Hi guys,
So we are breaking ground on a new shop. And I'm looking to build our(my dad and I's) final layout. We have had three garage layouts up to this point and now we are looking at a 40'x60' shop. I've got a layout designed and ready to go.
Unfortunatley we are done with Atlas. Our last three have used Atlas as well as Peco switches and we are just done. Unreliable and for the price it's just not worth it. So we have decided to hand lay all the track. We are going for the best possible reliability we can get from track. And with 80+ switches we aren't going to mess with any of the pre-produced China switches. I've been working on Fast Track switches and overall am happy with how they are coming together.
My inexperience comes in the straight track. As much as I'd like to just use flex track......we aren't going to. And for just plain straight pieces.....I've got that figured out. But can someone give me some insight on doing say a slight "S" curve? I can't really wrap my head around how you keep everything lined up and make it as easy and quick (hahaha) as possible? Maybe quick isn't the word. Efficient?
Just hoping to get some pointers from some of you guys that have done it before. I know we have quite an undertaking but in the end I think it will be worth it.
Thanks for any info you can pass along!
Mike
5150WS6...I've been working on Fast Track switches and overall am happy with how they are coming together....
While I'm well aware of what Fast Tracks offers, I've not used them, although I have scratchbuilt custom turnouts in the past to suit my needs.
I am, however, puzzled by your decision to handlay track, when there are so many good options where flex track is concerned.
At one time, handlaid track was considered to be more realistic, but in most cases, the lack of detail (at least in my opinion) was not all that impressive - no tieplates, and with track spikes, often oversize, on only every 5th or 6th tie...labour intensive and not really convincing at all, as far as details are concerned.
If you don't want to use flextrack, I'd suggest that Central Valley's tie strips might be a better option that the old-fashioned method of doing handlaid track. It offers tie plates and spikes on every tie, and you can cement the 1' lengths into whatever length you feel that the two of you together can handle.I limited most of mine to about 15', but I was working solo and on stepstools, and longer lengths would have been harder to handle.
Here's a photo of the tiestrip material with rail and ballast added...
Central Valley also offers tiestrip for turnouts, in various sizes and curveable ones, too....perhaps not all that attractive if you've already invested in FastTracks, though.
5150WS6...But can someone give me some insight on doing say a slight "S" curve? I can't really wrap my head around how you keep everything lined up and make it as easy and quick (hahaha) as possible?
As for laying out "S"-curves, it's pretty easy using flex track or the Central Valley tie strips - the latter are even more flexible than Atlas Flextrack.
Much of my track is on cut-out 3/4" plywood roadbed, almost all supported on risers of varying heights (the layout is partially double-decked), so laying track, whether flex, Central Valley tie strips, or handlaid, all that's need is to simply follow the centre-line on the roadbed.The track on the partial upper level is on cork roadbed glued to plywood, and for curves there, I simply put down the cork temporarily in whatever type of curve I wanted, and then adjusted it to fit the available space.While many will tell you that S-curves need a length of straight track between the curves, I've not found that to be necessary....
This S-curve, below, does have a straight section in it, but it was added only to place the second part of the "S" (along with the layout's fascia) farther away from the unseen portion of the layout on the right side of this aisle, as the clearances were fairly tight - no large-size operators allowed...
Here's a view of the same general area, but with the camera somewhat lower, showing the narrow aisleway...
While you can certainly build your layout whatever way you wish, perhaps this will have at least have offered you an alternative to consider.
Wayne
Wayne,
You definitely have me thinking now. We never really had any issues with the track itself. It was always the switches. And your point of just the track detail.....or lack there of if we don't use flex track is huge.
I will check out Central Valleys tie strips. That might be a good middle ground for us. Thank you for your info and recommendations!
While many will tell you that S-curves need a length of straight track between the curves, I've not found that to be necessary....
It may have been John Armstrong who discussed using a straight section the length of the longest wheel base rolling stock in S-curves. But keep in mind the context of his discussion where "conventional curves" were 24 inches and "broad" curves 30 inches. Just a guess on my part, but when you get into the lower range of curve radii, that straight section may become more and more critical.
OTOH, if you are using broader radii, then that straight section may become increasingly less important. I have a section on my (under construction) layout in staging where I have 6 tracks in a large S-curve. The radii are generally 36 inches or greater. I did draft in center-lines in effort to stick with John Armstrongs recommendation of straight section of longest wheel-base cars and easements are used throughout. In some cases there aren't really much in the way of solid straight sections when all is blended together but I tested a long passenger train of 85' cars through it and everything operated smoothly.
But I do always try to stick with John Armstrongs best practices to minimize any chances of running issues.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
"To each their own." There is no way I would go with hand laid track with the quality of the model railroad track available today, including turnouts. A waste of time and asking for problems. I hand laid all my track and made my turnouts when I was a teenager because there wasn’t any flex track in the early 1950s. I guess I did OK because everything work fine, it was a small around the room shelf layout with only four Mel made turnouts and a lift up bridge at the doorway.I have both Atlas code 100 and code 83 turnouts as well as Peco curved turnouts on my current layout and I have never had any problems with either. I used Atlas code 100 flex and turnouts on two previous layouts and never had any problems.As long as manufactured turnouts are installed correctly and use a good switch machine they work perfect, many of my Atlas turnouts on my current layout are well over 25 yrs old and working perfect. I have had to replace three that were installed in 1990 that became slightly irregular do to massive use; they just wore out after 25 yrs of heavy use.The only turnout problem I’ve had in my 69 year HO model railroading career is a double crossover, I couldn’t get a manufactured code 83 double crossover turnout that would pass my Rivarossi articulated large flange wheels without a problem, the fix was a Mel made double crossover using Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts and Atlas 19° crossover. Even the Fast track double crossover wouldn't pass my Rivarossis without problems. The custom double crossover made from Atlas turnouts has worked flawlessly since the first day it was installed. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
building from scratch is part of the hobby (benchwork, scenery, panels, structures, track, turnouts, signals, rolling stock, locos, electronics)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc building from scratch is part of the hobby (benchwork, scenery, panels, structures, track, turnouts, signals, rolling stock, locos, electronics)
For many yes, for many no.
We all find our own path.
My path includes building a lot of stuff, but as I now begin my third large layout, I reserve my track scratch building skills for special trackwork only.
The OP says he is done with Atlas and PECO turnouts? That is an experiance I cannot relate to? They work just fine for me, and lots of my friends.
I started in this hobby with TruScale track, much of it in kit form. I learned how to hand lay track and build turnouts by age 15.
But I have no plan to lay 1500' of track by hand or build 120 turnouts.
I build more of my electronics from "scratch" than most these days, I don't hear any great outcry to move modelers in that direction.
I have no real advice for the OP in todays RTR world........
Sheldon
5150WS6You definitely have me thinking now. We never really had any issues with the track itself. It was always the switches
I use Shinohara turnouts (switches) exclusively. Most of the model railroaders I know use Peco. None of us have any problems that would make us consider handlaying our own.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 5150WS6 You definitely have me thinking now. We never really had any issues with the track itself. It was always the switches I use Shinohara turnouts (switches) exclusively. Most of the model railroaders I know use Peco. None of us have any problems that would make us consider handlaying our own. -Kevin
5150WS6 You definitely have me thinking now. We never really had any issues with the track itself. It was always the switches
I use mostly those cheap crappy Atlas (acording to some) turnouts, and they have been working fine for decades?
Well here's my deal and why I'm going with non RTR switches. I've got some time. They are just breaking ground on the shop and with most of all my stuff boxed up for the move in 6 months I need something to keep me busy. So doing the switches myself will help my mental sanity with work and all. And I'm with a lot of you guys. We have run Atlas for years. My dads first layout 45 years ago and mine growing up. No issues. But the last three layouts we have done in my garage here have used "Newer" Atlas.....and the quality is just crap. Hinge points and things are weak, and wobbley rails in the switch. Making my own turnouts will cost me about $20 per turnout and I have more options. We are running #12 switches on almost the entire layout so finding those RTR are next to impossible. I know Atlas are the cheapest at $18 ish a turnout. But the next step up is Peco which runs roughly $26-$28. For that I'd rather build turnouts since I have the time.
I think that I have been talked out of hand laying all the straight and curves. There's just going to be too much track and I'd like to have my dad run on the layout before he's 100.(He's 75 now....LOL) So I think I will go with Peco flex track for the straights.
But I'm still soured on Atlas. From crap switches right out of the box to just not being able to run consistenly on them we are looking at other options. Granted I could have tried to contact Atlas for replacements but I don't feel I should have to do that on a brand new turnout. Let alone 4 of them.
5150WS6 I've got some time. They are just breaking ground on the shop and with most of all my stuff boxed up for the move in 6 months I need something to keep me busy. So doing the switches myself will help my mental sanity with work and all.
I understand this completely; I spent the last three years working on my new freight car fleet to keep my sanity while my layout room was under construction.
5150WS6 Well here's my deal and why I'm going with non RTR switches. I've got some time. They are just breaking ground on the shop and with most of all my stuff boxed up for the move in 6 months I need something to keep me busy. So doing the switches myself will help my mental sanity with work and all. And I'm with a lot of you guys. We have run Atlas for years. My dads first layout 45 years ago and mine growing up. No issues. But the last three layouts we have done in my garage here have used "Newer" Atlas.....and the quality is just crap. Hinge points and things are weak, and wobbley rails in the switch. Making my own turnouts will cost me about $20 per turnout and I have more options. We are running #12 switches on almost the entire layout so finding those RTR are next to impossible. I know Atlas are the cheapest at $18 ish a turnout. But the next step up is Peco which runs roughly $26-$28. For that I'd rather build turnouts since I have the time. I think that I have been talked out of hand laying all the straight and curves. There's just going to be too much track and I'd like to have my dad run on the layout before he's 100.(He's 75 now....LOL) So I think I will go with Peco flex track for the straights. But I'm still soured on Atlas. From crap switches right out of the box to just not being able to run consistenly on them we are looking at other options. Granted I could have tried to contact Atlas for replacements but I don't feel I should have to do that on a brand new turnout. Let alone 4 of them. Mike
Well, if you are using #12's, you need to build them, for several reasons.
FWIW, Walthers plans on offering #10 turnouts and should be availalbe in a month or two.
The only Atlas turnouts I recall having wobbly rails were a few of the older code 100 #6, probably because the rivets were loose. Atlas has offered 2 kinds of code 83 turnouts, 1) Custom Line and 2) Super Track. I have both kinds and those seem fine. I've decided to switch mostly to Peco because I like the finger flick feature Atlas do not have so Atlas requires a ground throw or switch machine at extra cost and installation.
I started with the Atlas code 83 Super track #6 turnouts in the late 1990's and noticed the plastic didn't fill quite all of the mold, so there were small gaps where there should have been plastic in some. Nothing that should cause issues for running but a quality issue I noticed. I still have a gaggle of Atlas code 83 turnouts I'll probably use for industrial sidings but plan on using all Peco in staging (code 100) and main line and yard (code 83) except a couple of Walthers or Shinohara #8 curved.
Atlas code 100 prices are now about the same as what Peco code 100 are now, so it seems like a no brainer to go with Peco for my staging yard. I sold off all my
I have one DCC friendly Walthers/Shinohara #10 turnout. I have no idea where I will ever use it. The #10s are big. The difference between a #8 and a #10 seems bigger than the difference between a #6 and a #8.
I cannot imagine what a #12 would look like.
Longer LOL. I bought #8 turnouts for cross overs and mainline sidings, but I'm tempted to try a couple of the new Walthers #10's. I have long cars (passenger cars, TOFC flat cars and auto racks) and they like long turnouts. If you are running shorter rolling stock, which you seem to be doing, then yeah, you probably don't need #10 turnouts, or maybe even #8.
The #12's are shockingly huge. About 19" long from top to bottom. I still look at the printout I have of the switch and shake my head. They are monsters for sure.
And I'm not sure on the Atlas. As to why they made a huge turn in the last few years. I know they switched suppliers in China and that was a cause of a lot of the issues. Maybe we just got a bad batch? But literally on a layout with 25 switches 3 were bad right out of the box, and 15 others needed tweaking and all of them needed finesing to get to work right.
If I'm going to take the time to finesse and make sure my switch is tight and working properly right out of the box? I'm going to just build them. It's not worth my time or frustration. We ran Atlas for YEARS and never had issues. But just in the last 5 it's been enough to make dad and I both say, "screw this" and we will never go back.Now looking at our layout with 80+ switches.......I'm not about to get motivated to fine tune the switches that in my opinion should be 99% good right out of the box. I'd rather spend that time fine tuning some precision #12 turnouts and never look back. Unfortunately Atlas has burned a bridge with us. This will hopefully be our last layout and we aren't taking any chances!Although a lot of your guys points have got me to doing Peco Flex track. No longer considering hand laying 1200' of straight.
Yeah, you must have gotten a bad batch. I bought around 10 Atlas code 83 #6 in around 2015/16 and they were all pretty good. Did you contact Atlas about replacements? I would have rather that than toss the entire company out the window. They have had good customer service in my experience.
Have you tried Peco turnouts? So far they seem very good and I've heard universally good comments from other Peco users too. Of course the largest they make are #8 so if you need larger, especially monster #12's ....
I agree, having worked in this business, I think Atlas would have made that good, and I suspect it was just a bad batch.
5150WS6 80+ switches <SNIP> #12 turnouts
This must be a huge layout you are working on.
I cannot find space for a single #10.
I have tried a couple Peco turnouts and it still seems like they needed some fine tuning. They were considerably better than the Atlas though from what I saw.
I never did contact Atlas. It got to be that there were so many switches that needed help that I just didn't have the time with my current schedule. Then we started the road to building a house and of course the new railroad shop and we are scrapping the whole layout in the garage now anyway. So it probably wasn't fair to Atlas but......sort of how it goes. I don't have anything bad to say about Atlas because they worked for a lot of years. But unfortuantely I'm moving on from those guys. I still will use flex track and other products from them, just not turnouts.
As I stated before, I would probably look at doing another brand of switches like Peco or one of the others but everything is packed. And I have about a year before any layout will be started. And for the cost.....I'd rather use this time to really focus on making smooth as butter precision switches.
And the new layout is big....huge compared to what I've had all my life but it's not monsterous I don't feel? Maybe it is. 2000sq ft. I use a wheelchair to get around so it will just be nice to have room to have a big shelf type layout that offers 100% accessability. All my previous layouts have had spots I can't get to and that sucks! :)
5150WS6Maybe it is. 2000sq ft. I use a wheelchair to get around so it will just be nice to have room to have a big shelf type layout that offers 100% accessability.
2,000 is bigger than my house!
I am designing my layout for wheelchair access. I do not need one, but I do not know what the future holds. I have had a few friends become wheelchair users and lose access to their layouts.
Kevin,
You are a smart man! I think everyone should think about that as a factor for their layouts. Just for the simple fact that, even if you aren't in a chair it's nice to have access to everything when you start to get old and creeky and hurty. So well done there for sure.What are you using to design your layout?
5150WS6What are you using to design your layout?
I am 100% terrible at layout design, so I "designed" this one by actually building the whole thing 1:1 out of cardboard and making sure everything fit.
This is the thread about my layout design:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/262808/2962624.aspx
I'm no expert, but I have always felt most comfortable using 11x17 graph paper with a compass, scale rule and erasor shield. I've used graphical software for other things, but visualize best with a scale drawing with room boundaries drawn in.
Nice man I'll have to check out your thread!
RioGrande,
A couple layouts I would have argued with you that paper is old school and CAD programs are the way to go. But I'd have been wrong. I still use Anyrail for all my design work but dad and I both agree it's more for guidelines. On the last three layouts we have severely cut back and changed things from what the CAD drawings show. So I like your idea about hand drawing. It's just so hard to get measurements and design right on the CAD programs. It's just to hard to wrap your head around! So I like your appear idea for sure!
This current layout is completely CAD, but while we build dad and I both are in the agreement that you build it to look good to the eye, not what's on the paper. Because it's totally different. So we will just use the drawings as a guide and go with the flow to make sure it doesn't look to cramped or out of line. It's amazing how easy it is to get too much track on a computer and then you put it on the board and say "what was I thinking?" LOL
Ask me how I know!
Man. Got all my stuff from FastTracks for the #12 turnouts. I've got to say. Although expensive, it's completely worth it. My first turnout sucked. LOL! Threw it away. 2nd and 3rd were considerably better and the 4th and 5th were works of art!
I have to say that I am completely loving building turnouts! Maybe it's because in the move all my stuff is packed up and this is the only outlet I have for railroad. Or maybe it's because my ADHD and OCD just make this part of the hobby incredibly satisfying?
But there is something so satisfying about cutting up the rail, bending, filing and then soldering it all together, only to run a car or pair of trucks across it and have it be the smoothest and most quiet turnout I've ever seen. Do they take time? Yes. But I'm gettting my rhythem down. I'm making parts in 20 switch sets. That way each part is exactly the same and exactly perfect. Sort of an assembly line take to it. And it's a blast!I would urge anyone that's thought about doing hand made turnouts to try it. Agreed if I had a shop and layout to work on it would be sort of mind numbing to have to do the switches instead of work on layout, but for now? Where I'm at and with colder weather coming? Nothing better in my model railroad world than some music, warm house, dog beside me, a cold Mt Dew and building amazingly perfect turnouts......
Thanks to everyone that offered pointers and advice. And thanks to FastTracks for making a killer easy and good package for turnouts! I can't say enough good things about those guys. They got me everything quick and also have even answered a couple of my questions on weekends via email. They are how companies should be in this hobby!
I design on paper but check everything on the floor with paper turnouts and cheap secional track, brass is fine for this.
Dude, building turnouts is like a drug! It's so great! I love handlaying track. It's.... meditative. There is something so satisfying in the tactile experience of driving the spikes. As far as your original question about track spacing, i know that some people make spacing guages and such to keep the track in line. I have a bunch of (Kadee?) 3 point guages to keep the track in guage when driving spikes. Another company to look at would be Proto87 if you want handlaid AND crazy realism. The ultimate turnouts they offer are ridiculous. Individual metal tie plates, etc. Wild stuff. Show us some pics when you're done!