i guess this topic has derailed ... but the following gave me pause
richhotrainMy objective will be to sit on a chair, beer in hand, and watch trains run.
this makes me think that the layout should be designed for this. there don't need to be any sidings or industrial tracks, just track running between "parts unknown".
parts unknown could simply be staging areas.
and operation could be automated to select a train (or possibly 2), align the turnouts, run it out from staging, around the layout and back into the other side of staging.
such an automated control system could be relatively simple and would be satisfying to watch while drinking beer.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ROBERT PETRICK I'm just saying that for the vast majority of people the 'space' is fixed, and it requires a hard look at the reality of the situation. Then adjust the 'wants' to fit.
Great point. Reality is a hard thing to negotiate with.
I knew the size of my next space 4 years ago. That has given me SO MUCH TIME to think about what I really want and what can fit.
I have stated before, I am terrible at track planning, but with enough time, I seem to have resolved all my "Must Haves". I moved the location of an interchange track, figured out staging for the outside loop, managed to find a way to make the yard function, etc.
I needed to drop almost all my "Want To Haves" from the plan. Having built several previous layouts gave me the personal wisdom to know what I can live without.
Play time fun and creative model photography are the most important for me.
gregc richhotrain My objective will be to sit on a chair, beer in hand, and watch trains run. This makes me think that the layout should be designed for this. There don't need to be any sidings or industrial tracks, just track running between "parts unknown".
richhotrain My objective will be to sit on a chair, beer in hand, and watch trains run.
This makes me think that the layout should be designed for this. There don't need to be any sidings or industrial tracks, just track running between "parts unknown".
Absolutely true.
My layout room (and my entire house) are being remodeled to include wheelchair access to everything. Not needed now, but I know several people that lost access to their trains due to mobility issues.
Someday I might be sitting in my chair, beer in hand, watching my trains, and still enjoying my hobby as best as I can. Maybe at this point the industrial tracks will no longer be used.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
gregc i guess this topic has derailed ... but the following gave me pause richhotrain My objective will be to sit on a chair, beer in hand, and watch trains run. this makes me think that the layout should be designed for this. there don't need to be any sidings or industrial tracks, just track running between "parts unknown". parts unknown could simply be staging areas. and operation could be automated to select a train (or possibly 2), align the turnouts, run it out from staging, around the layout and back into the other side of staging. such an automated control system could be relatively simple and would be satisfying to watch while drinking beer.
I find myself feeling guilty about my current layout.
It is a large layout, and it is set up to run trains in and out of a 10-track passenger train station. It has a large engine servicing facility featuring a 130' turntable and a 9-stall roundhouse. It has a 6-track coach yard and a 6-track freight yard. It has 11 large freight houses complete with sidings to load and unload LCL cars.
That said, I use none of it. I am exhausted from a 3-year effort to build the layout and test the track work, the locomotives, and the rolling stock. I keep telling myself, let's go down to the layout and use all of these features. But, so far, I haven't done it.
Rich
Alton Junction
rich
someone on the forum would probably love to come over and help you operate
gregc rich someone on the forum would probably love to come over and help you operate
angelob6660 San Francisco Zephyr is the correct name for the Amtrak California Zephyr. It was renamed in 1984 after DRG&W give up on passenger service.
San Francisco Zephyr is the correct name for the Amtrak California Zephyr. It was renamed in 1984 after DRG&W give up on passenger service.
I'll go with Amtrak California Zephyr which is the name I mentioned earlier and is the correct name of the train I am modeling on the D&RGW when it began running across the system in July 1983
From the wiki:
In 1983, the D&RGW elected to join Amtrak, citing increasing losses in passenger operations. Amtrak re-routed the San Francisco Zephyr over the D&RGW's Moffat Subdivision between Denver and Salt Lake City, its original preference from 1971. The change was scheduled for April 25, but a mudslide at Thistle, Utah, closed the line and delayed the change until July 16. With the change of route, Amtrak renamed the train as the California Zephyr.[7]
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I'm going from memory but I think in the first Railroads You Can Model going way back to the 1970s, the Tehacapi Loop had such a concept. It had staging yards at either end and the loop was used as a stage for a parade of trains going back and forth over the loop. I think the original 101 Track Plans book had a similar concept. I have both those books packed away and I would need to find them to verify that. This kind of operations doesn't require switching at all. Trains appear on stage in a logical sequence. Tehacapi was a single track line but had a passing siding that would allow trains in opposite directions to meet.
PS. Is there anything that you can do while drinking beer that isn't satisfying?
Before building, it helps to actually draw out how big the layout will be as well of how much space you have. Keep in mind as it grows you'll have to rewire track circuits and possibly update your control system if you're running DCC.
ATSFGuy Before building, it helps to actually draw out how big the layout will be as well of how much space you have.
Before building, it helps to actually draw out how big the layout will be as well of how much space you have.
ATSFGuyBefore building, it helps to actually draw out how big the layout will be as well of how much space you have.
I'm no good at drawing track plans, so I built the whole layout full size out of cardboard!
The topic of this thread, no matter how hard to actually define, is directly related to my idea that size and complexity are separate, and with Brent's (BATMAN) question about how many turnouts do you have per sq ft.
Turnouts are a measure of complexity on a model railroad.
Lastspikemike - my average train is 20' long - 10 x 20 is not going to do it.........
But Mike, you are correct about some of your viewing observations. Which tie directly into my approach of only modeling one "place" and letting the trains come and go. Even if that place modeled is pretty big.
On my new layout there will be about 910 sq ft of benchwork, or, about 160 scale acres, not really all that much in real life.
The little town we live near is 4,000 acres, and it is a little town.......
Complexity - so, if a model railroad has a 8 track double ended yard, that requires 16 turnouts. Lets a say a medium sized layout only has room for that yard to be 12' long.
But then the modeler get three times as much space. He has several choices.
He can try to model the other end of the line, by installing a second yard, with another 16 turnouts,
OR
He can make the one yard 25' long so it can handle more realistic trains.
He can see how much more trackage in can cram in the new larger space,
He can let things "breath" with better modeling of the those non railroad things that surround the tracks. He can use larger curves, bigger turnouts, longer sidings, etc.
His layout will be three times the size but very likely no more that 1-1/2 times as complex, and no where near as "complex per sq ft".
So my needs are:
Long trains, 35 to 50 cars, to get the effect of the 50-70 cars trains typical of the era I model, pulled by 3-4 diesels or often two steamers.
Good display running and operating session running - so my plan has five display loops where the trains can just run like a "Christmas Garden".
Signals and CTC for those operating sessions.
A nice size ISL (industrial switching layout) within the main layout, that can function with little or no interference to the mainline.
Deep visual scenes, most will be 3' of more, in a few spots the scenes will be 5-10 feet deep.
Most of you have seen the track plan, it will be "complex" enough. But considering its size, it could have been way more complex, in fact much of the complexity that does exist in the plan is in the staging tracks - hidden from view.
I can't answer the OP's question for him, but I have answered it for myself.
When we were shopping for this home, I actually rejected some with larger possible train rooms/basements.
My wife and I had very specific goals and a good understanding of our needs and wants. It was important that every aspect of the house be the right size. 1500 sq ft is the right size train room for me. 1000 sq ft could have been made to work, that's how big the old layout room was.
I know that with my skills and experiance I can get the benchwork for the new layout built relatively quickly, and get part of the layout running fairly easily.
This layout will seem large to many, and small to some who have much more space devoted to their layouts, but for me it will be just right.
The last two pieces of my "retirement move puzzle" are coming together this month, and then layout construction will get serious.
Sheldon
I'm vaxxed. I'll come over
Estimating the layout space I truly need, rather than I want?
I am not really interested in running long trains. I prefer trains of two or three carriages long or four to five hoppers, boxcars in length. I like them to run thru scenery. A reason to be there.
I need a layout that is easy to operate by myself; yet can be operated by upto three people. (When the grandchildren are here.) Therefore, as much as I would like a huge area for a layout, the 11ft x 8ft space I have is ideal.
If I did have a bigger room I would still run short trains. They have (to me) a certain charm.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
NorthBritYet can be operated by upto three people. (When the grandchildren are here.)
Uh-oh, something I had not considered in my design!
SeeYou190 NorthBrit Yet can be operated by upto three people. (When the grandchildren are here.) Uh-oh, something I had not considered in my design! -Kevin
NorthBrit Yet can be operated by upto three people. (When the grandchildren are here.)
Oh you must. You must.
Mindst you 'they are in charge'. Models of Superheroes (any scale) all over the place. Your locomotives will travel faster than you ever thought. Then when they have to leave and you ask them to put the locomotive in a certain place, that locomotive suddenly can travel at two miles an hour.
Great fun.
NorthBritThen when they have to leave and you ask them to put the locomotive in a certain place, that locomotive suddenly can travel at two miles an hour.
Oh that sounds like so much fun.
My neighbors behind me have a child about 5 or 6 that visits every couple of weeks. I try to be outside and listen to the negotiations when they are trying to get her out of the swimming pool. What fun!
SeeYou190My neighbors behind me have a child about 5 or 6 that visits every couple of weeks. I try to be outside and listen to the negotiations when they are trying to get her out of the swimming pool. What fun! -Kevin
So many parents let the kids dictate to them. My little sister would be nice, but very firm and take no BS.
riogrande5761So many parents let the kids dictate to them. My little sister would be nice, but very firm and take no BS.
Not the parents. Either a neice or a very young little sister.
It is absolutely adorable to listen to her not want to get out of the pool.
Cuteness on level 11.
It helps to realize that the layout is not a museum exhibit.
I had spent hours getting some trees just right. When my five-year-old granddaughter reached across the track, she knocked a bunch of stuff over.
Normally, if I had done that, I would have been upset with myself. But I didn't mind that she did it. She was amazed at watching trains moving, and she loved the whole layout.
Fixing some trees and rerailing some cars when she left did not hurt me at all.
York1 John