I just had an idea on how I could expand my future layout project if I can provide a easy access pathway to behind my bar area without using a duckdown. I need to maintain a doorway type opening and came up with the above idea. The section would only be about 6-8" wide, enough for two lines of N scale track and roadbeds, and need to be a minimum of 24" long (for the opening) but a 32" opening might be better.
I know I would need to provide jumper wires on the hinge side to electrially connect the drop down section of track, but am wondering if there is anything else I need to consider to make this work. I am thinking I would have track on a bed of cork or something on a piece of plywood, which is then further supported by a 2x6 on its flat side.
You should consider a power kill that shuts off power for several feet on either side of the drop-down, to prevent trains from entering the gap when it is open. Of course, that's an opportunity to add signals, too, because who doesn't love signals?
The open side probably needs a better alignment fixture, too. Particularly in N-scale, it must line up perfectly, horizontally and vertically, every time.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
In the MRVP videos David Popp used a barrel bolt on the right side of your drawing to secure the drop down.
On the left side he imbeds a microswitch which turns on, when the drop down is in the up position and powers the on coming track.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I’ve made two lift up sections in my 69 years of model railroading. 1) HO 34” x 8” lift up for my first layout, an around the room shelf layout (1951). 2) G gauge Howe Truss Bridge 60” x 8” between our patio and fence with a 45° curve at each end of the bridge (2004).I made a latch to hold the lift ups in the up position. I used ¼-20 bolts for alignment pins on both lift ups. For some reason I never felt warm and fuzzy with a drop down. I made an electrical interlock to kill power to the approach track to prevent anything from taking the big drop to concrete, very important!! On a drop down you have to protect both tracks, only one with a lift up. I kill the power to 35’ of approach track when the bridge is up, the track is attached to a shelf on the fence leading to our garden. DO NOT TRUST YOUR MEMORY to protect your trains from the big drop!! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I was indeed thinking about the alignment aspect after posting this. I think if I use a heavy enough hinge that side will be ok, but on the open end I was thinking about maybe a wedge type dovetail effect in the boards so it starts out loose and tightens into final alignment as it closes fully.
I have some woodworking experience and even a few dovetail jigs so I should be able to come up with something. I had also thought about using pins and even the barrel bolt idea too, but the simpler the better I think.
As far as the switch to kill power on that track section when the "bridge" is up (or down) that is an awesome idea and the exact type of feedback I was hoping for, thanks for the idea guys. I do like the idea of wiring to kill power some feet away from the "bridge" as well, maybe 6 feet on either side?? Also the use of signaling is another great idea, keep 'em coming.
I'll try mocking something up over the weeknd and see what I can come up with.
Cisco_Kid I just had an idea on how I could expand my future layout project if I can provide a easy access pathway to behind my bar area without using a duckdown.
I just had an idea on how I could expand my future layout project if I can provide a easy access pathway to behind my bar area without using a duckdown.
It was wired to provide track power and signal power on the lift out section. It did not require jumper plugs or other wire connectors since I had installed metal plates on the underside of both ends of the liftout that mated with metal plates on the layout itself where the ends of the liftout sat. The metal plates conducted the electricity necessary to power the liftout.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Duckunders should not be feared unless you have physical disabilities. On my old layout, I built a liftout section that housed two bascule bridges, and it spanned an aisle that led to the far end of my layout - - installed at an angle no less.
Duckunders should not be feared unless you have physical disabilities. On my old layout, I built a liftout section that housed two bascule bridges, and it spanned an aisle that led to the far end of my layout - - installed at an angle no less.
It's not that I fear them, it is just there is some other equipment back there that might require a regular size opening every once in awhile.
For normal use I would probably just duck under it, but I can't permanently block that area off. From what I am reading from you and others I might consider changing it to a lift up design, or perhaps even a drop in section.
Thanks for the feedback it gives me more options to consider.
Lastspikemike Drop in (lift outs) are similar to drop downs.
Drop in (lift outs) are similar to drop downs.
Yeah, I might just try going the drop-in (lift out) route as then I could make a better wedge joint to align that section better. I was looking at some hinges today at the local hardware store and they all have too much lateral slop to them, so using a hinge I would need to take measures to align both sides anyway. Seems it might be a bit too much to tackle on my first attempt at building a layout.
I can mock this section up easily enough with a few peices of scap lumber and see what I can come up with, thanks for all the input.
Cisco_KidI think if I use a heavy enough hinge that side will be ok...
The key is to get the hinge attachment on one side -- probably the fixed side? -- so you can perform fine vertical and horizontal position tweaking without having to shim the hinge screws or some other disastrous death-march progressive loosening adjustment. Then if the hinge wears or stretches, or humidity makes the benchwork warp slightly, you can make adjustments to keep running trains smoothly.
, but on the open end I was thinking about maybe a wedge type dovetail effect in the boards so it starts out loose and tightens into final alignment as it closes fully. I have some woodworking experience and even a few dovetail jigs so I should be able to come up with something.
Think about a vertical dovetail engagement at the hinge side, too, perhaps with a vertical leveling screw on each outboard side: the heel of the board would automatically center vertically to position as it came up, and the extensions would come to rest on firm vertical stops.
I had also thought about using pins and even the barrel bolt idea too, but the simpler the better I think.
As far as the switch to kill power on that track section when the "bridge" is up (or down) that is an awesome idea and the exact type of feedback I was hoping for, thanks for the idea guys. I do like the idea of wiring to kill power some feet away from the "bridge" as well, maybe 6 feet on either side??
Also the use of signaling is another great idea, keep 'em coming.
No one has mentioned the most obvious $10 safeguard you should install: careful and effective cushioning on all the floor areas (and perhaps on the benchwork sides) where anything coming to the gap at any speed might fall or ricochet. (This applies anywhere on a layout as far as I'm concerned: it's surprising how many people will spend hundreds of hours detailing something and leave a concrete floor waiting to undo it all at a stroke...)
Incidentally this is another example of how 'signal automation' using something like an Arduino can be better than having to remember to hand-switch everything to run trains...
After building my truss bridge and putting it in place with the tracks aligned I drilled four ¼” holes, two in each end, to firmly keep the track aligned. Once the bridge is lowered I push bolts through the holes. I use wingnuts on the non hinged end to keep the bridge secure. The bridge is over a walk way and I don’t want someone lifting the bridge without thinking, including me.Moving the bridge accidently could cause a derail if not corrected causing $$$ damage to a locomotive. The bridge looking to be in place can be bad news if out of place. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
My drop down section is securely anchored on the hinge side to a short section of wall. Very secure, hasn't moved in 25 years:
DB_3 by Edmund, on Flickr
The hinge is a heavy-duty one which also has nylon inserts that take up any "slop" and mine is attached to a milled aluminum block since my bridge is "skewed" about five degrees.
DB_7 by Edmund, on Flickr
The block is anchored from behind to an oak board which is lagged into the studs of the wall. On the open-side of the bridge I used a 1/4" aluminum plate that I pressed two dowel pins into which align with the mating plate.
DB_2 by Edmund, on Flickr
A stud passes through the center hole and a hand-wheel secures the bridge in place. I use a pair of dog-point set screws for any minor height adjustment but I haven't had to adjust it, ever.
DB_5 by Edmund, on Flickr
The bridge itself is a "channel" of two lengths of poplar with a grove dadoed into the bottom which accepts a piece of good 3/8" plywood.
DB_6 by Edmund, on Flickr
DB_9 by Edmund, on Flickr
For years I had a relay that killed track power but with the advent of keep alive decoders and the fact that I never really had any near-misses I decided to eliminate it. Actually, the height of the bridge is such that I can easily duck under it. That may change in the next few years but for now it is my exercise routine to do squats under the bridge
I drop it down when I'm doing clean-up tasks or other times when I pass through the aisle more often.
Hope that helps —
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullman My drop down section is securely anchored on the hinge side to a short section of wall. Very secure, hasn't moved in 25 years:
Wow, thank you so much for the pictures and details Ed. Good to know a dropdown can be done like this.
I am in the process of mocking up a few pieces of wood right now to act as a simulated bridge to test out various concepts, but your detailed response should fast track my own progress.
It looks like most of the stability in your design comes from the aluminum plate and dowel pins. I will need to explore that aspect more as I was orginally thinking of just using wood joints, but I can see how over time wood can wear down enough to potentially cause alignment problems. Seems like metal is the way to go for the critical alignment pieces.
Thanks again!
Thinking about the metal aspect gave me a few new ideas. What if I just do the whole base of the bridge in aluminum? I looked up prices of flat stock and can get a 1/4" thick, 4' wide and 48" long piece of aluminum flat stock for about $25. That would be enough for the base of the bridge and any plates on the ends. How wide do I need to go for 2 tracks of N scale running over it?
Then I got thinking about attaching the hinge and got wondering if I could get a hinge welded onto the flatstock. I assume there are aluminum hinges?? Any other metals compatable with welding to aluminum. I know there is a shop nearby me that does aluminum work as we had some done years ago, but I am not that knowledgeable in that dept.
Then if I did the same on the other lip of the hinge by welding it to a piece of aluminum left over and then drill holes in the plate to attach securily to my platform frame. This would take a lot of the variances out, and on the open side I could do like Ed with dowl pins, but they would go directly into the base since it is already aluminum.
Of course then I could maybe get some thin diamond plate metal and make sides out of it and make the whole think look like a bridge, probably not proto but I am not too worried about that aspect.
Just thinking out loud and wondering if anyone has already gone down that route and used all metal for a bridge whether in a drop down or not.
I only used wood for my lift-up gate. Unless you are expecting tons of visitors and a lot of wear on it, I would say it's not absolutely necessary to build something out of aluminum. By the way, the advantage of a gate that drops into place is that it makes it easier to build braces. Gravity holds it in place, and if you use wood (and roadbed) that is the same thickness as the layout, it's a cinch to get the right height alignment. For the sideplay, you just need to build side braces where the gate lands. As for the hinges, placing them on small blocks will allow you to get better precision when the tracks fall in place (because of the greater angle). I also put a switch that shuts off power to the tracks - on the entire layout - for safety.
Simon
20181004_073416 on Flickr
20181004_073338 on Flickr
Cisco_Kid I looked up prices of flat stock and can get a 1/4" thick, 4' wide and 48" long piece of aluminum flat stock for about $25.
Maybe look around for a commercial electrical supplier? We used to have lots of Aluminum Raceway or cable tray material where I once worked.
Grainger Cable Tray:
I used a length of similar stuff for a lift-out on a G scale railroad once. Very strong, very stable.
They are a little flimsier but maybe look at some steel studs while you're at it? Maybe you could add some bracing or cut a nice piece of 1/4" or so, plywood to lay inside the stud channel to stiffen it up and make a base for your track.
Most seem to be 25 ga. (flimsy) but there are others made for load-bearing walls that are heavier. Look around for 20 gauge or thicker "structural" steel studs.
LastspikemikeNote that it is important for a drop down as opposed to a lift up that the pivot point for the lifting panel be above the top of railhead.
Fix the language and sense, and I'll delete this post afterward.
Cisco_Kid easy access pathway to behind my bar area without using a duckdown.
Very critial to have full access to anything bar related, without ducking, dodging, stooping and crawling. Cheers!
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi Cisco_Kid easy access pathway to behind my bar area without using a duckdown. Very critial to have full access to anything bar related, without ducking, dodging, stooping and crawling. Cheers! Mike.
mbinsewi Very critial to have full access to anything bar related, without ducking, dodging, stooping and crawling. Cheers! Mike.
Yes, I imagine drinking and model railroads don't get along that well together
richhotrain I would be willing to do any and/or all of the above to have full access to the bar. Rich
I would be willing to do any and/or all of the above to have full access to the bar.
While we don't really use the bar area that much anymore as a "bar" (i.e. sitting down at it and drinking) I do still have a minifridge and some plumbing hooked up for ice, soda dispenser, beer keg tap, etc. Also with the holidays coming up I do make drinks back there on occasion as the family room is not too far away.
So yeah, while it is not an everyday use zone I do want to maintain full-height access, especially if I want to wheel a keg back there.
After I have the track held in place and ballasted, I make diagonal cuts in the rails. The cuts must be made slanted toward the fixed section of trackwork.
Video of drop-down section
Assemble the entire drop-down section as a single unit. Once the track is in place and ballasted, I cut the wood with a heavy-duty cutoff disk with a Dremel and track with a light-duty disk. The lighter disk won't create a large gap.
To wire the approaches and the swing down section, I used connectors at each end. The power is connected to the connector that is soldered to the drop-down section. The power is routed from that connector to the connectors at the ends of the fixed trackwork, so when the connectors are unplugged, the power to the approaches is disconnected, also. This prevents the train from taking that plunge into the Concrete Canyon. Make sure the wiring for the block for the approaches are long enough to prevent a train moving in reverse doesn't back over the cliff.
The holes match up with dowels drilled and glued into the bottom of the fixed trackwork and held in place with a slide bolt.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR