SeeYou190 Day 18, Post 3: . Ran into a big problem. I accidentally mounted all the risers on the lower level 1/2 inch too high. I checked clearance under the girder bridge with a mock up, and I think I am OK, but it is closer than I wanted.. I cut out the plywood and homasote over the lower track. Then I removed some of the homasote with a coarse rasp to even out the surface with the bridge plate. . The clearance underneath is now good, but I still wish I had that extra half of an inch. . . And I verified that the cork roadbed will be smooth without any wierd vertical transitions on the bridge plate... All OK! . . Crisis averted. I hope I have no more problems tomorrow. . -Kevin
Day 18, Post 3:
.
Ran into a big problem. I accidentally mounted all the risers on the lower level 1/2 inch too high. I checked clearance under the girder bridge with a mock up, and I think I am OK, but it is closer than I wanted..
I cut out the plywood and homasote over the lower track. Then I removed some of the homasote with a coarse rasp to even out the surface with the bridge plate.
The clearance underneath is now good, but I still wish I had that extra half of an inch.
And I verified that the cork roadbed will be smooth without any wierd vertical transitions on the bridge plate... All OK!
Crisis averted. I hope I have no more problems tomorrow.
-Kevin
I had a similar situation on my last layout where I minimized the grade of two tracks, one crossing over the other. I had bought a Central Valley plate girder bridge but in order to allow the tallest car to pass under it, I had to omit the girders under the bridge entirely.
My solution was to gap the sub road bed like you did and I found a metal piece at Home Depot with holes in it that I could bridge the gap with. It was very stout so no sag possible. THen I ran the flex track right over that. The tallest double stack would just fit with a bit over 1/8th inch to spare.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 found a metal piece at Home Depot with holes in it that I could bridge the gap with. It was very stout so no sag possible. THen I ran the flex track right over that.
There are tons of solutions to problems in those big box home improvement stores.
What I cannot believe is how easy it is to miss problems when you are moving along. Then when you realize it you say "How did I miss that?"
Living the dream.
What I used was a piece of metal I found that was around 1/16th inch thick, about 1 1/2-inches wide and about 9-inches long and has holes in the ends. It was very stout and would not bend and the holes allowed me to screw it down to the subroadbed on either side of the gap.
In my case, I did engineer the grades to keep them to a maximum of 2.9% but the clearance was still such that a thin support was required to allow the tallest cars to passing under with a small margin. With the plate girder panels on the sides, the compromise is disguised fairly well, although most of the bridge parts were not used. I still have it all for a future layout, and hopefully I'll be able to use it all this time. I don't have any spots where tracks go over another at present so hopefully this won't be another conundrum to solve.
Your bridge disguise looks really good. The structural elements are all well concealed and it sure does not look like a compromise at all.
Mine will be inside of a tunnel, so cosmetics were no concern.
SeeYou190What I cannot believe is how easy it is to miss problems when you are moving along. Then when you realize it you say "How did I miss that?"
One of the advantages to using a CAD program like 3rd PlanIt is that it will tell you exactly how far one track is above the other.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Day 21, Post 1:
Time was in short supply for the layout project today. I worked a full 10 hours, so not much left, so I decided to take a small bit and go for the control panels.
I tried to mount the control panels today using the plexiglass that I bought, well... I found out why I have not used plexiglass before.
This stuff is super brittle, had to cut, and harder to drill through.
I made it to the last hole, and it broke.
I gave up.
I made this small shelf to hold the power pack I am going to use for the Tortoise swith machines. This turned out well enough.
I need more time and a better day tomorrow.
There are drill bits advertised as Plexiglass bits. Looking at them, I'm not sure what the difference is, but my experience with normal bits is like yours.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I've done it a couple times, but it was acrylic sheet, not plexiglass. I started with the smallest bit, and gradually worked my way up to what I needed, not just a pilot hole, then jump to the size you want.
Maybe I got lucky? But it worked.
It was a project my son was working on. We just needed a couple of holes for small machine bolts.
I'm not sure of the difference between acrylic and plexiglass, we went to the hardware store, and asked for plexiglass, and he said I have acrylic, so thats what we used.
Mike.
My You Tube
Pretty sure mine was plexiglas. I did just that - small pilot holes then worked up. Other say a step bit is even better. Maybe I got lucky, none of my toggle or LED holes cracked anything. I did end up with small crack - in one corner where I drilled a hole for the temporary screws to attach it to the side of the layout (I was going to build a frame around it when I got to the point of adding fascia, but I never got that far before I moved).
You have to drill SLOW. I made mine by printing another copy of the diagram, in black and white on plain paper (the actual color one in my picture is about the heaviest stock my printer would take) and clamped the two pieces with the diagram in the middle so I could see where the holes had to go. I may have actually runt he drill in reverse when i was on to the larger size drills - I'm seen that trick mentioned somewhere. Backed it up with a piece of scrap wood. I think the only thing that would have made it better would be if I had a drill press, which I didn't.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
SeeYou190When completed, the joint is secure, the tops are the rail head are even, and the brass strips can usually be pulled out with a good pair of needle nose pliers.
Kevin,
Why would you need to pull the brass strips out? Just curious.
hon30critterWhy would you need to pull the brass strips out? Just curious
I reallty don't "need" to pull them out. It is just easier to slide the replacment ties underneath the joint if the brass is gone and out of the way.
If the strips get soldered in place it is not any problem, just a little bit more difficult to get the ties in place.
I am going to get some 1/8" hardboard on the way home today to use behind the control panels.
mbinsewiI've done it a couple times, but it was acrylic sheet, not plexiglass.
I'm just catching the tail end of this part of the thread.
I've worked with lots of acrylic (PMMA) and polycarbonate at GE (GE Lexan® is polycarbonate [PM]). Plexiglas® is a brand of acrylic as is Perspex, Lucite and Acrylite.
Polycarbonate can easily be drilled, tapped, cold bent in a brake and hit with a hammer. Acrylic will shatter like... well glass.
I also use Lexan strips as edge guards where my track passes close to the edge of the layout.
I've never had much luck with tempered hardboard (Melamine panels seem to be better than just the hardboard. At least it has one very smooth "whiteboard" side to it.) for control panels as the edges get fuzzy and if you try to use the LED clip bezels you have to glue them in unless you use the metal ones.
Spend a little extra and get Lexan type polycarbonate sheet. Pretty sure the big-box stores have it.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/LEXAN-11-in-x-14-in-x-0-093-in-Clear-Polycarbonate-Sheet-GE-34/205437907
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullman Plexiglas® is a brand of acrylic as is Perspex, Lucite and Acrylite.
OK, thanks Ed, I was just going by what the guy at the hardware store said when I asked for plexiglass. He said he only carries acrylic.
Who knew?
PS. I sent you a PM about the Alclad paint you use.
Day 22, Post 1:
I hate working from home when there is so much to do. I worked 12 hours today. Not much time for layout play, but I did make some postive progress.
I made several braces to reach from the top of the PVC fascia to the layout structure just to make sure it is good and rigid prior to scenery. It was probably good enough, but you can't be too positive.
One of the braces was simply a matter of screwing a scrap piece of PVC to a nearby riser.
By the Troller Power Pack mount I just put a diagonal down to a crossmember.
Other locations required me to be a bit more creative, but it is all possible with a little bit of ingenuity and muscle.
I drilled the hardboard for the toggle switches, then made matching holes in the face plates with an X-Acto knife. I mounted the switches, then mounted the control panels into the layout.
My retaining system for the panels made from the modified L brackets worked out perfectly.
The large panel was also mounted. I went with the original face plate that was a little too small, but the graphics looked better.
There you have it. I guess I made more progress today than it felt like I did.
Work tomorrow, then hopefully a good productive weekend.
Day 23, Post 1:
The work week has ended! Starting tomorrow I get a weekend to play with the project.
My correct 63/37 solder arrived today.
I played around with soldering wires out of sight on the bottoms of the rails.
The new soldering statio is amazing, and the correct solder is great.
Tomorrow is full speed ahead...
Day 24, Post 1:
I began today by experimenting (playing) with some of the PVC "lumber" that I used for my fascia. I wanted to see how much abuse this stuff will take.
I tried to permanently deform a piece by stepping on it and bending it pretty far. No distortion at all. It went right back to its original shape.
I grabbed the top section where it is real thin above the control panel and bent it back and forth. I could not break it.
Then I purposely broke the bond where the two pieces that form the fascia panel are joined to one another. It took a tremendous amount of force to get the joint to fail. I guess the PVC glue did a really good job joining the pieces together.
Even after it broke, it was still not fully into two seperate pieces.
I think this PVC lumber might be one of the best things to happen to layout building. I would never make long-span L girders out of it, but for a lot of things it really seems like a great material.
Day 24, Post 2:
Finally putting some track in place.
I drilled #66 holes in the ties outside the rails. I do not like my track spikes to be visible, and I hate they way the look in the center hole of the Atlas ties, so I drill.
I believe these are PECO spikes that I have on hand. I really like the way the heads look on these spikes, so I hope I can find these same ones again.
When they are driven in they do not look out of place, do not take away from the scene, or stick out like a sore thumb.
On the rail side that is visible from the operating aisle, the wire feeders were soldered to the bottoms of the rails before the tracks were spiked down into place.
On the far rail, the wire feeder was soldered in place on the side of the rail after the track was spiked down.
Day 25, Post 1:
Finally installing a Tortoise Switch Machine.
Disclaimer... there is no experimenting in this procedure. I have been using and modifying Tortoise switch machines like this for twenty years. This is a how I made N scale Atlas switches work like power routing switches to simplify wiring, and it makes power routing switches much more reliable.
This is my drilling jig for Tortoise switch machines. I made this myself from a piece of 1/4" cold rolled steel bar stock and a 5/16" hinge pin.
This jig dates back to my N scale days, so the throwbar hole needs to be drilled 5/16" sized after it is carefully located. A 5/16" throwbar hole is too small for HO, but I will deal with that a little later.
The the jig is insterted into the hole and the four mounting holes are drilled. The jig was carefully made in a machine shop, so the drilled holes are very acuurately located.
Now I can drill the throwbar hole out to 7/16". Eventually I plan to get a sleeve for this jig to enlarge the alignment pin from 5/16" to 7/16" and avoid the step of enlarging the hole and risking it going off of center accidentally.
The holes are checked on top of the layout with the switch machine to be sure everything aligns properly. The check is good, so I can move on.
I did not need the hump in the subroadbed for mounting the switch machine, so I cut it off with the jig saw.
Now onto the switch machine modifications... stay tuned.
Day 25, Post 2:
This is a Tortoise switch machine that has been modified for use on the STRATTON AND GILLETTE railroad.
I added two SPDT snap switches to the body. The normally open contacts are wired for power routing. The normally closed contact is not used for these installations.
When the Tortoise throw arm reaches the end of its travel it will close the contacts. As soon as it starts moving, the contacts open, and the opposite contacts will not close until the arm is fullt at the other end of its movement.
This assures than the center (frog powered) rails will never have opposite polarity, and a short circuit. It also assureas positive powering of the frog and all center rails without relying on the points for continuity.
The wires from the switch machine are attached to this six position barrier strip for easy connection after it is installed.
This switch machine will not be used to operate trackside signals, so the Circuitron SPDT contacts are not used.
If these were needed, there would be a twelve position barrier strip used and all eight contacts on the Tortoise would be wired.
Day 25, Post 3:
Time to put the track in place, including the turnout.
I always dig a clearance trough under the throwbar of the turnout. This makes ballasting the turnout easier when that time comes.
The Homasote was a bit messy at the top of the trough, so I rubbed on a layer of wood glue to keep everything in place.
I use #4 pan head screws to hold my Tortoise switch machines in place. Always use all four mounting holes. You might get away with only using two some of the time, but it is a bad corner to cut, and it will come back to bite you one day.
Here is the track in place and the switch machine mounted. I always install my switch machines with the throw rod in the center of its movement, and I make certain that the switch throwbar is centered also. If everything is lined up in the center position, it almost always works perfectly when actuated.
The view from the bottom shows a nice neat looking final installation.
The control panel toggle is wired for controlling the Tortoise switch machine.
After everything is wired, all cicuits are checked with a digital multimeter to be 100% sure that all connections are proper and the whole device is functional. This one passed all checks.
There you have it... a customized STRATTON AND GILLETTE switch machine installation.
SeeYou190This assures than the center (frog powered) rails will never have opposite polarity, and a short circuit. It also assureas positive powering of the frog and all center rails without relying on the points for continuity.
Hi Kevin,
I recently saw an article which showed how to modify the Tortoise internal SPDT switches to prevent the possibility of a short circuit as the Tortoise travels from one position to the other. It involved cutting the traces back a bit. You will have to open up the Tortoise to make the adjustments which voids the warranty, but given the fact that Tortoise failure is extremely rare I don't think that is an issue. Of course I can't remember where I saw the article. Maybe somebody who still has a memory can post a link.
To me it would seem more cost effective to use RC servos to move the switch points if you are not going to use the Tortoise internal switches.
It all depends on what kind of turnouts you are using, if the Tortoise contact "issue" is really an issue. It is with older Walthers/SHinohara "non DCC friendly" turnouts, and it is if you simply hook power to the frog wire of a Peco Electrofrog without making any other modifications, but in the case of Atlas Custom Line is makes no difference if the contacts make or break before the points move. Or if a Fast Tracks turnout is made with the gaps cut per the instructions, or a Peco Electrofrog modified as shown on some sites (and not just for DCC - those mods make the turnout more reliable for DC as well).
Not sure if it's the FIRST article about it, but Mark Gurries has one:
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-problems/accessory-prob/tortoise-related/tortoise-powered-turnout-shorts
As Randy points out, with truely isolated frogs, the built in contacts work just fine.
A friend of mine does the extra limit switch thing, way over kill in my mind.
I generally have leftover contacts on my turnout control relays so I seldom use the built in contacts.
I use relays with holding circuits so that turnouts can be controlled with sub minature led lighted push buttons, rather than toggles. The led's indicate position, and the same turnout can be controlled from multiple panels.
My mainline turnouts are controlled on both the dispatchers panel and a local tower panel. Tower panel controls can be disabled by the dispatcher, but all panels show status.
Sheldon
Day 26, Post 1:
No pictures to post today. I am working from home again this week, and I am behind. I spent what little time I had available for hobby-fun today cleaning off the layout section and getting ready to start the wiring.
Tomorrow I should have a wiring update and progress to report.
hon30critterTo me it would seem more cost effective to use RC servos to move the switch points if you are not going to use the Tortoise internal switches.
I use the contacts on the Tortoises for panel indicators and trackside signals on the layout. Neither of these will be used on this little layout section.
rrinker Tortoise contact "issue" is really an issue. It is with older Walthers/SHinohara "non DCC friendly" turnouts, and it is if you simply hook power to the frog wire of a Peco Electrofrog without making any other modifications
I use old stlye (non-DCC) Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts. Being a DC brass steam locomotive operator, the power routing feature and solid metal frogs are really a benefit.
ATLANTIC CENTRALA friend of mine does the extra limit switch thing, way over kill in my mind.
Well... I like over-kill. The microswitches are very inexpensive and the contacts are rated at plenty of current capacity, so I think it is worth it in this case.
The relays I use have contacts rated at 5 amps, my power supplies (one for each wireless throttle) are rated at 4 amps.
I try to minimize wiring to the switch machines and do most of the wiring on my relay boards. That way more can be wired on the bench, and is easier to work on later.
I use Atlas turnouts mostly, power all frogs, and don't rely on switch points to transfer power. So I prefer the feed thru design of the Atlas, and use my relays for the power routing beyond the turnout.
What is the contact arrangement of the relays you use? We use a lot of 4P2T 24 volt relays in power transfer switch controllers, but these are very pricey, and not self-latching.
Do you have a manufacturer and part number by any chance?
I would not use these to control many of my turnouts, but I can think of a location or two where they could be quite useful.
There are plenty of turnouts that have all metal frogs without the silliness of having both point rails the same polarity - which is the issue with those turnouts. Of course, if you already have a stockpile left over from previous layouts...
The latching relays are really only needed if you want to use pushbutton control for the Tortoise. There are also any number of stupidly simple 555 time circuits that do it electronically - see Rob Paisly's web site. You could use the Tortoise contacts to drive a multi-pole conventional relay to get enough contacts for any conceivable purpose. Or go all fancy pants like the servo controller I am designing - fully populated it is perfect for those old turnouts. Before starting to move, it turns off power to the frog. Then it moves, then it switches the frog polarity, then finally turns the frog power back on. Sub a DPDT relay for the frog polarity relay and you have a second set of contacts for signals - although my circuit already has indicator lights for the control panel (I'm using the same light up LED pushbuttons shown on the Canadian Canyons layout - they're not ridiculously expensive like some).
I don't use latching relays, I use a traditional motor control holding circuit with 24V 4P2T relays. I use only normaly open buttons with built in LED's. This requires extra relays in some circuits.
The relays I bought years ago were inexpensive, about $3 ea. Some new from China, have held up well on a control system I built for a friend. And many I have bought surplus on Ebay - $1 to $3 each
Here is my schematic for a single turnout, it requires two relays. Crossovers and other interlockings with multiple turnouts only require one relay for each turnout.
I also use a relay circuit and push buttons to connect the wireless cabs to the blocks, which can all be done from the dispatchers panel, or at local tower panels as you walk around the layout.
More later, my alarm goes off early......
Fascinating circuit Sheldon.
I have a question... You are using two LEDs to indicate turnout direction with the anode and cathode reversed so they change indication with polarity. These are connected in series with the Tortoise motor.
How do you get the correct voltage drop across the LEDs? Does this just happen naturally with no additional components? I have never checked voltage drop across a stalled tortoise with another component in series.
Also, it looks like you are operating the Tortoises with 12 volts. Is that a problem? I like to run mine at 6-8 volts. At 12 volts they slam to a stop too hard for my tastes, but if they will take it, I see no reason not to do it. I know they are rated at 12 volts.
rrinkerThere are plenty of turnouts that have all metal frogs without the silliness of having both point rails the same polarity
For my purposes, I don't find the point rtails being in a common circuit at all. This feature makes DC wiring more simple.
With DCC systems, I can see it being a real pain.
My turnouts are all new. For the past 24 months I have been buy all the "New Old Stock" (NOS) old style (non-DCC) Walthers/Shinohara turnouts I can get my hands on. I think I have enough to build my layout twice.
I thought it would be hard to get a good supply of these, but like the undecorated Proto 2000 freight cars of the same era, they are still not very hard to find if you travel and scrounge around.
I have made them harder to find... sorry.