layouts - the Could, Wooda & Shoulda

[Dorassoc1]

Coulda, Wooda &Shouda

I am Chief Operating Officer of two railroads: the somewhat modest Norton’s Point and Cross Brooklyn – an urban transit and freight line set in the middle of the last century and a more grandiose HO railroad the Coulda, Wooda & Shouda Railway – the Dream Line.

The latter was born at the time my first layout was being designed.  I would have to build it myself.  None of my friends share my interest. It would be located in a 20’ x 25’ climate controlled room with special lighting; no duck-unders, minimum radius 30” dual-track mainline and #8 turnouts which allowed for my using a 4-8-8-4 or A-B-B-A Alco’s pulling a string of heavy-weights or a fifty car freight. Trains originate in Imagin, climb a 5% grade and after crossing a river plunge into a forest before reaching a foreboding mountain – Mt. Getreal and the city of Reality with its 8-stall roundhouse and accompanying turntable and a four-track passenger terminal before it makes its return trip.

And there it is… my model railroad on the cover of “Outstanding Railroads of the Year.” And I’m being compared to all the greats of model railroading.

But, it is this mountain and its unforeseen obstacles that caused the demise of the project: There was not enough space, there was not enough spare time; there was not enough funding; there was not enough skill. Thee was not enough forethought.

Three moves later and the fourth layout currently under construction I’ve finally, finally overcome that Mt. Getreal obstacle.  The trick was starting at the other end of the line – at Reality. It hasn’t eliminated all the problems and ‘rip-outs’ but it has certainly reduced their number and I have long since gotten rid of those heavy-weights and the articulated.

I’m of that age where Varney, Mantua, Model Die Casting and Globe/Athern dominated the rolling stock market.  Brass, especially in engines, was the way to go.  So this layout may be the last one I start.  But that has not stopped me from developing the mental list of should-haves.

How about you?  What does your list look like? What would you have done differently?

[SeeYou190]

I am getting closer to starting my sixth and final layout.

.

For me, every layout I have built has been for fewer operators, until this one will be only me.

.

Lessons learned:

.

1) Stop listening to people who tell you what a real model railroad should be, and listen to yourself.

2) Include ALL the items you need to enjoy the layout.

3) Don't waste your time worrying about things that will never fit.

4) If you need it to be happy, find a way to make it fit.

5) Nothing works as well for planning a model railroad than building a full sized mock up of the whole thing.

.

-Kevin

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[RR_Mel]

I think Kevin’s statement is very accurate for me also.  I designed and built my current, fourth and last layout basically using the same five statements as Kevin.  As far as shoulda done I only mised one thing.  I designed my layout before DCC really hit so it is basically a DC single train type operation even running in DCC mode.  I shoulda made a couple of long sidings to park full length trains when not in use.  Luckily I do have one 12 foot hidden siding but a couple more sidings would have been much better so that I could have more than a single freight parked and a single passenger running or visa versa.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[BigDaddy]

My first layout of 4x8' plywood looked like a yin yang symbol.  It served it's purpose.  The next layout, I had no major regrets, except I needed more yard space.

The current layout is still under construction.  I was not astute enought to figure out how to get enough elevation to have one rail cross above another, though there is still time and space for that to happen.

I never had or even considered bad track laying.  I have seen pics here in the last year where kinks are more common that straight track and globs of solder in the flangeways are bound to cause derailments.

[Bigjim7]

My latest layout is a KISS design. Keep it simple stupid. I have built large complicated layouts with tons of Bridges 'Mountains' tunnel's and tons of Hydrocal. My new layout is around the wall flat 'mostly urban' but with plenty of sidings and places where trains can go. A few Mountains in the background. But will be easy to run for the Grandkid's and famiily.

[kasskaboose]

While working on my current layout (the 2nd), I continue to learn from the 1st one.  The first served as a "testing ground."  While happy with it, I found there was a lot missing.  Fast forward to the current one and I realze that having a mental list of should-haves makes sense.  Items on that list include the following: a point-to-point arrangement, appear more realistic (e.g, design, representative VA industriies, everything is reachable and KISS for wiring).

While no where near done, I'm happy what the arrangmenet.  No need to change things.  Slight modifications can happen.  Part of the joy in having a larger layout that is somewhat simple is creating areas for more complex switching.  After awhle, I conclude that striking a balance betweeen fun and fanatical is optimal.

[richhotrain]

If I knew then that I coulda, I woulda.   

Now that I know I shoulda, I willa.   

Rich

[riogrande5761]

Dorassoc1

Coulda, Wooda &Shouda

 

So this layout may be the last one I start.  But that has not stopped me from developing the mental list of should-haves.

How about you?  What does your list look like? What would you have done differently?

 

I have been an the hobby more or less since the early 1970's.  I solicit useful feedback and help where needed, and ignore all the rest; I have a pretty good idea what my givens and druthers are being a student of John Armstrong since the early 1980's. 

For me scale plans actually work very well based on 3 layouts so far so I have never bothered with full-sized scale mock-ups.

Past layouts:

 

1st - 16x19 foot in my garage in Indiana - plywood Pacific.

 

2nd - 14x26 foot basement layout in New York - semi plywood Pacific

 

3rd - 10x18' foot basement layout in Virginia - partically scenic'd.

 

Future:

 

4th - 12.5 x 34 foot basement (in planning stage, need to drywall basement 1st)

 

My mental list of should haves:

 

- Staging/storage tracks to hold full trains.

- A good sized yard with some customers and industries to switch to increase operational interest.

- Construction techniques which allow some flexibility such as drywall screws to allow assembly and disassembly and ability to re-use materials and save on cost.

- Each layout I build, I try to learn new things to improve the next layout.
- I design my layout with possible operators in mind but mainly for myself.

 

[MisterBeasley]

I built my layout with a lower subway level direct beneath the main level, with extreme slopes to connect the levels, but only the subway trains need to climb the slopes so it's no problem.  The main level is scrupulously flat.  I made sure of that.

The layout is in storage in large pieces.  I hope to start rebuilding this spring, in a new home.

I will avoid hard to reach places for switching.  I thought I could do it with magnets, but it's not as workable as I had hoped.  I've become a bamboo skewer guy, although my turnouts are all machine driven and I like that, particularly the Tortillas.  (OK, Tortoises, but that was such a silly autocorrect I had to let it go.)

The carfloat terminal, in particular, needs to be front and center, not squeezed into a corner.  It uses Proto 87 girder rail, which is very fussy and needs significant tuning, perhaps rebuilding, before it's not so derailment prone.  Besides, the terminal and surrounding structures are a focal point I would like to highlight more.

My staging was under construction when I took the layout down.  I'll have to see how it works.

I am 71 years and this will be my last layout.   I want to take the time and get this right, and not try to squeeze in "one more industry."

[NWP SWP]

To the OP, would you mind posting a copy of the track plan? I enjoy studying old trackplans for inspiration.

[riogrande5761]

Dorassoc1

HO railroad the Coulda, Wooda & Shouda Railway – the Dream Line.  

It would be located in a 20’ x 25’ climate controlled room with special lighting; no duck-unders, minimum radius 30” dual-track mainline and #8 turnouts

So far so good.  You should be able to fit all that in to a 20 x 25 foot room and with a lower deck some good staging as well.  Might be able to increase minimum curves a tad as well depending on configuration.

which allowed for my using a 4-8-8-4 or A-B-B-A Alco’s pulling a string of heavy-weights or a fifty car freight. Trains originate in Imagin, climb a 5% grade and after crossing a river plunge into a forest before reaching a foreboding mountain – Mt. Getreal and the city of Reality with its 8-stall roundhouse and accompanying turntable and a four-track passenger terminal before it makes its return trip. And there it is…

A 5% grade pulling 50 car freights?  You are braver than myself.  I'd prefer to limit grades to half that and just "imagin" they are steeper.

Love the names of the locations on you layout.  You wouldn't happen to have graduated from the John Armstrong school of layout design.  He has some interesting names on his O scale Canandagua and Southern layout.

[Dorassoc1]

richhotrain

If I knew then that I coulda, I woulda.   

Now that I know I shoulda, I willa.   

Rich

 

[quote user="richhotrain"]

If I knew then that I coulda, I woulda.   

Now that I know I shoulda, I willa.   

Rich

 Thanks for the humor.  

 

[Dorassoc1]

First, thanks, not just for reading, but for responding to my thread.  But more importantly, I owe some of you an apology or at least a clarification. There is no Coulda, Wooda or Shoulda Railway.  I created it for this blog to make a point or several points:

Everything we do is based on negotiations - and not just in dealings with our model empire.  Sometimes we don't need another person. We negotiate with ourselves - and even then we don't always win.  Do i spend that fifty dollars on rolling stock or take my spouse for dinner?

• We learn from our mistakes - if we're lucky.
• We sometimes are not realistic about our limitations: skills, space, money, time, age.
• Sometimes our mind and imagination are not our allies; they can trick us.
• If being realistic means thinking small, it's okay - at least with model railroading. It can eliminate a lot of heartache.

Think back to that first layout and how much you tried to cram on that piece of paper.

I'm following another thread about minimum radius and the rolling stock that can navigate 18" curves. There are several responses that claim you shouldn't think about a model railroad if all you have is a 4'x8' board because nothing will work properly.  (I vehemently disagree!)  But, on the other hand those 4x8 'ers have to get real about their limitations.

Speaking of limitations, all of us are saddled with limitations.  Oh, excuse me, you, the guy sitting in his unfinished basement surrounded by thirty years of Model Railroader magazines, a magnifer to count rivets on other people's models and a computer.  You have no limitations - and no model railroad.

So, back to my original theme.  And some of you got it.  Like me, this is it - the last layout before you get laid out.  You may be too far along on your current layout to start over.  Whatever.  You mentally go into 'shoulda' mode.  It's not unhealthy.  For example, I wish I had seen the '2019 Great Model Railroads' three years ago.  There is a layout there that could have changed my present design.  Maybe if i just take out about fifteen feet of ballasted track...

I shoulda.  How about you? What would you have done differently?

Want to get a better handle on this OP?  Read his profile.

 

[HO-Velo]

Nowadays with the realities of aging and health tugging at my elbow and the sand in the hourglass seeming to fall even faster I'm wondering if completing the current layout is even in the cards.

Not long ago a visitor to my fictional freelanced layout served up a big portion of coulda' when she mentioned that the carfloat scene and brick structured town reminded her of Richmond; the San Francisco Bay east side port city that we both grew up in.

It was compelling to imagine how I coulda' based the layout upon Richmond, Ca. in the 60s.  Santa Fe's carfloat service to S.F. out of the quaint community of Pt. Richmond, along with all kinds of nearby rail served industries.  All the interesting scenes to research and choose from, not to mention field trips with camera in hand.  Oh boy, even visions of a switcher wearing the old Zebra Stripe livery.

Shouldas' can be fun to think about, but first things first; considering my average pace has been roughly 1.5 months per sq. ft. of track work and scenery that "Richmond layout" will likely have to wait till the hereafter.

Regards, Peter  

[Dorassoc1]

SeeYou190

I am getting closer to starting my sixth and final layout.

Kevin;

I've never had the luxury of building a layout designed for multiple operators.  Even with my 'around the wall' layout it never occurred to me to build it for others to operate. None of my friends nor my son expressed interest in model railroading; his friends, however, were another thing.  If I were starting again at my current age I would probably do the same.  Build it for me at my own pace with your list of 'lessons learned' in front of me.  Thanks for the guidance.

.

Lessons learned:

.

1) Stop listening to people who tell you what a real model railroad should be, and listen to yourself.

2) Include ALL the items you need to enjoy the layout.

3) Don't waste your time worrying about things that will never fit.

4) If you need it to be happy, find a way to make it fit.

5) Nothing works as well for planning a model railroad than building a full sized mock up of the whole thing.

.

-Kevin

.

 

SeeYou190

For me, every layout I have built has been for fewer operators, until this one will be only me. .

SeeYou190

For me, every layout I have built has been for fewer operators, until this one will be only me. .

SeeYou190

For me, every layout I have built has been for fewer operators, until this one will be only me. .

[Dorassoc1]

RR_Mel

I think Kevin’s statement is very accurate for me also.  I designed and built my current, fourth and last layout basically using the same five statements as Kevin.  As far as shoulda done I only mised one thing.  I designed my layout before DCC really hit so it is basically a DC single train type operation even running in DCC mode.  I shoulda made a couple of long sidings to park full length trains when not in use.  Luckily I do have one 12 foot hidden siding but a couple more sidings would have been much better so that I could have more than a single freight parked and a single passenger running or visa versa.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

 

Mel;

This is exactly the response I was looking for.  It confirms my suspicions that we all have a list of 'shouldas'.  My current layout is my first DCC controlled layout.  Unless you have a long stretch of track I don't know how one operator can run more than two trains at a time.  You wouldn't believe how many times I've had to reach for the 'power' button to avoid rear-ending a train.  In spite of that - like the first car I bought with power windows, I'd never go back to dc - or window crank handles.

[Dorassoc1]

NWP SWP

To the OP, would you mind posting a copy of the track plan? I enjoy studying old trackplans for inspiration.

 Steven;

Sorry to disappoint.  See one of  my more recent posts where I say that the Coulda Railway never existed.

[NWP SWP]

Ohh to bad, coulda woulda shoulda.

[angelob6660]

I shoulda built my first layout when I bought my first or second train set. So I could've experienced techniques. 

No matter what age you're skill set is, still the same with minor improvements.

[gregc]

sounds like your beginning the adventure ...

 

after seeing and joining the Pacific Southern RR club i got to see and operate on a large layout with an 80 car coal train pulled by a pair of articulated locomotives.

I got the experience of a large layout and large locos out of my system.

i've also seen some well built & thought out basement filling members layouts that were built with the help of various members of the club, taking advantage of their expertise: operation and layout planning, building turnouts, laying track, wiring, panels, installing turnout switch machines,  software for turnout route control, ...

can't imagine how any one person could build such layouts

 

things i'm glad i did:

recognize that building the layout was something to do in the winter months.   Never impatient for it to be complete and operate it.

built a small (< 30 sq. ft) L-shaped pt-to-pt layout.   even then it took me 4 yrs to complete the track work.   Inspired by San Jacinto and What makes an outstanding layout?

a small layout gave me a chance to hand lay turnouts and track (saving $$).    I'm currently attempting to replace one with a curved turnout (new challenge/skill)

accepted the need for tight (15") curves and restrictions on locomotive size and relatively short 5 car trains.

left room for "dream" space where I built a vertical staging yard.   (You should have staging).

with trackwork completed --

built some structures out of foam

got interested in Arduino processors and have used them for turntable control, signaling and an NCE cab.

a small, even incomplete but operatable layout allows time for layout accessories (e.g. signaling, animation, ...) !!

 

fortunately i have few regrets.   And considering that we'll be moving since retiring, don't have strong attachments.

 

[Medina1128]

My current layout is a variation of a folded dogbone because I had to share the basement (train room) with the ex-wife. If I were to start over, I'd make it an around the walls layout. With longer expanses of rail, I would have been able to have more industrial sidings and had a double track mainline.

[gregc]

forgot to mention Tony Koester's Designing & Building Multi-Deck Mode Railroads

he tore down a fine railroad after recognizing various issues (shoudas).   The book describes the replacement.   I covers material not unique to a multi-deck layout.

[MisterBeasley]

Hopefully, this next layout will leave me with no remaining "shouldas." .It's likely to be my last.  It will mostly be a reconfiguration of my last layout, adapting it to both fit in its new space and take care of things I noticed in the previous years of building and running trains.

If the new design can't accommodate everything I want, well, so be it.

[cuyama]

gregc

he tore down a fine railroad after recognizing various issues (shoudas). 

It’s a great book, but that’s not an accurate description of Koester's reason for replacing his layout, which he has described in detail. His modeling interests changed from a mountain coal hauling proto-freelanced line (Allegheny Midland) to a flatland TT&TO prototype (Nickel Plate). To get the extra running length needed for TT&TO, he moved to multiple decks.

[HO-Velo]

Just like the TV ads, "But wait, there's more!"

While reading DORASSOC1's profile a big bunch of coulda' hit me like a ton of bricks.  Here I am living with what's left of the old Sacramento Northern Railway mainline almost in my own back yard, and so too the wonderful Western Railway Museum which houses many fine examples of SNR and other's trolly cars and interurbans, yet "I could not see the forest for the trees."

Not only coulda' modeling a small portion of the SNR with simulated car barge or ferry service across the Sacramento/San Joaquin rivers be fascinating, it also coulda' provided lots of interesting research and short field trips.  And as an extra bonus; maybe it coulda' been a good way to get my better half involved in the hobby as she loves history and field trips that include going out to lunch.

As an old retired Marine I worked under used to say, "That tunnel vision will kill ya' everytime."

Thanks and Regards, Peter