Hey All I'm usuing the woodland scenics incline risers for my grades on my layout, Now here's the kicker"" I planned for a 2% grade, after finishing the track I ran my test train, I used three loco consist with a helper unit at the end of my train, by the time it began the grade the train stalled ( spinning wheels) would it be a case of needing to speed match my loco's (0r heaven forbid) my grade is too steep for my trains, I'm usuing six wheeled axel locos SD70Ace etc, I want to pull regular freight, tank trains,double stacks. Thanks Take Care Trainsrme1
Have you built a proper vertical curve easing into the grade from level, and at the top reversing that process for the new altitude? Or maybe a better first question is, where are the locos spinning, and do they all spin or just one of them, maybe the first on the grade?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
since the wheels are spinning, the tractive force is limited by the weight of the locos, typically 20-25% of its weight. adding weight will help
i've found that good spinning trucks result in rolling stock resistance of <2% their weight. trucks with > 2% resistance should be corrected
so if each car weighs 4oz, a 10 car train weighs 40 oz.
will require .8 oz of force on level ground, a loco weighing at least 3.2 oz
will require 1.6 oz on a 2% grade and a loco(s) weighing 6.4 oz
dragging a loco certainly adds resistance
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
If you're using four large diesel locomotives and they're spinning out on a 2% grade, there's something wrong - unless you're hauling like 200 cars. You mention speed-matching;if your engines aren't all at least roughly speed-matched, you probably are losing a lot of pulling power. If one or two engines run considerably faster than the others, it could be their wheels are slipping before they even get to the incline.
BTW be sure and check with a level that your benchwork is perfectly level under the WS risers and inclines. I've had situations where my benchwork wasn't perfectly flat, and had say a 1% slope that didn't affect trains until I added a 2% incline, making a 3% grade.
I model HO scale and I over weight all my cars a bit and I have a two 34” radius curve with a total of 23’ of track rising to 10” forming a 3½% grade up followed by a like distance 32” helix down on my layout. That requires a lot of drawbar.All of my locomotive power is old and I have remotored and added weight to all of them. A typical HO Rivarossi articulated out of the box has 2.8oz drawbar, a typical Athearn SD40-2 out of the box has 4.9oz drawbar.After remotoring and adding weight to my Rivarossi articulateds the drawbar is 6oz and a Athearn SD40-2 has 10oz drawbar.A pair of weighted SD40-2 will pull a lot up my grades without wheel slip, four would pull the paint off the walls. A single Rivarossi Cab Forward will easily pull 13 overweighted Heavy Weight Passenger cars up my 3½% grade.The added weight really makes a difference, just make sure you don't over load the motor or you will end up with a melted locomotive. Most new Rare Earth Magnet Can motors will do four times the work at half the current of the original motor. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, CaliforniaGrowing old is a bummer, aging is definitely not for wimps.
Three large diesels shouldn't have any difficulties on a 2% grade, unless your train is overly long.I've run over 70 cars on my steepest grade (45' long, and 2.9%, and on multiple curves) using four or five steam locomotives, and also using two very heavy Athearn U-Boats (33oz. each). My layout is strictly DC, which means that the locos are not necessarily speed-matched, but under a heavy load, they seem to co-operate rather well with one another.
I doubt that a diesel with a decoder will have much room for added weight, but there should be places where you can add at least some weight.I use lead, cast in shapes and sizes appropriate for the space that's available. There's a thread HERE which illustrates the process.
Wayne
Hello All,
I am presuming you are using DCC and not DC.
On my 4'x8' pike I have a curved 3% grade. This grade traverses the 4-foot end.
It is an asymmetrical curve composed of 22-inch and 18-inch radius sectional track with a 3-inch easement between the two curves.
The grade begins at the diverging side of an Atlas Snap Switch.
A 9-inch section of straight track acts as an easement to the curve and is also the beginning of the 3% grade.
I run a coal train of eight (8) loaded Tyco 34-foot operating hoppers. These have been upgraded to body-mounted couplers, Accurail trucks and Intermountain metal wheels.
To negotiate this curved grade three (3) GP30s are used; a single GP30 on the head end and a GP30 A-B set as pushers.
Careful throttle management is needed when negotiating this curved grade.
When not negotiating the grade the A-B set is put on the head end for an A-B-A set.
All three (3) are speed matched and consisted using Advanced consisting under a single address.
Using Advanced consisting, I can break the single GP30 from the consist for switching duties at the top of the grade for the coal unloading platform.
I too am of the opinion that if the units you are using are not speed matched they could be bucking against each other causing problems.
What method of consisting are you using? Basic, Universal, or Advanced?
The method of consisting can affect how the locos interact but speed matching is paramount to smooth operation.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
wjstixcheck with a level that your benchwork is perfectly level under the WS risers and inclines. I've had situations where my benchwork wasn't perfectly flat, and had say a 1% slope that didn't affect trains until I added a 2% incline, making a 3% grade.
And in addition to Stix's words of wisdom, don't forget: basement floors are not flat -- they generally have a slope towards the floor drain. So even perfect benchwork and easements into the slope of the 2% grade might still involve a steeper grade than you think you have. Have you tried putting a bubble level on the floor, then on the benchwork, then on the track? I use a small circular one that just a bit wider than HO gauge.
One other thing to consider is what you use to clean rail. Wahl clipper oil? There might be residue on the railhead which causes wheel slip.
The idea of speed matching is an important one. The irony is that fewer locomotives might get that same train over the hump when they are not trying to fight against a stubbornly slow loco in the consist. It might be amusing to try different combinations of your consist with the same length of train.
Dave Nelson
I would guess it is the transition. With the WS stuff you can slice and dice the begining along with cork pulled tighter so that it needs a bit of shimming and at the top you can carve it down a bit and sand down the cork a bit for the top transition.
Make sure all the loco's are pulling in the same direction.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANMake sure all the loco's are pulling in the same direction.
An obvious but good point!
I need a 5% grade on my layout where a short local will run.
Testing showed for the three locomotives I might use:
Walthers FM switcher puller three cars plus caboose.
Proto 2000 GP9 pulled four cars plus caboose.
Walthers FA1 pulled five cars plus caboose.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
And make sure the grade really turned out to be 2%.
Sheldon
Thanks for the info everyone, I'll check to see that my grade is 2% and my loco's are speed matched, that should be the only problem,I can't think of anything else that coukld be the issue,
TrainsRMe1 I planned for a 2% grade, after finishing the track I ran my test train, I used three loco consist with a helper unit at the end of my train, by the time it began the grade the train stalled ( spinning wheels) would it be a case of needing to speed match my loco's (0r heaven forbid) my grade is too steep for my trains, I'm usuing six wheeled axel locos SD70Ace etc, I want to pull regular freight, tank trains,double stacks.
I just finished running a test train on a short (about 8') 4% grade, using one Bachmann 2-8-0 (with some added weight). The trailing train was 15 cars with a total weight of 3lbs. 8oz., and was equal in length to that of the grade.That one locomotive easily took that train up the grade, with no wheelspin at all.
I'm uncertain as to your difficulties with 3 locomotives, but I didn't see any reference to how long the grade is or the length and weight of the trailing train.
When I still had those Athearn U-boats, two of them easily pulled a 24 lb. train up the 45' long 2.8% grade, with multiple curves, with no wheelslip at all.
When it comes to creating locomotive lash-ups, I match the model (GP-38-2, GP-40, etc) from the same manufacturer. I've made 4 locomotive lash-ups, but make sure you have enough power to do so without tripping the throttle's internal circuit breaker. I use MDC 260s.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
No one has mentioned curvature. What radius, how long, more then one?
All good points above. Cars should also be checked if they are all free-rolling. Two or three cars with problematic wheels can create a lot of drag.
Simon
ndbprrNo one has mentioned curvature. What radius, how long, more then one?
You're quite correct. On my test train, mentioned above, there was some curvature to the right (roughly a 32" radius) before the locomotive reached the beginning of the grade, and a similar 32" radius to the left when the locomotive crested the grade. When the entire train was on the grade, there were no curves involved.
We've yet to know how many freight cars were in the OP's train, or the weight of those cars, and no indication of curves before, during, or after the attempt to see how the train would fare during that test run.I can't imagine three supposedly large diesels (two pulling and the third one pushing) incapable of moving a train up that grade, unless the train was overly long or extremely heavy. We need more background info, I think.
HI Wayne, the grade starts in before the curve, I ran 15 cars I don't know the weight of the cars. but I did have two diesels on the point and one on the pusher ate the rear.
After re-reading the OPs original post, what struck me was...
TrainsRMe1...by the time it began the grade the train stalled ( spinning wheels)...
I recalled commenting...
jjdamnitCareful throttle management is needed when negotiating this (type of) grade.
The slippage in question might also be from a "Set-em-and-forget-em" application of the throttle.
When negotiating grades, even on model railroads, knowledge of when to throttle up, when to throttle down and when to apply dynamic braking is key to efficient and safe operation.
No matter what you run, DC or DCC, some trackage requires a more hands-on approach when it comes to throttle management.
Perhaps the OP might explore different speed scenarios to negotiate this grade.
On the 3% grade on my pike the A, A-B consist needs to be at a minimum speed at the initiation of the grade.
Once at the summit, the MU at the back needs to slow to clear the top and conquer the entire grade.
If this sequence is not followed closely the train will stall.
It will be backed down and allowed to progress under the mandated throttle movements.
Reversing down this grade has a separate set of rules but I won't get into that now...
Don't be afraid to try different throttle movements, based on how the engine(s) are responding to the load, grade, and curve.
You might want to test the MUed units on a clear track and see how they are now responding.
Have you run each individual unit on its own to see if there are any recent maintenance issues.
Failures: cracked gears, worn worm-gears, etc., can bring out the "gremlins".
I have run tests on my small home layout with a 4% grade and 18r curves. I have found that a good 4axle locomotive with all wheel drive has no problem pulling my test train of 20 Bachmann silver series 40' gondolas up the grade. These are properly weighted free rolling cars with metal wheels and are run without modification. Locomotives tested include an Atlas Trainman GP38-2, Walthers Trainline GP9m, Bachmann FT and a Bachmann GP7. All will pull the 20 cars by themselves. Switchers pull a little less, a P2K SW1200 will pull 13 cars, and a Bachmann Plymouth (a tiny diesel) will pull 8. Small steam does the worst with a Bachmann Alco 2-6-0 pulling 6 cars and a Bachmann 0-6-0 pulling 4. Ironically, getting these trains to the top of the grade isn't as difficult as getting them back down, as slack action will derail this heavy train if I am not steady on the throttle.
If you're having trouble with 6 axle diesels pulling 15 cars up the grade, maybe you need to take a truck tuner to your cars and ream out the journals to lower rolling resistance.