New layout with signals.....what to do?

[5150WS6]

So we are redoing our layout and I have some questions on signals. I have no experience with signals but wiring and things will be the easy part for me. my question is how many signals?

The layout is a 10'x16' HO scale SP era. I have decided on Signal Logic Systems because I don't want to bother with a laptop or JMRI.

For signals I want just a standard red/yellow/green. Green open block, yellow a train in the net block and red busy block.

But looking at that layout, to do signals where they would be needed......I'd be at over 20 signals. I don't want this to look ridiculous or like a Christmas tree. But I would like to run some signals for operational purposes to make it more fun and realistic.

I guess my question is for you more experienced guys.....how many is enough? How many is too many? 

This layout will be implemented into a larger layout at some point in the future but for now I'd like some signals to practice and get my feet wet with the signal idea.

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks guys,

 Mike

[hon30critter]

Hi Mike,

I'm not an expert on signals, but I believe that it would help others to answer your question if you could provide us with a diagram of your layout plan.

I will be interested to see what answers you get. My club is in the throws of trying to decide how many signals we want. The biggest challenge is trying to figure out how to signal situations where there are several mainline turnouts very close to each other without building Christmas trees.

Dave

[Overmod]

If you are worried about excess 'Christmas Tree' appearance, use a compressed version of approach lighting.  That might be done as simply as for grade-crossing activation on a model layout (switch depressed by passage, IR beam reflected or blocked, etc.) with a connection to a NO relay that connects power from the signal system to particular head(s).  Arrange some kind of time constant to keep the lights on after the train has passed the head.

Be aware that signals are used for things other than primitive ABS or speed control.  Many railroads particularly those using GCOR show route information via aspects, and you might want to study a NORAC or GCOR manual to see what the rules provide for.

[mbinsewi]

5150WS6

I guess my question is for you more experienced guys.....how many is enough? How many is too many? 

Not sure if that can be answered without seeing a track plan, but the amount of signals needed depends on the length of your blocks, and how many blocks and controled sidings you have.

You might want to research the SP and their use of signals.

Mike.

[RR_Mel]

My layout is a bit smaller than yours at 10’ x 14’ and I went with mainline only for the same reasons.  I also model the SP era but in the early 1950s.

 

Because I have limited income I built my own signal system.  Originally I used Rob Paisley Circuits, they worked great.

 

http://www.circuitous.ca/CircuitIndex.html

 

My blog post on the Paisley Circuits.

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/p/page-17.html

 

I recently cutover to using an Arduino to control my signals.

 

I had problems finding nice looking LEDs until I found the Bivar SMTL4-RGY LED.

 

The new LED and Arduino MEGA have worked out very nice for my layout. 

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/2017/02/february-3-2017-arduino-mega-signal.html

 

I’m still working on a upgraded blog post to my new signal system.

 

Because I operate dual mode (DC or DCC) I’m going with IR occupancy detection, the IR detector doesn’t care about track power for detection.

 

https://melvineperry.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_49.html

 

 

 

I have 120' of twice-around mainline.  Where the blocks can be viewed they are approximately 8' long so a pair of signals every 8', one for each direction.  I have a lot of hidden track where the blocks are longer than 8', some 15' without signals.

 

All in all I have two dual track signal bidirectional signal bridges and 6 pair of single track signals for a total of 14 signals, seven in each direstion.

 

The signals don't stand out, they blend in to the scenery nicely.

 

 

 

 

Which ever way you go a working signal system is worth every ounce of effort and penny involved.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[ROBERT PETRICK]

5150WS6

 

But looking at that layout, to do signals where they would be needed......I'd be at over 20 signals. I don't want this to look ridiculous or like a Christmas tree. But I would like to run some signals for operational purposes to make it more fun and realistic.

I guess my question is for you more experienced guys.....how many is enough? How many is too many?

Hey Mike -

If you install only one plant at one turnout or interlocking and it functions, then that could certainly be enough. Maybe add another couple to protect a siding here and there.

I don't think your signals would be ridiculous or look like a Christmas tree, even if you did go crazy and install a lot, and twenty or so signals (while a pretty decent number) doesn't sound like a whole lot.

My suggestion . . . start with one or two, then see what happens.

Good luck.

Robert

[5150WS6]

I will try to upload a copy of the layout design. I hesitated putting that up because right now it's only on paper. Once we have the frame finished this weekend we will lay the track out on the top of the layout to get a test feel on how it looks. I've learned over the years that desiging on a CAD program is too easy and you always end up going overkill on the track so......I'll upload a copy of it so you guys can see. I appreciate the input for sure.

I plan on making some very heavily wooded areas so hopefully even if there are a lot of signals they won't be seen due to all the trees, but we'll see.  My goal is to no be able to see one side of the layout from the other. Without anything on the wood right now though it's hard to picture it covered with stuff so the signals look pretty overwhelming.

Mike

 

[5150WS6]

Ok I'm an idiot. Why is it so freakin complicated to upload a photo?  What am I missing......

 

Nevermind. Read the post on how to post pics. Too much to deal with tonight. Been too long of day. I'll try to get it posted tomorrow

[mbinsewi]

I clicked on the little box, and I got "404 File or directory not found"

You need to read the "sticky note" post on the General Disscussion" forums, from Steve , on how to post pictures.

Basically, you need to have your photos on a photo hosting, and you can not post them from your Pictures or Documants files.

Mike

EDIT OK, you got it, I was typing my reply as you were posting, never mind.

[5150WS6]

Hahahaa all good Mike thanks. I just hate it when the make it so many steps to post a stupid picture. I'm on it now so I can get the layout design up.

Thanks buddy

Mike

[5150WS6]

5150Ver30 by Mike Underwood, on Flickr" alt="Initial layout" />

Ok guys so here is the initial layout we have planned. As I said, this will be sort of a modular thing that will be added into my shop when we eventually move here.

But back to the signals. I'm really struggling to figure out how many to add or how few. I want it to be functional and work. (Mainly because my 74 year old dad things that a 60mph yard speed is perfectly fine in his GP38-2) and I want to make sure it works correctly.

I'm not as hung up on making sure it's exaclty SP or even to our time period. I'm not really modelling anything that accurately so it's more about just functionality at this point. And with this layout we are doing more operational vs anything else so that's the reason for the two yards.

Thoughts?

Mike

[Overmod]

Inky opinion the very first thing you should do at this point is download a copy of GCOR and carefully review its provisions on signals, carefully noting what the various aspects do.  If you want, look at some of the online references to the various ways SP used their signals,  That will probably answer a great many of your questions.

Thanks to Google Books there is now a vast library of trade press from the early days of electrical ABS, some of which I think are mentioned in recent Kalmbach threads.  If all you want is that 'functionality' you could get a good idea of what to "compress" for the relatively complex track plan of a typical layout.

[BigDaddy]

No picture.   You can't use the http address in Flickr.   To the right and low of your pic ought to be an arrow curving upward and right.  Click on that.

Select BB Code. click on the little box and it turns blue, the hit control C

Go back to his forum and paste it with Control V just as if it was text and don't use the photo icon or link icon

Alternatively paste it in wordpad, cut anything to the left of the first http and to the right of the first jpg.  That will give you something that looks like this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8575/16694450805_0c2a2aa5c7_k.jpg

That link will work with the add photo icon.

Or leave the bracket img, the above address and the bracket /img bracket and simply use Control V to paste it.

[5150WS6]

Henry,

Thanks for the heads up. Looks like it posted it in there. Sheesh. My computer nerd days have slowly disappeared I'm afraid. Used to be good at this stuff!

Pic is amended and up now.

Thanks again for the heads up.

Mike

[5150WS6]

And just for the record, the layout looks like a mess for sure. But we just haven't deleted some of the areas yet. I think the main "figure 8" will remain but some of the spurs and possibly parts of the yard will be thinned out. Just too much going on.  So if you guys can take that part with a grain of salt.......it's not the finished product by far.