OK friends, I've got a problem for you: I'm trying to do some ballasting on my new layout and I can't seem to get it to work correctly. I am using the standard of using the wet water (diluted with a few drops of dish soap). I am also using school glue diluted with water to glue down the ballast. Where the problem occurs is when the wet water and the glue mixes dry, the top of the ballast is still loose. What am I not doing correctly? As usual, any help the forums can provide would be most welcomed.
How deep is your ballast? I have some areas where the ballast and sub-ballast is almost 2" deep, and it's all as solid as can be.I'm not sure what the "school glue" might be: I use LePages' or a generic-brand of white glue. I find a mix anywhere between 1 part glue to 2 parts water, up to almost half glue/half water works well. I apply the wet water using a sprayer, and apply it until it seeps from the bottom of the ballast, then use a dropper-type bottle to apply the diluted glue mixture, until it also appears at the base of whatever depth of ballast is present. Don't skimp on either the wet water or the glue mixture. The deeper the ballast, the longer the drying time - don't rush it by using a hair dryer. I've had some areas take up to a week to solidify completely. Once dry, it can be vacuumed using a shop vac equipped with a crevice tool, and nothing will move.I can only guess that the glue/water mixture ratio might be the issue, or that the glue itself is not the equivalent of regular white glue.
Wayne
"Wet" water is a mix of IPA (isopropyl alcohol) and water and should be generously sprayed over the ballasted track. Add a drop of dish soap to a mixture of 40% white glue and 60% water and apply carefully with either an eye dropper or - my preference - a syringe. Apply drop by drop until the ballast is really soaked.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Effective ballasting is all about how you secure it. Over time and experimentation, I have found that the most effective method is to spray isoprpyl alcohol over the ballast, immediately followed by application of the glue mix with an eye dropper.
The alcohol spray prepares the ballast for easy and thorough absorption of the glue mix. My experience is similar to Wayne's in that there is never any loose ballast as a result.
Rich
Alton Junction
Just a quick note:
.
Everyone seems to like "eye droppers", but if you want a good one, search eBay or Amazon for a "pipette" instead.
I bought a very good glass tube pipette with a rubber bulb and a 4ml capacity for less than $5.00, and it makes applying ballast glue a pleasure. Much better than looking for a suitabe eye dropper.
I do not use dish soap. I use Kodak Photo-Flo 200 to make my water "wet", and it works like a charm. It is about $10.00 for a lifetime supply from a photographic supply outlet.
I soak the ballast with wet water first from a fine mister, then apply diluted white glue with the pipette.
What kind of ballast are you using? I have heard of similar problems with Woodland Scenics ballast. I have never used it. I only use Arizona Rock & Mineral ballast, and I have never had this problem.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Never had a problem with WS ballast. If the grey (the color I use) is ground up walnut shells, they are the hardest walnut shells I've ever seen, they don't crush very well even with a hammer. ANd it never floats on me - but I use alcohol, not soapy water. There's now ay to put enough soap in the water to cure the hardness problem around here. I wet the ballast with straight 70% isopropyl, no water at all. I dilute the glue with 70% isopropyl, no water.
When I tried the drop of soap method, I had the opposite issue - the top was hard buit it was just a shell, the glue/water did not soak through. I switched to alvohol and you can clearly see it wick through the ballast.
For applicators - there's a brand of mustard we can get here, maybe not everywhere in the country, that has a rather fine tip that twists, like a much smaller version of the tip on a bottle of glue. This is more than fine enough to regulate the flow. I'm not sure what the super precision of a pipette buys you, other than frequently having to refill it. Like I said, I do NOT have problems with the ballast floating away like soome claim - I suspect they are using plain water, or they too have hard water and adding a couple of drops of soam does not actually work. The alocohol, I can even appoly along the outside edge and watch it wick up under the ties, usually wets the whole thing except the very center, so one more pass down the center get the whole thing wet, then apply the glue in the same way. No floating, no crust, it all sets up solid (and the alcohol mixed with white glue seems to make it a bit rubbery, so it's not rock hard. I tried matte medium which is a whole lot more expensive, and there was no difference in sound as the loco moved from one part to the other. So when I get to that point again, I will just buy white glue in the gallon jugs and use that for everything).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Much appreciate your post since I plan on ballasting the 2nd layout after ensuring the track work is flawless.
Are you using rubbing alcohol? On my 1st layout, I put rubbing alcohol over the ballasted track with a spray bottle. Once that's down, I then used Elmer's white glue with water mix in a 50:50 ratio. Youtube has a vid of Woodland Scenics folks only using their glue on the ballast without alcohol.
It seems that both alcohol and wet glue are needed. I don't think your version of "wet water" does anything. You need rubbing alcohol!
My 1st layout was dish soap and water. When I took that layout down, there were a couple spots where the bottom layer of ballast was not glued. If the top isn't glued, I think you aren't using enough glue.
I switched to alcohol/water, in part because I am doing very small areas and am using a little spray bottle that once held eyeglass cleaner. It puts out a very fine mist.
I don't think you need straight 70%, one part in four parts water is good enough. Nor do I think the minimum amount of glue is known. You can dilute it quite a lot.
I have used 10cc syringes in the past. Currently my glue bottle has one of those caps that filps back and has small round hole. I have also used a generic spray bottle. That can blow balast away if it is too strong.
Put enough glue on so that it looks swampy, make it more than just damp but not so much that gjue is running away from the roadbed and going into the town.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
FRRYKid OK friends, I've got a problem for you: I'm trying to do some ballasting on my new layout and I can't seem to get it to work correctly. I am using the standard of using the wet water (diluted with a few drops of dish soap). I am also using school glue diluted with water to glue down the ballast. Where the problem occurs is when the wet water and the glue mixes dry, the top of the ballast is still loose. What am I not doing correctly? As usual, any help the forums can provide would be most welcomed.
The issue might be related to the glue. There is something about that School Glue. It does not seem to be the same stuff as good old Elmer's White Glue.
I use yellow carpenter's glue, either Elmer's or Tite Bond; the original, indoor, non-waterproof versions. Diluted with alcohol. The outdoor, waterproof versions (such as Tite Bond II) are permanent after they harden and cannot be softened later.
Ballast is wetted with diluted alcohol sprayed on with a micro-drop aspirator mister. Thinned glue solution carefully applied via small squeeze bottle with pointy spout, similar to eye dropper. Capillary action sucks solution into ballast until evenly saturated.
The slightest of slightly yellow-tinted coloring of ballast does not concern me.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I am using the mentioned Arizona Rock & Mineral ballast. The color of the particular ballast I am using matches my prototype.
What I have found is that I just need to use additional applications of the glue mixture. That seems to "lock" down the loose ballast. I am also thinking that I might be trying to apply the glue mix too soon when I do the original application. I need to let the wetting agent soak in a little bit more as the wetting agent is diluting the glue mix down too much.
I use straight alcohol from the bottle, applied with a pipette. I only ballast a few inches at a time, applying the glue with a small Elmer's glue bottle. I don't spray anything. The alcohol let's the glue harden faster, but it's still at least overnight.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I use straight alcohol from the bottle, applied with a pipette. I only ballast a few inches at a time, applying the glue with a small Elmer's glue bottle. I don't spray anything. The alcohol let's the glue harden faster, but it's still at least overnight.
While I get good results using tap water and a few drops of dish detergent, I don't care for the smell of alcohol, nor for the fact that it dries so quickly - I do ballasting measured in feet - usually 12' or 15', and often including a number of turnouts, so the alcohol might be mostly evapourated by the time I get to the last part of those lengths.I've used both Woodland Scenics ballast and real rock ballast, too, with equally good results - no floating, loose ballast, or crusted ballast over loose material.
I put down and smooth all my ballast first. Then I work in small sections so the alcohol doesn't have a chance to dry. By alternating between the pipette of alcohol and the bottle of glue, it goes quickly with no spray mess.
ROBERT PETRICKThe issue might be related to the glue. There is something about that School Glue. It does not seem to be the same stuff as good old Elmer's White Glue.
That's one of my thoughts too. I do not like school glue whatsoever for scenery use, as the holding power seems to be lacking compared to more conventional glues.
Rob Spangler
School glue is definitely not the same formula as the traditional white glue which is not the same formula as the yellow carpenters glue. The traditional white glue is supposed to be non-toxic but perhaps it's not quite non-toxic enough for modern standards, so they came up with the school glue. Or maybe it's just less sticky so less mess when kids inevitably get it all over everything - maybe a replacement for paste - always hated that stuff, even as a kid I didn't like the way it dried hard and cracked compared to white glue. Born out by finding all the old school art projects my Mom saved, 40+ years after, that were pasted together and just fell apart.
As for applicaiton - I've adopted the "Coody Grivno Method" with great results. I tried one of those MLR tools a long time ago - hated it. Seems smoother and easier to use a foam brush and shape the ballast. The lid on the mustard jar I mentioned is very similar to the nozzles on those hair color bottles.
rrinker As for applicaiton - I've adopted the "Coody Grivno Method" with great results. I tried one of those MLR tools a long time ago - hated it. Seems smoother and easier to use a foam brush and shape the ballast. The lid on the mustard jar I mentioned is very similar to the nozzles on those hair color bottles. --Randy
What is Cody's method? If it is spooning the ballast on and brushing with a foam brush, I tried it and it does seem to work pretty well.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
What I have found most frustrating about the ballasting process is the resulting coverage. In my view, the ideal coverage is one in which there is no ballast on the ties. In my experience, that is the most difficult challenge in applying ballast.
rrinkerThe traditional white glue is supposed to be non-toxic but perhaps it's not quite non-toxic enough for modern standards, so they came up with the school glue. Or maybe it's just less sticky so less mess when kids inevitably get it all over everything - maybe a replacement for paste - always hated that stuff,
I can say from experience that Elmer's School Glue absolutely cleans up off of surfaces like tables and coutertops much easier than Elmer's White Glue. It also washes out of clothing completely, even after it has dried hard.
It also washes off of skin easier than white glue.
However, it is no where near as fun as white glue to let it dry on your skin and then peel it off. It does not peel well at all.
My ballasting methods are slightly different from the ones here.
I get the ballast on the track by whatever means works best for the area I'm working in. For easy access areas of the track, I pour it straight from the ballast container while walking along the track. For tight spaces or switches, I use a tablespoon or small measuring cup. I spread the ballast with a small soft paint brush. Then I LIGHTLY tap on the rails with the brush handle to settle the ballast around the ties.
For glue, I mix water, Elmers white glue, and alcohol in a large size Elmers glue bottle. Shake well. I dribble the glue mixture down the middle of the track. At first, the glue will lay on the top of the ballast but within a few seconds, it soaks in. Then the second coat of glue is added. Usually, the sides of the ballast will appear wet or the top of the ballast will appear wet. At this point, I know that all the ballast has been glued all the way through, and I let it dry.
In some places, I have added India ink to the glue mixture to make the ballast a little darker.
richhotrain What I have found most frustrating about the ballasting process is the resulting coverage. In my view, the ideal coverage is one in which there is no ballast on the ties. In my experience, that is the most difficult challenge in applying ballast. Rich
School glue is not permanate, if you add water it will become liquid again. It is ment to wash out of kids clothes
If you, or someone you know, wears contact lenses, the empty contact lens solution bottles make GREAT solution applicators. You get the control of the best eye-dropper or pipettes with a volume that lets you complete most of the job without refilling. The various wetting and cleaning solutions come in various sized bottles so you can find a size that works best for you!
Hornblower
My ballast is Arizona Rock & Mineral, and like several others, 71% alchohol as a wetting agent followed by 3:1 water:white glue with a few drops of detergent. Both are applied with an Elmer's squeeze bottle closed down so only drops come out. It could be that the OP is trying to ballast too much of a length all at once.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Wayne, when was doing a lot of ballasting I scanned the internet, mostly youtube, and no matter what applicator method is used, some ballast on top of the ties is as inevitable as the sun rising in the east.
bearman Wayne, when was doing a lot of ballasting I scanned the internet, mostly youtube, and no matter what applicator method is used, some ballast on top of the ties is as inevitable as the sun rising in the east.
Wet the ballest with the glue mix till it turns white.
I think you might have two issues. First, I'd stop using wet water and go with straight 70% isopropyl alcohol. You can use a fine mist spray bottle or eye dropper or pipette to apply it. Second, school glue is already pretty well diluted. There was a Cody's Office story about the different holding abilities a few months ago. You might want to look at it. I purcase regular white glue by the gallon and dilute it 50/50 with water and add a few drops of dish soap. That combination works well for me.
rrebell bearman Wayne, when was doing a lot of ballasting I scanned the internet, mostly youtube, and no matter what applicator method is used, some ballast on top of the ties is as inevitable as the sun rising in the east. Maybe a few spects but you can get it down to almost nothing.
Maybe a few spects but you can get it down to almost nothing.
I agree...if you're getting a lot of ballast on the ties, too much has been applied, and was then not groomed sufficiently to leave capacity between the ties to accept the particles which the "bouncing brush handle" normally bounces off the ties and into that space.