
Thanks for the comments! I have a later version that I'll post soon. I'm not sure how to squeeze the middle section. I focused more on the outer walls to get them at 1 foot width or less around either side of the helix. The helix must be 30-inch radius in my case (lots of 85 ft passenger cars), so I was determined not to go below that.
Allowing for a 5-inch width around the center line of the 30-inch helix means the outside reversing loops are at about ~ 34 and 36 inch radii. That puts a 6'-2" circle in the middle of an 11 foot room. 2 feet for the track on each side wall added to that leaves less than 2.5 feet of clearance on each side of peninsula. Tight, but do-able and I've seen much worse on many of John Armstrong's plans.
Anyway, I'm about to start benchwork, having acquired a bunch of Walthers code 83 track and turnouts. I'll try to post more updates.
I am working on a partial double deck layout and I'm nearly 4 years into building my layout and the mainline is finally laid and wired and I'm working on scenery subbase. My issue is lack of hobby time which is why it's taken so long to get this far. So hopefully you have a lot more time than I do with a tripple deck planned!
I set my absolute minimum at 32" because I've read that Walthers passenger cars are fussy about tight curves. Most of my passenger cars are Walthers. Even at 32" minimum, some comment that that is barely enough. Technically there only one curve all trains must travel through that is 32"R, and the rest are a bit larger. My helix is 34" radius - a kit helix from Trackside Scenery (Gator board).
In order to maintain the 32" minimum, I have pinch points around the penninsula that are 24" wide. I'd like wider but that was all I could manage.
If your curious, here is a link:
https://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-topic-blog?page=5
Cheers,Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Jim, I've only skimmed your posts on the rescue forum, but I noticed you somehow went from saying a helix was impossible to building one at 34" radius. Those Trackside Scenics helix pieces looked inviting, but it would cost me over $500 for the number of loops in the one I have designed. I don't know, for the price of plywood these days that may still be a savings. I'll have to think about it.
About the Walthers cars - I've read an awful lot and most of the troubles seem to be getting them around 24" radii out of the box. I concluded that they should handle 30" OK. If not, I'll cut where needed to get them to work. Most of my stock are Rapido IC cars, all of the new Atlas heavyweight versions, and then a couple of IHC and Rivarossi full sets. I have four of the Walthers heavyweights, but I haven't been too impressed with them, especially with the way the prices have been going on ebay - outrageous! I have none of their IC smooth sides, because I'm not going to pay $150 each for them.
I noticed the Rapido cars have made their way up to $200 each on ebay, now. Luckily, I bought all of mine before that.
As for the layout - I have nothing more than 2 feet wide and most of it is only 1 foot wide. My benchwork plans are going to center around wall mounting with legs where needed in a few places. Of course, the center section and helix will be free-standing.
P.S. I'll read the rest of your layout thread when I get a chance. It looks very interesting and you've done a lot of great work!
IC_Tom Jim, I've only skimmed your posts on the rescue forum, but I noticed you somehow went from saying a helix was impossible to building one at 34" radius.
Jim, I've only skimmed your posts on the rescue forum, but I noticed you somehow went from saying a helix was impossible to building one at 34" radius.
I said a helix was impossible? I don't remember ever thinking that or saying it so if I was in an altered state of mine and said something like that, I'll gladly remove it.
Those Trackside Scenics helix pieces looked inviting, but it would cost me over $500 for the number of loops in the one I have designed. I don't know, for the price of plywood these days that may still be a savings. I'll have to think about it.
Yes, the Trackside Scenery helixes can add-up to a lot. When I first looked at them several years ago when I was faced into a helix I had designed into my layout back in 2018, my wife encouraged me to go that way, even though I told her it would cost well over $300. I needed to gain about 10.5 inches of elevation so it turned out with the 34" radius and extended risers, it took about 2 2/3rds turns to accomplish it. Of course if you need 5 turns or more, especially at a radius that requires 12 deck sections per turn, the cost will rise a lot.
For me it came down to time to build a helix, and since I've never built one from wood before, from scratch, I figured it would take me a lot more time, and hobby time for me is very limited because a long home improvement list my wife has.
About the Walthers cars - I've read an awful lot and most of the troubles seem to be getting them around 24" radii out of the box. I concluded that they should handle 30" OK. If not, I'll cut where needed to get them to work. Most of my stock are Rapido IC cars, all of the new Atlas heavyweight versions, and then a couple of IHC and Rivarossi full sets. I have four of the Walthers heavyweights, but I haven't been too impressed with them, especially with the way the prices have been going on ebay - outrageous! I have none of their IC smooth sides, because I'm not going to pay $150 each for them. I noticed the Rapido cars have made their way up to $200 each on ebay, now. Luckily, I bought all of mine before that.
I have noticed too that a lot of passenger cars have been shooting up in price on Ebay - even the first run of plated Walthers phase 2 and 3 Superliners are going for well over MSRP. The hardest to find are sleepers, because it seems Walthers didn't make enough sleepers and also coaches. There are tons of Diners and Sightseer lounges on Ebay. I managed to get all of the phase 1 pointless arrow cars for my Amtrak San Francisco Zephyr before they shot up. The N scale Kato Superliner 4 car sets that sold for around $75 are now priced on eBay at 2 to 3 times that price. Crazy!
I had a kind of odds space to work with and did want the longest run possible to run longish trains and seem like they are going somewhere rather than like my last layout where they went in a circle around the room twice.
Givens: Odd shaped space that was about 15' wide along much of the space and 33 feet long but at the other end a step over.
Druthers: Long as possible run with single track and passing sidings. Large staging yard, main yard with a lot of industries to switch. Minimum Radius 32" and larger where possible.
As it turns out I fit in two 21' capacity sidings and single track mainlin, fairly long staging yard with tracks ranging from 17' to 24' in length. Main yard can hold trains that are will fit into the 21' siding with a bit more room.
Past few weeks I've been installing cardboard webbing around the mainline so I have something to start with for scenery and also to protect derailed trains and keep them on the layout. I've soldered all the drops to all installed track. I've almost gotten the layout broken up into 3 power districts to help trouble shooting and hope to start testing trains by end of year.
I just installed the base for a river around the inside of a turnback curve and the end of the penninsula. I'm followning Rob Spanglers method of putting down a wood surface (Luan) and covering it with drywall mude and after than plan to paint a river bottom with acrylics similar to my last layout only a lont longer riverbed.
Just an FYI - you stated this somewhere down near the bottom of the first page:
"My room of only 10x18' really didn't have enough space for a helix so I went with 2.9% grades and a nolix. "
It sounds like you changed rooms, because now you're describing a much different size room. I guess that's the explanation that I missed.
I'm still trying to pick out wood, so there's a loooooooong way to go for me. There's this guy on Youtube, Great Northern Cascades" Great Northern Cascade Division in N scale - YouTube and I think I'm going to model my benchwork after his, even though he's doing it in N scale. It's a triple deck configuration with a middle peninsula that looks like it's working well thus far.
Your cardboard webbing is the best I've ever seen. All of the shapes are there already - as if you machined giant pieces out of MDF. You can probably just do a single layer of paper mache and still look fantastic!
IC_Tom Just an FYI - you stated this somewhere down near the bottom of the first page: "My room of only 10x18' really didn't have enough space for a helix so I went with 2.9% grades and a nolix. " It sounds like you changed rooms, because now you're describing a much different size room. I guess that's the explanation that I missed.
That would be correct. Actually sold that townhouse in 2017 and moved into a regular house with a full basement that same year, but with a longer commute to work.
The new layout designed uses a nolix to get from the staging yard up to the main yard after going through two 21' passing sidings and then a 34" helix returns the line back down to the staging yard.
I'm still trying to pick out wood, so there's a loooooooong way to go for me. There's this guy on Youtube, Great Northern Cascades" Great Northern Cascade Division in N scale - YouTube and I think I'm going to model my benchwork after his, even though he's doing it in N scale. It's a triple deck configuration with a middle peninsula that looks like it's working well thus far. Your cardboard webbing is the best I've ever seen. All of the shapes are there already - as if you machined giant pieces out of MDF. You can probably just do a single layer of paper mache and still look fantastic!
I went to Lowes and picked out 1x4 and 1x3 wood as it was more economical, but I picked through a lot to get nice true pieces but was successful.
I went a little nuts on the cardboard webbing on the 10x18' layout. This one I am working on something similar. It's either than or buy a bunch of sheets of foam and carve more than half of it away into the trash and then still need to cover it with something.
I have a lot of boxes my wife gets from Amazon so I just cut them up with utlitty knife into strips a ilttle wider than an inch and hot glue them.