Hello Everyone
New here and I have already read a lot of posts here and elsewhere before joining, but now I find myself with some specific questions so thought I would join the community.
I am looking to setup a small railroad layout starting from scratch. When I was a kid I did have a HO scale system, starting with a small train kit in a box with an oval track, Tyco I think?? Through my early teen years it grew into a more elaborate, but still small, layout on a piece of 4x8 plywood. Then somewhere along the line it got packed away and lost over time either due to moves or possibly my mom sold it at a yard sale.
Anyway, now many years later I am looking to get back into the hobby. I am thinking going with either a HO scale system, or even possibly an N scale setup so I can have more room, but I am not sure if the N scale size is right for my tastes.
So I do and will probably ask many questions, but the first of which is on layout of the system. I have a corner of my basement that currently has a bar and rail which I think I can use as a support for a platform. I plan to place sections of plywood, particle board, or whatever recommendations I get down on the bar and along the rail to server as the platform.
I will want the sections to be separable, as we don’t really use the bar much anymore but would like to retain the option to get to it if needed with minimal tear-down. So essentially it will not be a permanent setup even though I do no anticipate taking it down too often, perhaps once a year if even that. I think really the only thing this will limit is I will not be able to go too cray with landscapes and will need to keep everything relatively flat.
I have a rough sketch of my space attached, sorry for the roughness I just jotted it down quick. The dashed lines represent the sections I think I would like to have to be able to take it apart, but by no means is any of this final and I am open to any and all suggestions at this point.
The basic dimensions of the area are on one end (top of the sketch) is the bar area, which is a ~2ft wide bar and a 2ft space between the bar and wall. Along the side wall (right side of sketch) runs a ~6’ wide drink rail to about 16 ft out (including the bar). Then there is another 4ft of space and the bottom area where I though I could put another 4’x4’piece for a return loop. So the total side wall is a bit over 20’ end to end.
Since I am going to be putting some type of plywood base on the drink rail, I can go wider than 6” if needed, but I am thinking that will be enough to two rail lines in parallel. Note on my drawing I am using jut a single line to represent one track as this was just a rough sketch to get my thoughts down.
At the top I am thinking of leaving the first 4’ open against the wall as shown in the sketch, so I have access to the top right corner, as remember this section will be on a bar counter.
So anyway, I am looking for suggestions on layouts, I just drew the first thing that popped into my mind, scales (prefer HO but N would maybe allow for more with this space). Also any suggestions of what track, trains, etc to start off with. My first goal would just to get a basic setup going and add from there, but already thinking going DCC so I want to start off right without buying duplicates.
Also I would rather buy quality, again the buy it right the first time mentality, rather than have everything at once. So if this means I just start off with some basic track, a decent DCC system and a single DCC locomotive, I would rather do it that way than have to compromise or worse buy again.
Also on the subject of budget, while I do not want to go super crazy, from the research I have done I am thinking (not counting the plywood or anything) I will need about a $600-$800 budget to start. I am thinking about $150-$200 for a DCC controller/power pack, ~$150-$200 for starter track, and $300-$400 for a DCC ready locomotive with some sounds.
Again, none of this is set in stone, I am just looking right now for any and all suggestions on all aspects as while I initially though this would be pretty simple, the more I research the more I realize I don’t seem to know anything at all about this topic as my childhood system seems pretty far removed from what is now available.
to the forum. Your posts are delayed in moderation for a while. Then that goes away.
I thought we had a Cisco Kid, but I guess I was wrong. My cousin lived a couple doors down from Pancho, Leo Carrillo, not Willie Nelson's Pancho.
Your pic is here:
PPosting pictures in this forum is unlike what you may be used to. There is sticky post that explains how, but you came close for a newbie.
A 6" wide run for two tracks is the bare minimum for HO. A 4' square to have a circle of track, including a couple inches on both sides comes down to 22" radius. There are lots of layouts on 4x8 plywood but if your vision is modern autoracks or 85' passenger trains or a Big Boy, that isn't big enough.
You mention N scale might not be right for you and that is absolutely the case for me. It just looks too small to me, but 40% of the hobby is N scale so it looks OK to a lot of people.
Your post raises a lot of issues, like your layout is a circle with no possibility of changing directions. I'll leave the meat on the bone for others to comment.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Welcome to the forum, Cisco.
I can't comment on many of your questions, but I have an N Scale layout. As far as the trains, I have no problem with N. However, since I like to scratchbuild structures, N Scale presents challenges for me since I'm almost 70 years old.
Either scale has advantages.
Hope to see photos of your progress.
York1 John
to the Model Railroader forum, Cisco.
What you planned is possible, but watching trains run back and forth down a 6 inch wide shelf might get boring. I would set it up as a point-to-point run if it was mine, but my tastes are most likely different from what you want.
You budget sound realistic to start.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Howdy. Welcome to the forum.
Ho or N is a personal choice. Either can make a great layout, but size, avilability of equipment, etc, etc. are choices you will have to make.
I would suggest plywood rather than particle board. If you use a single layer of plywood with no framing, I would suggest 3/4" ACX. If you use thinner plywood with no framing it might warp.
You will need to draw your plans more to scale. I think you will have issues fitting it all in.
In the upper area the wye will take up more space than you have drawn, plus injecting switches into the loop will make the loop larger. The transition to the 6" wide portion will never fit, especially with the yard tracks coming off. It will need a portion about 3x3 cut into a triangle.
The 6" stretch wide is the absolute narowest you can go with HO double track.
In the bottom blob, you will need to add about a 2x2 triangle to accomodate the curve from the straight to the loop. What you have drawn might work for N but it definitely won't for HO. The S curve from the straight to the loop will be 21" radius or smaller, which means it will have to be flex track. 22" radius will NOT work on those curves.
Not trying to be negative, but I've designed and built several layouts and I'm just mentioning things where the geometry and math don't work.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks for the replies so far. Yes, I see my post was moderated after posting and also I seem to be unable to edit it now to fix the mistakes, so thanks also for reposting my drawing.
Again, nothing is set in stone so I can certainly expand on the above in a few spots if I need an extra few inches here or there, I just want to stay within that general footprint.
Also, the main line of 6" is just what the actual drink rail I have now measures (actually 5-1/2" to be exact) but I will be putting a plywood piece down anyway so I can certainly extend its width to 7" or even 8" if need be. I guess at first I am just trying to nail down whether to go wih the HO or N option, as my eyes enjoy HO but my space maybe better served with N.
As far as reversing, I hadn't thought of that, and certainly I am open to doing this. Like I said in my first post, the layout was just the first scribblings that popped in my head, so I am open to all suggestions on how best this can be accomplished.
I think I would like to get the intial concept into some type of better format, any track layout software suggestions? I looked at a few I found by searching Google but not sure if there is a go-to program I should download and work with.
Thanks everyone.
I should have added I have no plans at all to add autoracks or 85' passenger cars at least at first. I might go with some steam engines but not a big boy. I am thinking maybe an early steam engine (maybe a 2-6-0) to start with along with a few shorter freight cars.
With that said, what considerations would I need to be mindful of for the larger cars? I assume larger radius turns and more track seperation at the turns, anythign else or is this layout simply to narrow to accomplish any of that?
I think that your proposed layout is a good starting point to try something out and see if you want to take it further. The "blobs" on either end could be used later on as turnarounds for a larger layout.
As pointed out by the previous response, the 4x4 dimension will limit you to about 22" radius curves and perhaps a narrower radius to connect back to the straight section (S-curve). Be careful about the "S-curve" section - you want at least 12" of straight between the right and left hand curves otherwise longer engines and passenger cars will have difficulty negotiating. Probably need to add a triangular section of benchwork as suggested above to make this practical. Consider using 24" minimum curves with easements - that will allow you to run larger engines and passenger cars in HO scale. A quick look on my 3rdPlanit software indicates that you would need approximately a 4.5' (wide) x 5.5' (long) section for the "blobs" for 24" radius with an acceptable S-curve section. You can also add sidings with industries etc. inside or at the corners of the "Blob" table sections to add more operating interest. Good luck!
As a couple people have mentioned, big engines and cars need big curves. So before you decide between HO and N, you have to first decide whether you care about being able to run big things like full size pasenger cars, the mega articulated steam engines, modern diesels and autoracks, etc. If so, you'll have to use N gauge to get anything like that plan.
But if you're content to stick to moderately sized engines and cars (and many of us are) then you can definitely make something like this work in HO. 18" radius curves work perfectly fine when you've got early diesel engines like the RS-3, F7, etc, modestly sized steamers like a 2-8-2, and the typical pre-1960 freight cars that are less than 60ft long.
Personally, I don't have a big space but I like the size of HO; N seems too small for me. So I've opted for a HO layout, using trains that can handle 18" curves, and I think it's great. But only you know what you'd like in a layout.
I agree with some of the above comments, that in HO, the dimensions you have listed will likely be a problem if you want big engines and long cars to run without issues on sharp curves such as 22 inches at the end where the 4x4 is located for the turnback.
The danger of hand drawn plans is they can often be unrealistic as to what can fit in the space available. Scale drawings best show what is realistic and what is not.
I know many want to work with standard 4x8 sheets of plywood but those sheets act as a straight jacket in HO limiting curves and other things such that you would only really want to run shorter engines and rolling stock.
Many longer trains such as scale length passenger cars need at bare minimum 24 inch curves, which are too broad for a 4x4. Really you need a 4.5 x 4.5 at least at the end for decent curves. And if using flex track is out of your comfort range to make broader curves, KATO Unitrack comes in 24 and larger sectional curves and has a base built in.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I would not extend the dimensions of your end loops. Access to the far tracks will be an issue already, and adding an access hatch with the bar beneath the layout will not be possible.
This sounds like a bad idea. I would suggest lowering the radius to 18 inches, shrinking the penninsulas, and running shorter equipment.
Lastspikemikegeometrically speaking
If you can find a way to make a loop of track expand from 22 inch to 28 inch radius while only extending the area in one dimension... I am anxious to hear about it.
Just geometrically speaking of course.
Thanks for replies.
For those wondering, don't get hung up on all the square corners, I just drew roughly what size plywood panels I would need. The only edges that will probably remain straight are the top 4' edge, the long 20' side and the bottom 4' edge as these will all butt up against existing walls. The bottom blob as soom of you are calling it, I will probably follow the curve about 2-3" away from the track and cut the excess away so it is a smooth profile.
I can also add small triangle pieces that also get rounded to make any curve transitions easier, especially on the top blob. I can probably make that section 54" (4-1/2') square, again with rounding of the inside edges to follow and match the track requirements. The two 90 degree inside corners of the "dogbone" can certainly be rounded and additonal material added to help ease the curves.
I am fairly good with woodworking and am a lot better visualizing what i want than I am using the planning software, especailly getting it to model my bench requirements. I will try to get this worked up better either on graph paper or in another CAD type program.
Anyway, to shift gears I think I am leaning toward a N scale train set. Since almost all the hobby shops in my area (within an 90 min drive) are closed due to covid I am unable to go and look at some examples. I know I want to go with DCC so I am looking at one of the DCC starter packs, either the NCE Power Cab DCC Starter Set or the Digitraxs DCS52 Zephyr Express look like two of the candidates, so I am thinking of picking that up right away as it willw ork with N or HO scales.
I am also thinking of ordering in a N scale locomotive and a small amount of track just to get the feel of a N scale layout. I was thinking of buying just a DCC ready model to save a few dollars in case I feel I hate N scale. I have watched countless videos and read many reviews, visted manufacturer sites, even mocked up a few models on a piece of paper using their given dimensions, but as above I am more a visual and touch type of person that needs to see the model in my hands to get a good feel for it. I figure worse case I would have a small oval I could run the loco on if I hate it and go with HO, or even sell if on eBay for a few $$ loss so not too worried about that aspect.
I don't know if that sounds crazy or not, but from my few attempts at using a track modeling software it looks like I could put in a pretty impressive N scale layout by adding a few more generous curvers to my original layout above. HO would fit but everythign seems like it would still be very tight and limiting. ANyone I was hoping for some thoughts on this apect as well, or am I just getting too far ahead of myself at this stage?
Thanks for all the input so far it is appreciated.
Still under moderation so sorry about so many posts...
I am still trying to master using any of the track layout programs, the track laydown part seems fine, but I am struggling with getting my platform shape and dimensions into them.
Anyway, my wife has one of those craft cutout machines and she was able to do up a rough shape of the proposed platforms shape which I then just drew some lines on. Track ideas are welcome but this is probably the inital layout of my work area.
I am also thinking this will need to be N scale, as the space for a loop is limited on the return loop (left side)and trying to fit a 22" or 24" radius for HO would stick the platform a bit too far out. Right now that end is adjacent to a built-in shelf which comes out 42" and going any bigger would stick out too far.
Cisco_KidI am also thinking this will need to be N scale,
Just saw your responses posted after the moderation delay... that will end soon... go respond to three other threads!
I think N scale will work well with the space you have to work with.
Hopefully we will see lots of updates in the coming months.
Yep, think I have firmly decided on N scale as the smaller loop can only have a 18" radius without growing to far into the rest of the living space and causing issues.
Using a 18" radius I can come out 40" on the platform to stay flush with the small in-wall bookcase that is there now. This will also offer some protection to the RR as we still will use the remaining area for other things.
I have also added a small additonal section to the plan by using a small bridge section. This will give a bit more room to run on for the main outer loop. Except for the main outer and inner loops, the rest of the track design is still in flux and I probably will not finalize it until I can lay down track and see what does and does not work.
Even though I have the bridge section in another post I added it here as well to make it easier to follow. BTW, the 24" (in the image above) of the "bridge" portion is now 30" to make it a bit wider, like a small doorway.
LastspikemikeConsider adding some sort of stop across the top of the open joint and a wedging action fastener underneath that pushes the drop down firmly up against that stop for consistent height.
You're right, though, that a better arrangement ought to be built, and that it should be 'fine adjustable' at or near both railheads ... and perhaps at the hinges on the back side, too ... to get the rails precisely level across both sides of the dropdown. We have had a number of threads on the 'best practices' making these, both as dropdowns/hinge-ups and physical takeouts.
My own thinking about what he is doing is to provide adjustable upside-down V guides that engage pins or mating plates on the open side of the bridge. As he raises it up, the Vs automatically align the outside end of the bridge; the bottoms (or interference fit) determine the final position, and he can then block or cam the securement to use mechanical advantage in locking or unlocking without having to fiddle with adjustment every time. I believe other posters have only used one, if the bridge has little tendency to warp; there might be an advantage in having two (one per rail) as any twist over time could be accommodated relative to the desideratum of keeping the railheads precisely aligned.
At the hinge side, I don't think you don't want the hinge to have to be the alignment long-term if you can avoid it. I've seen simple pins and sockets used to strengthen these joints; I think there have been some good suggestions on hinge-side alignment here over the years.
Decided to make the 2+ hour drive to a hobby shop that carries N scale trains over the weekend. I needed to physically see the scale difference between N and HO, and while it is indeed significant, I think the fact that N not needing as much space helped sway me over.
N scale certainly is small, but not so much as to make me want to go with HO, which I admit does offer an easier time to see the incrediable detail some manufacturers put into their modern locomotives.
Anyway, while there I picked up a fair amount of Atlas code 55 easy track, the 30" flex variety, and the associated connectors, some amount of cork (in hindsite I could have proabably bought a sheet of it for less and cut it myself) and a few turnouts. I also picked up a Athearn hopper car to play around with and test my track layouts until I can get some more pieces in. Looks pretty nice in its new home I think.
The track is just scattered about for now as I work on ideas. When I got home I also ordered the ScaleTrains CN N scale locomotive I mentioned before. Unfortunately, the shop I went to did not really have a large selection of N scale locos, maybe 20 or so on hand, and only a couple had sound. I wanted to try and support the (somewhat) local ship as much as I could, but he didn't have a lot of inventory that I wanted.
Well now that I have gone with N and have a few pieces, I will start to work on some layout ideas. I think to start I just want to get a loop up and running and go from there. I will keep you psoted as I progress.