How do you cut the Tortoise lever wires to the right length?

[hon30critter]

Hi gang:

We have just begun to install the Tortoises on our new club layout. We are using Velcro to position them initially, and then installing screws once they are in the right place. We had hoped to use the Velcro by itself but it isn't sticking to the plywood properly.

We started by cutting the wire to the right length if we were using Velcro alone but when we screw the Tortoises up tight to the bottom of the subroadbed the Velcro is compressed and the wire is pushed up through the throw bar and is then too tall. We bought a pair of Xuron hard wire cutters but the blades are too thick to allow the wire to be cut flush with the throw bar.

We thought about using a Dremel with a grinding stone but we are concerned about getting metal filings all over the track, and we are concerned that the heat being generated might damage the throw bar.

We thought about stapling the Velcro to the plywood but we feel that would leave the Tortoises prone to being knocked loose.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Dave

[HO-Velo]

A pair of diagonal cutters can cut a lot of .030 music wire actuators pretty close to flush with the throwbar, tough to squeeze, but some slip joint pliers make for more than enough leverage.  A rag placed over the wire before cutting is a good idea as the cut off piece becomes a dangerous missle.  but the diagonal cutter is going to be pretty much wrecked, luckily I had an old worn pair to sacrafice.

Btw, eye and face protection a must.

Regards, Peter

[gmpullman]

 

I'm in agreement with Peter. I make my own actuator wires and I purposely leave them a little long to aid in my installation method. The wire I use is .034".

 

I have several pair of Klein Tool No. D-228-8 diagonal pliers. They cut hard music wire with no problem. As Peter says, be prepared for the cut end to fly. I place a masking tape "flag" on the scrap end to hold on to. More than one has shot into the ceiling tile and stuck there.

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/high-leverage-diagonal-cutting-pliers/8-high-leverage-diagonal-cutters

Carefully angle the diagonal cutter between the points and the result is the wire is cut at just the right height.

Cheers, Ed

[richhotrain]

gmpullman

I'm in agreement with Peter. I make my own actuator wires and I purposely leave them a little long to aid in my installation method. The wire I use is .034".

I have several pair of Klein Tool No. D-228-8 diagonal pliers. They cut hard music wire with no problem. As Peter says, be prepared for the cut end to fly. I place a masking tape "flag" on the scrap end to hold on to. More than one has shot into the ceiling tile and stuck there.

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/high-leverage-diagonal-cutting-pliers/8-high-leverage-diagonal-cutters

Carefully angle the diagonal cutter between the points and the result is the wire is cut at just the right height.

Cheers, Ed 

At one time or another, I have installed nearly 100 Tortoises on my layout. There is a tolerance for error when installing Tortoises. I line up a Tortoise and screw it in, and the alignment has never failed. Forget Velcro and just install the screws. By the way, I get by with two screws, one in front and one on the opposite side in back.

I install the wire with about 1/2"  longer than I will ultimately need. Once the Tortoise is installed and positioned correctly, I use standard wire cutters to clip off the excess.

Rich

[Pruitt]

I always used a Dremel with a cutoff wheel. Never worried about the burnt chips, and they were never a problem.

[BigDaddy]

End cutting nippers have more umphf.  Wear eye protection

https://www.grainger.com/product/3LY74?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!50916771957!!!g!82128211437!&ef_id=W5f5-wAAAHhePThU:20180912121100:s

[gmpullman]

BigDaddy

End cutting nippers have more umphf.

Have 'em. Tried 'em. I can't get as close with those which leaves too much wire sticking up through the throwbar.

Nipper_C by Edmund, on Flickr

Nipper_K by Edmund, on Flickr

Well, everyone has a preferred method. I have a bunch of the Klein Tool side cutters. I'll never wear them out in my lifetime. I like to have just a bit of wire sticking out above the throwbar. 

Regards, Ed

[peahrens]

gmpullman

I have several pair of Klein Tool No. D-228-8 diagonal pliers. They cut hard music wire with no problem. As Peter says, be prepared for the cut end to fly. I place a masking tape "flag" on the scrap end to hold on to. More than one has shot into the ceiling tile and stuck there.

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/high-leverage-diagonal-cutting-pliers/8-high-leverage-diagonal-cutters

I purchased a similar tool for this purpose as my small generic wire cutter pliers did not have sufficient hardness or leverage.

I used 3M double sided foam mounting tape to locate the Tortoise on my 5/8" plywood, threading the wire through the (centered) throwbar hole from underneath (a flashlight above the hole helps in stabbing the hole) and then added 2 screws at diagonal spots.  Then cut the protruding wire atop the throwbar.  If needed, the Tortoise can be wiggled loose, even after a period of time, and the position optimized if needed as the tape is sticky but can be wiggled loose, then pressed back in place (and the screws added again).

https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Scotch-1-in-x-1-66-yds-Permanent-Double-Sided-Outdoor-Mounting-Tape-411DC-SF/100575385

The Tortoise instructions suggest a 1/4" hole for the wire, but I changed to 3/8" to give a bit more lattitude.  It can depend on the thickness of your roadbed + subroadbed. 

[gmpullman]

Been a while since we've had a Tortoise 101 thread here 

So, for marking the screw locations I had a machininst friend make up a marking jig for me.

Fixture_MC by Edmund, on Flickr

Here's a quick rundown of my installation process:

Track is laid on center lines to the point where I know the exact location of turnout. I temporarily set turnout in place, using  2 or 3 rail joiners. I slip small shims on either side of the points to center them (hollow coffee stirrers, tooth picks or short lengths of small heat shrink tube) and I slip a small square of Post-It^® Note paper under the throw bar, sticky side down.

I use a push-pin to mark the location of the Tortoise wire hole in the throwbar, then remove the turnout being careful not to disturb the Post-It.

I enlarge that pin hole mark with an awl. This gives me a good start for a brad-point drill. I use at least 3/8" diameter, too. A few are probably 7/16". Then I clean the splinters from the hole and the underside.

Now I can set the turnout in place permanently. I use a piece of slippery Mylar^® with a slot cut in it. This keeps stray ballast and stuff from falling into the hole and provides a slippery surface for the throwbar to slide on.

While the points are still centered, I place that jig up from underneath the roadbed and give 'er a few raps with a block of wood or small mallet after I look through the hole and make sure the wire on the jig is in the throwbar and the base is square with the throwbar.

Fixture by Edmund, on Flickr

Now I have the four screw holes marked, I use the awl again to make them a little deeper. As I mentioned, I make my actuator wires plenty long as it is easier to hit that tiny hole in the throwbar with a longer wire. I manually center the prepared, wired Tortoise and set it in place.

Fixture_z by Edmund, on Flickr

If I recall, I use three #6 x 5/8 pan-head phillips sheet metal screws. 2 on the fulcrum side and one behind. There have been a few mountings in awkward places where I'll use a 3M double-stick mounting square to help hold the machine in place but I still follow up with at least two screws, preferably three, not too snug. Test the installation before trimming off the actuator wire.

I don't have the exact count handy but it is in the range of 120 or-so. Never had a Tortoise fail! (Even after I've drilled a few of them by mistake )

Thank You, Ed

[RR_Mel]

I temporally position the switch machine first then mark the throw arm wire for the cut with a Sharpie.

 

Next I use a small hot (blue) flame from a small propane torch to heat the wire until it becomes red taking out the temper for about a ¼” where it needs to be cut.  Hold the steel wire to be cut with pliers between the heated spot and the switch machine to prevent the heat from getting to the plastic.

 

After letting it cool slowly I install the switch machine permanently then cut the wire to the correct length using regular mini side cutters.

 

With the temper removed the steel wire is as soft to cut as copper.

 

I’ve never had any problems leaving the temper out of the throw wire.  If you feel that you need to put the temper back simply reheat the wire to red in the same place and quickly cool it with water.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[ROBERT PETRICK]

File this under the headline: World Ends, N-Scalers Suffer Most

I cannot cut off the excess wire after the Tortoise is installed because I cannot get close enough to the throwbar, even using the smallest, tiniest, most pointy hard-wire cutters I could find. I tried. I have even severely damaged turnouts trying.

Now, I have a golden wire template and measure and cut and bend the wires as carefully as possible. Then install. Then check to see if the little nub sticks up too far above the throwbar. If it doesn't, then I do a small, discrete victory dance and move on. If it does, I eyeball the amount that needs to be cut off and remove the wire and make the cut. Then reinstall. Then recheck. Then adjust. Repeat as necessary.

I installed about thirty Tortoises (so far) this way. Just another thing in the world of N scale.

Sympathy to all who need some. 

Robert

 

[RR_Mel]

ROBERT PETRICK

File this under the headline: World Ends, N-Scalers Suffer Most

I cannot cut off the excess wire after the Tortoise is installed because I cannot get close enough to the throwbar, even using the smallest, tiniest, most pointy hard-wire cutters I could find. I tried. I have even severely damaged turnouts trying.

Now, I have a golden wire template and measure and cut and bend the wires as carefully as possible. Then install. Then check to see if the little nub sticks up too far above the throwbar. If it doesn't, then I do a small, discrete victory dance and move on. If it does, I eyeball the amount that needs to be cut off and remove the wire and make the cut. Then reinstall. Then recheck. Then adjust. Repeat as necessary.

I installed about thirty Tortoises (so far) this way. Just another thing in the world of N scale.

Sympathy to all who need some. 

Robert

 

 

 

Robert if you remove the temper out of the Tortoise throw wire standard 4½” nippers will cut the wire almost flush.  I use the 5” Harbor Freight Micro Flush Cutters for cutting NS rail and non tempered steel wire up to .03”.

 

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pliers/micro-flush-cutter-90708.html

 

Their slim nose will cut very close to the ties.  Their flush cut jaws will chop off the end of up to code 100 rail easily leaving a very clean edge on the rail.  Cut from top rail to the bottom, not the rail width.

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[rrinker]

 I have a pair of Klein hardened nippers, they cut close enough for me - if you go parallel with the rails instead of across like Edmund's photo you can get closer.

 Centered turnout/Tortoise and cutting perfectly flush to the top of the throwbar may actually allow the wire to slip out at the extreme ends of the throw. The centered position is where the wire will stick up the most - and is the position a tain can't go through the turnout anyway, so if it isn't perfectly flush, no harm. In normal or revese position, it needs to be low enough not to snag on couplers or axles.

 I use servos, but the work the same way - I use double sided tape for a temp hold until i get screws in the mounting brackets, but I leave the wire long until the screws are in place. Of course, if the wires were already cut to length prior to installation and now they are a tad too long, cutting off the excess is still needed - but if you haven't already done this for every switch machine, from now on leave them long and do one cut to length - after the screws are in place.

 As already mentioned - eye protection is a MUST when cutting the end of the wire off - anotehr reason I like to leave it long until the last step, because I can hold the soon to be free end with one hand while cutting with the other so it doesn't go flying. Short bits being cut off - they WILL shoot out like a bullet and it hurts hitting your face. Hitting your eye - VERY bad thing. Even if it doesn;t fly up and hit you - be sure to locate the cut off piece because it can easily land in a flangeway or some other place guaranteed to cause problems when a train rolls through. If you cut off 5 wires, you should have 5 little cutoffs in hand.

                                                --Randy

 

[ROBERT PETRICK]

RR_Mel

ROBERT PETRICK

File this under the headline: World Ends, N-Scalers Suffer Most

I cannot cut off the excess wire after the Tortoise is installed because I cannot get close enough to the throwbar, even using the smallest, tiniest, most pointy hard-wire cutters I could find. I tried. I have even severely damaged turnouts trying.

Now, I have a golden wire template and measure and cut and bend the wires as carefully as possible. Then install. Then check to see if the little nub sticks up too far above the throwbar. If it doesn't, then I do a small, discrete victory dance and move on. If it does, I eyeball the amount that needs to be cut off and remove the wire and make the cut. Then reinstall. Then recheck. Then adjust. Repeat as necessary.

I installed about thirty Tortoises (so far) this way. Just another thing in the world of N scale.

Sympathy to all who need some. 

Robert

 

Robert if you remove the temper out of the Tortoise throw wire standard 4½” nippers will cut the wire almost flush.  I use the 5” Harbor Freight Micro Flush Cutters for cutting NS rail and non tempered steel wire up to .03”.

 

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/pliers/micro-flush-cutter-90708.html

 

Their slim nose will cut very close to the ties.  Their flush cut jaws will chop off the end of up to code 100 rail easily leaving a very clean edge on the rail.  Cut from top rail to the bottom, not the rail width.

 

Mel

Hey Mel-

Thanks for the info. I re-read your previous post. It sounds like it might work. Just a couple of things. 

The wire that comes with the Tortoise is 0.025" and the one I used is one size larger 0.032". But if it works like you say, then it shouldn't be a problem. 

N gauge track is 0.354" (9 mm). I need to be able to open the jaws of the cutters and get a deep enough bite on the wire to flush-cut the (annealed) steel close to the throw bar and get enough leverage on the 4- or 5-inch handles. Do you think those Harbor Freight cutters can do that? They cost about one-quarter as much as my Xuron rail cutters, so even if this experiment doesn't work, it won't be too expensive a lesson.

Also, I've read your posts for years and you've never given bad advice, but I gotta ask . . . Is it possible to heat and anneal only about 1/4" of spring steel wire? And if so, is it really as soft as copper? I know several guys who have tried to cut this kind of wire with their expensive Xurons, and they ended up with semi-circular notches of shame in their tools to show for it.

Robert

[rrinker]

 Rail nippers don't have hardened blades - they are only made for cutting soft metal like brass and nickel-silver. Cutting music wire or other hardened metals WILL ruin them. 

                                            --Randy

 

[RR_Mel]

ROBERT PETRICK

 

 

Hey Mel-

Thanks for the info. I re-read your previous post. It sounds like it might work. Just a couple of things. 

The wire that comes with the Tortoise is 0.025" and the one I used is one size larger 0.032". But if it works like you say, then it shouldn't be a problem. 

N gauge track is 0.354" (9 mm). I need to be able to open the jaws of the cutters and get a deep enough bite on the wire to flush-cut the (annealed) steel close to the throw bar and get enough leverage on the 4- or 5-inch handles. Do you think those Harbor Freight cutters can do that? They cost about one-quarter as much as my Xuron rail cutters, so even if this experiment doesn't work, it won't be too expensive a lesson.

Also, I've read your posts for years and you've never given bad advice, but I gotta ask . . . Is it possible to heat and anneal only about 1/4" of spring steel wire? And if so, is it really as soft as copper? I know several guys who have tried to cut this kind of wire with their expensive Xurons, and they ended up with semi-circular notches of shame in their tools to show for it.

Robert

 

Robert

 

Like most everything in our hobby there can be a learning curve and using a small propane torch requires just that.  Many years ago I bought a Blazer Micro Torch for working on my HO railroad stuff.

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Blazer-GB2001-Self-Igniting-Butane-Micro-Torch/dp/B07B42VMSF

 

They have gone up in price since I bought mine; I paid around $12 for it in the 90s.  The propane refills are readily available.

 

The super small blue tip flame will exceed 2000° so it isn’t a toy, it is a precision micro torch.  

 

The blue tip can easily melt a .03” wire in seconds while maintaining the heat to a ¼” area.  Only heat the wire to a red glow then slowly let it cool.  It will be as soft to cut or bend as copper wire.  To put the temper back to original hardness reheat it to a red glow then cool it rapidly using water.

 

I use the micro torch to solder brass strips and sheeting for scratch building, I find it better than soldering irons large enough to do the same job, it’s smaller, lighter, quicker and more precise.

 

As for the Harbor Freight cutters I rarely use my Xurons anymore.  The flat cutting side of the HF cutters make a better rail cutter that the Xurons.  If and when I do ding the HF cutters they are less than half the price of the Xurons.  I think that the HF cutters make a cleaner cut too, code 83 rail cuts like butter.

 

The HF cutters will cut up to .062” copper wire and K&S brass tubing with ease.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[hon30critter]

BigDaddy

End cutting nippers have more umphf. 

Hi Henry,

Will the jaws fit between the rails?

Dave

Edit:

Ed, I hadn't seen your pictures when I made this post. Thanks.

[hon30critter]

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

I have a pair of Craftsman side cutters that are fairly hefty. We will give those a try before spending any money. I'm not concerned about ruining the blades.

Thanks for the safety reminders! My fingers have been impaled by bits of phosphor bronze wire a few times so I understand the risks.

We have decided to do away with the Velcro because it just isn't working for us. We will use two sided tape to position the Tortoises temporarily and then screw them into place. We tried screwing the Tortoises in with the Velcro still in place but as the Velcro is compressed it causes the Tortoise to shift sideways thus moving it out of position.

Dave

[richhotrain]

hon30critter

We have decided to do away with the Velcro because it just isn't working for us. We will use two sided tape to position the Tortoises temporarily and then screw them into place. We tried screwing the Tortoises in with the Velcro still in place but as the Velcro is compressed it causes the Tortoise to shift sideways thus moving it out of position.

When I install a Tortoise, I position it and visually verify that it is properly in place. Then, I drill two pilot holes, one front and another opposite back, while holding the Tortoise firmly in place. Then, I screw the Tortoise to the underside of the plywood. Works every time. No Velcro, no 2-sided tape. It is far easier than you might first think.

Rich

[BigDaddy]

hon30critter

Will the jaws fit between the rails?

I'm sure you can get the corner of the tool in.  I'm not  at home until this afternoon and I can check.  The larger version of the tool have a wider, flatter area at the nose, so a flush cut could be a problem.

[RR_Mel]

Dave

 

 

I bought a pair of KNIPEX 02 08 200 Side Cutters specifically for cutting piano wire and they work great!!!  They won’t get into tight spaces but I’ve cut very large piano wire with them and not dinged the cutting edge.  They are pricy but work great and well worth the cost!

 

 

They also make small cutters that I’m sure would work for cutting Tortoise wires.  The part number of the small cutters is KNIPEX 70 06 160.

 

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=s6WaW9TVDYexsAHfyJ7QDA&q=KNIPEX+70+06+160+Diagonal+Cutters&btnK=Google+Search&oq=KNIPEX+70+06+160+Diagonal+Cutters&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299l2.3053.3053..5599...0.0..0.346.665.1j0j1j1......0....1j2..gws-wiz.....0.afxQog1sM9k

 

If I was going to be installing a bunch of Tortoise switch machines that’s the way I’d go even at $30 to $40.

 

 

 EDIT:

 

For once my picture came out better than the real thing.  The handles are actually quite dirty.

 

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[BigDaddy]

8" end nipper sitting on an Altas #5 HO turnout.

[hon30critter]

Hi Henry:

Thanks for the close up shot. It appears that the tip of the cut wire would be below the height of the rails so it shouldn't be a problem.

Dave

[hon30critter]

Hi Rich:

I'm inclined to use the double sided tape as insurance to make sure that the Tortoise is placed properly. Keep in mind that this is a club situation so we have to choose a method that several people can work with reliably.

Thanks

Dave

[richhotrain]

hon30critter

Hi Rich:

I'm inclined to use the double sided tape as insurance to make sure that the Tortoise is placed properly. Keep in mind that this is a club situation so we have to choose a method that several people can work with reliably.

Thanks

Dave 

I suppose that there is some advantage in having severall or all of the members become proficient in all phases of layout construction including Tortoise installation. But, if I were making the call, I would find the guy who is best at installing Tortoises and assign that task to him.

Rich

[hon30critter]

richhotrain

I suppose that there is some advantage in having severall or all of the members become proficient in all phases of layout construction including Tortoise installation. But, if I were making the call, I would find the guy who is best at installing Tortoises and assign that task to him.

Well, that's kind of the point. If only one guy is doing any specific task then what are the others doing besides twiddling their thumbs and sitting around. Yes, there is more than one thing happening at any one time but we still have members who aren't doing anything. In several cases they have finished their assigned tasks (i.e. eventually there is no more rail to lay) and we need to keep them busy or risk them losing interest. These people are quite capable of installing Tortoises so why not put them to work? Everything that is being done is being checked and rechecked, and yes, some work has had to be done over but not too much.

There are a couple of guys whom we would rather not have working on the layout, but fortunately they are too old to be able to get under the layout anyway. When we get to the scenery stage we may have to be a little more direct where work is not up to standard.

Dave

[rrinker]

 Just don;t cut the wire to length for the tape alone. Leave it long, then when the screws get installed after the Tortoise is tested, cut it off once, the longer piece will be able to manage during the cutting process. The extra length won't interfere with making sure the Tortoise moves the points to each side, and makes a convenient handle to 'snap' the points to make sure they are properly being pushed against each stock rail. Then you can add the screws, check one last time that installing the screws didn;t knock anything out of position, and finally cut off the wire. I left the wires long for my servos as well, initially stuck on with double sided tape, then added screws. The longer wire made it easier to feed up from the bottom, or so it seemed. The only downside was the long wire could be an issue if someone leans over the layout - that's why I flagged the end with blue painter's tape, so I wouldn't stab myself leaning over the tracks.

                                        --Randy

 

[richhotrain]

I agree with Randy on leaving the Tortoise wire longer than needed during installation. I let the wire protrude at least 1/2" up through the turnout throwbar. It makes installation easier and quicker.

Rich

[hon30critter]

rrinker

 Just don;t cut the wire to length for the tape alone. Leave it long, then when the screws get installed after the Tortoise is tested, cut it off once, the longer piece will be able to manage during the cutting process. The extra length won't interfere with making sure the Tortoise moves the points to each side, and makes a convenient handle to 'snap' the points to make sure they are properly being pushed against each stock rail. Then you can add the screws, check one last time that installing the screws didn;t knock anything out of position, and finally cut off the wire. I left the wires long for my servos as well, initially stuck on with double sided tape, then added screws. The longer wire made it easier to feed up from the bottom, or so it seemed. The only downside was the long wire could be an issue if someone leans over the layout - that's why I flagged the end with blue painter's tape, so I wouldn't stab myself leaning over the tracks.                                         --Randy

That is the plan.

Thanks Randy

Dave