Working on the background for the ho scale and wondering if 8 inches is high enough if Im building an n scale shelf layout above it and also could I get by with 6 inches for the n scale background height?
Think of it this way, if you are taking a picture to show us and you can see whatever is above the blue sky portion, that tends to be jarring and break the immersion. So to me 8-inches is way way too short for a back drop. To me even 18 inches isn't tall enough.
For my purposes, anything that is along the wall will get sky blue to the ceiling. I'm getting ready to paint these walls sky blue (ceiling will be suspended and white)
For mid-room area's where I may have a back-drop divider, I haven't designed it but want it to be pretty high, well above eye level. I'd guess if my track is at 50 inches, for example, I'm guessing 2' (24 inches).
I've seen a lot of back drops that to me or way too low. But you have to please yourself.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I see your point but remember my layout is way smaller than yours and I figure if the blue is higher than my tallest building then that will suffice. thanks for input great layout you have.
ANY backdrop is effective. ANY backdrop is so much better than not having one.
.
The only time height becomes a concern is in photography. If you want pictures of big sweeping trains, you will need a taller backdrop, and more scenery in front of the train.
However, Photoshop fizes both of these problems.
For normal viewing, any backdrop is good.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The scale doesn't matter much for backdrop height. What does the backdrop provide? If you want it for taking pictures, you're fine with 6". I would shoot for something about 24" for having people over. You don't want a sizeable amount of space (if any space) between the top of the backdrop and the ceiling to convey a sweeping skyscape.
Purely for photography purposes you can build a portable backdrop that is as high as you want, if there is a place to put it in front of the regular one.
Ideally the backdrop should go all the way up the wall and then with a gently coved corner, continue on to the ceiling above you. Someone somewhere has that. Lucky them.
I think 6" to 8" is a bit low. After all that is the height of a pretty short tree! Most of the portable layouts I see at train shows try to have backdrops in the 18" to 24" range.
Cardboard from boxes is cheap enough -- free, ideally -- and maybe that and some blue poster paints could give you 8", 12", 18" and 24" heights to ponder and choose from.
A more interesting question perhaps is, how high should the horizon be on that backdrop. If you have access to MRVP, Ken Thompson's Burlington Northern Peoria Division is a good example (the same layout is in Great Model Railroads 2019). He handpainted his horizon and sky but came to feel the entire horizon at 6" to 8" above track level was too high and conveyed the idea that there was a 90 degree angle between benchwork and wall (which of course there is but that is what a backdrop is supposed to make you forget) -- that part of Illinois is rolling hils and farmland. He lowered it to a couple of inches and the improvement in realism was dramatic. He mentions this on the video.
Dave Nelson
the old train man I see your point but remember my layout is way smaller than yours and I figure if the blue is higher than my tallest building then that will suffice. thanks for input great layout you have.
The size of the layout is less important. The backdrop will enhance the look of layouts of many size and having one of sufficient height is more visually appealing; at least that is my take on it having looked at many layouts.
SeeYou190 ANY backdrop is effective. ANY backdrop is so much better than not having one.
Any beathable air will keep you alive and is better than no air. Point being, it's obvious and goes without saying.
I disagree. Having looked at a lot of layouts at train shows in person, the ones with taller backdrops look MUCH better than those with short back drops. It's obvious and no contest.
If you want it for taking pictures, you're fine with 6".
You'd have to get very close for 6" to be enough for a photo - and have the camera set for macro!
Is the idea to get away with the absolute minimum height no matter what or is it to have an effective back drop?
dknelson Ideally the backdrop should go all the way up the wall and then with a gently coved corner, continue on to the ceiling above you. Someone somewhere has that. Lucky them.
Yet despite having the ability to do just that, I've seen a lot of people paint the wall blue up a couple feet and then white or cream above that with a straight line as if it was masked off. I scratch my head and wonder why did they do that? Why not just roll light sky blue up to the ceiling? It's a scooby doo moment for me. Rhhhuh?
Yes, 18 to 24 inches is a good rule of thumb for a stand alone backdrop.
A more interesting question perhaps is, how high should the horizon be on that backdrop. If you have access to MRVP, Ken Thompson's Burlington Northern Peoria Division is a good example (the same layout is in Great Model Railroads 2019). He handpainted his horizon and sky but came to feel the entire horizon at 6" to 8" above track level was too high and conveyed the idea that there was a 90 degree angle between benchwork and wall (which of course there is but that is what a backdrop is supposed to make you forget) -- that part of Illinois is rolling hils and farmland. He lowered it to a couple of inches and the improvement in realism was dramatic. He mentions this on the video. Dave Nelson
There are a couple of considerations. For the most basic, a sky blue back drop helps immensely behind a train scene. In general, when you look at the horizon, the sky will be a much lighter, paler shade of blue or have a haze or white cloudy appearace. As you look up higher, the shade of blue will become a bit darker and deeper toward overhead. Some who hand paint will mix in some white down near the lower horizone area and transition to bluer above.
If you are really frisky, do something like Rob Spangler and paint a landscape back ground at the bottom which represents hills or farmland or mountains, etc. with more color and definition in the foreground and more faded and less definition representing distant features. Rob has learned the art of landscape painting very well and a few others too.
Another option if hand painting isn't your forte, you can use photo back drops ordered from companies which offer them in many scene types and fix it to a back drop or wall. When done well, they can look quite good as well. One person who has done it to good effect is RGDaves Onondaga Cutoff layout.
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,4755459,4755469
If you have a double sided peninsula, then the backdrop/scenic divider needs to go up to about 6'4" above the floor, to hide people on the other side.
Dave
I think 6" or 8" is way too low. If it's a free standing lay out, maybe, but if it's against a wall, it needs to go all the way to the ceiling.
If your doing a multi level, the lower level back drop needs to go to the bottom of the upper level, and the upper level needs to go to the ceiling.
Like Rio says, look at what you see at shows, the lay outs with the higher back drop immerse you into the scene.
Dave brings up good point about the horizon, and I think that has a lot to do with lay out height and viewing angle.
I struggled with the horizon on my painted scene looking over Lake Superior, and making sure it looked right with the rest of the lay out, and how it looked as you walk up to the lay out.
I still second guess a little, but I think we all second guess our work. What you see in the picture took 3 tries.
My back drop is all hand painted, from lay out to ceiling.
Mike.
My You Tube
I think that having the backdrop come at or above eye level is best. If your layout is low, you need a taller backdrop, if your layout is up 60" or more, it needent be too tall.
My current scenic divider is just a little below eye level, because it was made to be a display layout and I wanted to be able to see what was happening on the other side, visitor wise. It is high enough so that I have to look around the ends to see the trains on the layout.
I haven't done much large layout operating, so not sure about height to hide other operators is needed. If you are always looking down toward the layout (birdseye or high hill view) you probably won't see others even if their heads are above the height of the backdrop.
Have fun,
Richard
davidmurray If you have a double sided peninsula, then the backdrop/scenic divider needs to go up to about 6'4" above the floor, to hide people on the other side. Dave
That is precisely what i have planned where the dashed line is on the plan below.
mbinsewi I struggled with the horizon on my painted scene looking over Lake Superior, and making sure it looked right with the rest of the lay out, and how it looked as you walk up to the lay out. I still second guess a little, but I think we all second guess our work. What you see in the picture took 3 tries. My back drop is all hand painted, from lay out to ceiling. Mike.
Nicely done!
I used to see Lake Erie from Route 90 between Buffalo NY and Erie PA. I think you capture it about right.
The basic purpose of the backdrop is to keep potential distractions out of the field of vision of the layout viewer. The height required to accomplish this can be determined by some simple testing. Stand away from the wall at the specific viewing distance and height you want to plan for, look at a point of interest on the "layout", and have somebody move an object up along the wall until it is out of your field of view. This is where the top of the backdrop should be.
For those mathmatically inclined, the human vertical field of vision, on average, is 150 degrees. You can calculate where a line 75 degrees above line of sight intersects with the wall. You could also use a CAD program to figure it out.
You'll find that the 18-24" most folks are advocating for is pretty much correct.
For you folks that think backdrops are just for photographs, I assume you're using a "green screen" for your backdrops so you can easily add whatever backdrop you want via Photoshop.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Every item that can be identified and described contributes to the illusion of reality. Otherwise, it's an impeditment to reality. I don't have to think about this at all, and FWIW, scale is irrelevant here: a 15 cm high backdrop will look exactly like what it is...and you won't like it.
I paint the entire wall visible above the layout, as others have said they do. The camera won't lie for you; it's still a 1:1 optical device imaging a 1:1 world in front of it, even if the artefacts in the image are scale representations. If a camera isn't relevant, then your eye will stand in for it, and for the same reasons.
carl425 The basic purpose of the backdrop is to keep potential distractions out of the field of vision of the layout viewer. The height required to accomplish this can be determined by some simple testing. Stand away from the wall at the specific viewing distance and height you want to plan for, look at a point of interest on the "layout", and have somebody move an object up along the wall until it is out of your field of view. This is where the top of the backdrop should be. For those mathmatically inclined, the human vertical field of vision, on average, is 150 degrees. You can calculate where a line 75 degrees above line of sight intersects with the wall. You could also use a CAD program to figure it out. You'll find that the 18-24" most folks are advocating for is pretty much correct.
Logical Mr. Spock. Perfectly logical. Dr. McCoy? I'm a doctor, not a diarama builder!
For you folks that think backdrops are just for photographs, I assume you're using a "green screen" for your backdrops so you can easily add whatever backdrop you want via Photoshop
The guy who does the ficticious Grande RR in n-scale does the photoshop thing all the time. I have no idea what the room looks like because he ALWAYS photo shops his publicized pictures.
Besides that, I would think, most people view there layouts with eyeballs 98% of the time and not through a camera lense. So getting back to Mr. Spock, logically you'd want a back drop that gives a good view all the time!
Every item that can be identified and described contributes to the illusion of reality. Otherwise, it's an impeditment to reality.
That is one way of putting it. It certainly is distracting to see a picture of a layout with a studwall behind it and/or lots of clutter. Sure, I get it that some get a basement and want to go hammer and tongs immediately and throw up a layout before you can say boo. But the investment in a better environment really pays off IMO. As they say, YMMV.
SeeYou190 ANY backdrop is effective. ANY backdrop is so much better than not having one. . The only time height becomes a concern is in photography. If you want pictures of big sweeping trains, you will need a taller backdrop, and more scenery in front of the train. . However, Photoshop fizes both of these problems. . For normal viewing, any backdrop is good. . -Kevin .
This. Whatever you can get to fit will help. I suppose above eye level is the goal, or your tallest bulding, but anything is better than nothing.
I had a friend who was talking pictures of his trains, and without a backdrop, the room beyond was readily apparent. He propped some blue foam in the background, and it was an immediate improvement, even with a color that wasn't quite right.
Gary
garyaThis. Whatever you can get to fit will help. I suppose above eye level is the goal, or your tallest bulding, but anything is better than nothing.
Is an 8 inch back drop better than nothing? Of course. That wasn't the question however. It was, is 8 inches high enough?
The answer by consensus is no, rather about 18 to 24 inches high is a good goal to shoot for.
Whenever I posted a view like the one below, I'd add a remark about the "threatening clouds in the distance" (actually intended as part of the support system for a later-to-be-built partial second level of the layout)...
However, a photo taken of the same area, but with the camera placed more appropriately elsewhere, the offending "clouds" aren't visible at all...
The lower backdrop extends about 22" above the benchwork, and the upper one the same amount from its benchwork to the drop-ceiling.The upper fascia's bottom edge drops fairly far, mainly to hide the fluorescent fixtures hanging from the upper level's framework. It's not obtrusive for operating on the bottom level, though, as I operate that level while seated on a rolling office chair....
...allowing photos to show even the tallest structures.
All 10 corners of the room, both internal...
...and external...
...are coved.Creating a simple "sky" backdrop helps set the scene for your layout, and also helps to make the space look bigger. You can add painted-on elements, too, or use background "flats" to create an illusion of greater depth to the scene.In most cases, it's not all that expensive to do, and will give you "good bang for your buck".
Wayne
riogrande5761Nicely done! I used to see Lake Erie from Route 90 between Buffalo NY and Erie PA. I think you capture it about right.
Thanks! Once you get yours painted sky blue, you won't want to stop!
Mike
riogrande5761 garya This. Whatever you can get to fit will help. I suppose above eye level is the goal, or your tallest bulding, but anything is better than nothing. Is an 8 inch back drop better than nothing? Of course. That wasn't the question however. It was, is 8 inches high enough? The answer by consensus is no, rather about 18 to 24 inches high is a good goal to shoot for.
garya This. Whatever you can get to fit will help. I suppose above eye level is the goal, or your tallest bulding, but anything is better than nothing.
Yes, that was the question, but here, as in everywhere, context is key. He is building an N scale shelf layout above the HO layout. He even stated that he doesn't have as much space. He asked about backdrops for both, and in that sense, anything is better than nothing.
He even stated that he doesn't have as much space.
Not much vertical space? That makes little sense unless this is a multideck layout.
riogrande5761 Not much vertical space? That makes little sense unless this is a multideck layout.
Did you read the OP's post?
the old train man Working on the background for the ho scale and wondering if 8 inches is high enough if Im building an n scale shelf layout above it and also could I get by with 6 inches for the n scale background height?
He's building an N scale shelf layout above it. I'd say that will limit his vertical space.
garyaHe's building an N scale shelf layout above it. I'd say that will limit his vertical space.
Yes, but if he's building the N-scale layout 8" above the HO layout, he's got bigger problems than the height of the backdrop. Most successful multi-deck layouts have a separation of at least 18". If the lower layout is at 42" off the floor, that puts the upper layout at 60". With 8-foot ceilings, that leaves 36" for the upper backdrop.
dunno about effective, but mine goes right to the ceiling
If I can make a suggestion
It may not work for everyone but here‘s what I did
I ordered a premade back drop from realisticbackgrounds.com. Very simply mountains with a sky blue background.
I cut a little piece off the top corner and took it to the paint store and had their color computer match it and mix up a gallon or so. I then went home and painted the wall It is a close to perfect match (the wall has a bit of texture). You can barely tell where the photo ends and the wall begins. Since It’s a shelf layout The top extends to the shelf above hiding the seam. I positioned the side seams behind tall structures to make them less obvious and the curve in the middle hides the 90 degree corner.
Joe Staten Island West
8" is VERY cramped for another deck over top an HO layout. He would do better to flip that, 8" is still cramped, but feels less so with N scale, and put the HO on top. Either case, dependng on the actuel height of said lower deck, vision will be severely restricted because of the limited 8" space - a standing adult might not even SEE the backdrop of the lower level, it being blocked off by the overhang of the upper deck.
8" also severely limits what sort of structures can be build on an HO layout And makes the trees all have to be kind of short.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
While not a multi-deck builder, I can imagine the challenge of putting in structures with such little clearance between the two levels. Eight inches is too cramped between levels and unrealistic as a backdrop height, regardless of the layout's height.
I just looked at his thread from April 19, in General Discussion, Starting a new HO and N scale Lay Out, and he doesn't mention how much space will be between them. I'm sure it's more than 8", he has more experience than that.
I'm pretty sure he's just talking about the back drop. Maybe he'll be back, and let us know.
Just putting this out there ...
If I remember correctly, the NMRA module standard calls for 14" above rail height for the height of a backdrop.
This height works good for scenic dividers on peninsulas on a layout and as scenic dividers in the layout room.
For photography purposes you can get a good panoramic shot by shooting at hi-res with a digital camera and then cropping out the fascia board and the non blue background.
One factor is what is above the layout? The layout I'm building, except for two 'blobs' (extensions to allow for reverse loops) the entire layout is being built around the walls on 16" wide shelves, with 24" wide shelves about 24" above the layout. The upper shelves have a valance coming down about 4", and are painted black (on the outside). The valances are used to hide the lights for the layout below.
This may not be as good as having a layout with a 3-4' high backdrop behind the layout, but I think it looks better than having a shelf layout with a low backdrop (like 12"-24") with bare walls above the backdrop.