I use Kato unitrack so I am not actually trying to ballast traditional track. However, I do need to lay a thin layer of ballast in flat spaces near the track. I am concerned about disturbing the ballasted area once I have material spread like I want it. I expect to wet the area with a light mist of isopropyl alcohol then apply an adhesive. I know everyone has their own favorite glue/water/whatever mix and I plan to experiment to see what I like best.
My question concerns the best way to apply the adhesive layer without disturbing the loose ballast material. I would prefer a fine mist but I am not sure an adhesive mix would work very well in a sprayer. I know most use some sort of dropper method for track ballasting but I am concerned the drops would move the material around.
Is there an adhesive mix I can apply as a spray mist?
Paul D
N scale Washita and Santa Fe RailroadSouthern Oklahoma circa late 70's
Paul
I think that your best bet would be to put a coat of full strength glue to the flat area and then sprinkle on a layer of your ballast while the glue is wet. After it dries well you can vacuum up the excess or add more if needed. This could then be fixed with alcohol and diluted glue dribbled on with a dropper. I've never had much luck spraying glue.
Joe
I bought 1 regular school size bottle of white Elmer's and a gallon jug of the same. Dumped some out of the squeeze bottle, added water( 4 water, 1 Glue), drop or so of Dawn dishsoap, shake to mix and used that as an applicator. It comes out as light/slow or heavy/fast as I wanted it. Didn't disturb the ballast.I misted wet water first.
Worked for me on over 500' of track.
Hope that helps.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Since I am not using this for actual ballast, I have also considered a dry glue powder to mix with ballast and then set it with a water mist. It is a one step process and it appears that it performs well but creates a very hard surface.
Once you've pre-wet the ballast (I prefer water with a couple drops of dish detergent, as it doesn't evapourate as quickly as alcohol, thereby keeping the ballast wet long enough for you do do a fair amount of ballasting).
The pre-wetting is one of the most important steps, so even if you're adding only a thin layer of ballast, be sure to use enough wetting agent to penetrate right down to the roadbed. Using a dropper or other means to add the diluted glue will then not likely disturb the ballast at all.
Wayne
I think we are getting a few things mixed up here.
If I have understood you correctly, you are not talking about adding ballast to the plastic roadbed of the Kato Unitrack, but either want to fill the space between two 8or more) tracks or add a thin stripe along the track. If that´s the case, simply brush on white glue where yoou want to have the ballast and sprinkle the ballast over it. Vacuum away any excess material after the glue has set. If you want to have a straight sharp edge, use masking tape.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
PED...I expect to wet the area with a light mist of isopropyl alcohol then apply an adhesive....
As I mentioned previously, regardless of where you're placing the ballast or how thickly or thinly it will be applied, a "light mist" of wetting agent (alcohol or "wet" water) will be insufficient. If the ballast is not wetted down to whatever it rests upon, the glue will not fully penetrate and your ballast will float when the glue is added.
You can also use the method which Ulrich suggests, but after you apply the full-strength glue and sprinkle on the ballast, the area should have a wetting agent applied, as it will allow the glue to better adhere to the ballast. That method, with the wetting agent, works for ground foam, real dirt, and pretty-well any kind of ground cover you wish to use, and the method which I outlined in my previous post will also work with ballast, and ground cover of almost any type.
The rock fill (crushed hardened Durabond) and ballast in the photo below, is as deep as it appears. I applied tape, backed by a board clamped to the layout's fascia, to hold the loose material in place as it was added....
When I sprayed the area with wet water, it penetrated right down to the hardened plaster-on-screen landform, and, as you can see, eventually seeped down behind the tape and onto the fascia, too. I added diluted white glue with this dropper-bottle...
and continued to apply it until it also began to appear at the bottom of the rock fill. I then left the area for a few days to allow the glue to harden. If I wanted to remove that at a later date, it would be hammer and cold chisel time.
Don't skimp on the wetting agent and don't skip on the glue! The wetting agent ensures that the glue goes to where it needs to be, rather than left to harden near the surface where it will be visible.
I am not sure what the purpose of the ballast is supposed to be if the OP is not ballasting track. And, at the risk of spray misting on this parade, if the OP is using WS ballast, which is crushed walnut shells, I really don't see how he can avoid disturbing the loose material although there should be plenty of time to move the material around before the adhesive sets.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
PED I use Kato unitrack so I am not actually trying to ballast traditional track. However, I do need to lay a thin layer of ballast in flat spaces near the track. I am concerned about disturbing the ballasted area once I have material spread like I want it. I expect to wet the area with a light mist of isopropyl alcohol then apply an adhesive. I know everyone has their own favorite glue/water/whatever mix and I plan to experiment to see what I like best. My question concerns the best way to apply the adhesive layer without disturbing the loose ballast material. I would prefer a fine mist but I am not sure an adhesive mix would work very well in a sprayer. I know most use some sort of dropper method for track ballasting but I am concerned the drops would move the material around. Is there an adhesive mix I can apply as a spray mist?
In my experience, spraying alcohol on the surface first will do a good job of wetting and holding the ballast, even WS ballast, while you then apply the glue mix. I agree that the glue mix may clog the sprayer. I use an eye dropper to apply the glue mix, and it does not disrupt the ballast if pre-sprayed with alcohol.
Rich
Alton Junction
My intent here is to use ballast material as gravel on a surface to represent a gravel parking lot, road or anything else where I want that textured look.
For gravel parking lots, I plan to use WS fine ballast (gray). It is very fine and I am satisfied that the texture is OK for my N scale parking lot.
For areas between track (Unitrack), I plan to build it up slightly with ground goop and then apply some Kato ballast to make it look more like ballast that has spread from the track. The Kato ballast is a mixed color that closely matches the Unitrack.
I have decided that I do not want to apply any adhesive with a sprayer. Do not want to be cleaning any adhesive off surrounding track or structures.
After earlier comments and info I have seen elsewhere, I am am now considering the following approach. This approach would only use wet water as a spray...never any adhesive spray.
1) Apply a full strength or slightly diluted white glue mix with a brush to the area. Would work in small areas at a time to keep glue from drying out.
2) While glue still wet, apply the ballast material. Would be a relatively thin layer. No depth needed...just enough to provide a complete covering.
3) Immediately, mist with a wetting agent (wet water vs isopropol acohol?). Get it very wet but no puddles. My assumption is that this step will cause the glue layer to wick up into the ballast material and make it fixed when dry.
4) When step 3 is dry, vaccum up any loose material. Since the ballast is now firmly in place, it will be easier to patch up any bare or thin spots with more ballast and diluted glue without disturbing the inital ballast layer.
Comments?
Ok, Paul, now we are getting somewhere. I use the same technique more or less for my desert (using sifted paver sand) and gravel roads and parking lots.
Use full strength white glue poured out of the container per your step one and then spread it out to a thin layer with a credit card or putty knife. I use an expired credit card. It will take time for the glue to set, so you probably will find that you can work with a bigger area.
At this point you spread your ballast per step two and then you have two choices.
Either put some weight on the area, scrap lumber with a brick for weight, or apply a wetting agent (I use 71% alchohol) and then apply a dilute white glue/water mixture, which is the way I do it. I do not believe that the wetting agent alone will wick the glue up into the ballast material. Then wait for everything to dry, vacuum and patch as necessary. If the area that you are scenicking is flat very little material will move around.
Here are two images of a portion of my yard which were scenicked per my method.
https://imgur.com/Num1FNn
https://i.imgur.com/3Nf0aZi.jpg
I put together a test area this morning and the results are encouraging so far. Will not know for sure until everything is totally dry.
I applied a fairly heavy layer of Elmers Glue All (not school glue) to a flat test area and then sprayed it with wet water (not isopropal acohol) so that it was pretty wet. All the moisture turned white so I was left with the impression that the glue did indeed wick up into ballast. Glue has dried enough such that it is clear now. Looking good so far. Will know more when everything is totally dry.
PED My intent here is to use ballast material as gravel on a surface to represent a gravel parking lot, road or anything else where I want that textured look. For gravel parking lots, I plan to use WS fine ballast (gray). It is very fine and I am satisfied that the texture is OK for my N scale parking lot.
Paul, I would be really curious to find out if the base layer of glue wicked up into the material.
Rich, do you get many bare spots with that method?
Hello all,
PED...I have also considered a dry glue powder to mix with ballast and then set it with a water mist.
Check out this thread...
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258968.aspx
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I spread my ballast dry. Then I dribble on alcohol with a pipette. This avoids spraying which disturbs the ballast and results in overspray. I then apply thinned white glue from a small Elmer's bottle.
The straight alcohol let's the ballast glue dry and harden much faster that "wet water."
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
jjdamnit Hello all, PED ...I have also considered a dry glue powder to mix with ballast and then set it with a water mist. Check out this thread... http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258968.aspx Hope this helps.
PED ...I have also considered a dry glue powder to mix with ballast and then set it with a water mist.
I already saw that thread. That and one other posting is what got me thinking about the dry powder method. The old powder from JMD plastics does not appear to be available any longer - their web site is gone and no longer available via Walthers. Another similar product is Ballast magic from UK. Appears to be same as the JMD plastics but is very pricy. The Weldwood product you tested has a tan color to it and I did not think it would work well with my gray ballast. In theory, the dry powder approach is very appealing to me but I have not found a product that I am willing to go with.
So far, I am happy with the glue and wet water approach I noted above. My test patch is not completly dry yet but looks like it will work. I also tested some 70% isopropal acohol in lieu of wet water and I don't think it will turnout as well as the wet water approach. Did not appear to wick the glue up into the ballast as well. Will know more after that test patch dries.
PEDThe Weldwood product you tested has a tan color to it...
Yes, the color of the dry product is tan but when wet it becomes clear with a sheen.
After mixing Isopropyl alcohol with black (India) ink, as the wetting agent, the sheen has been eliminated.
This has method has gone beyond the “tested” phase and is how I now ballast my entire pike.
I harvest my own ballast from local sources and this method of using the dry plastic resin glue works extremely well with natural products- -I have yet to use it with dirt.
When I need to remove the ballasted track I simply use plain water to saturate the dried ballast and it comes up easily leaving the roadbed in place and undamaged.
Then I simply rinse the used ballast, allow to dry and it is completely usable again.
The resistance to use this method over traditional glue and wet-water method simply reinforces the “good enough for man and boy” attitude.
It doesn't surprise me that the sellers of the repackaged dry plastic resin glue have gone out of business for basically reselling an existing product.
For the doubters please refer to my signature.
My test sections have dried and they look great. On both, I spread some Elemers Glue All then sprinkled ballast (WS Fine Gray) on thick enough to provide total coverage then I sprayed one section with wet water and a seperate section with 70% isopropal alcohol. My initial impression was that the wet water seemed to wick up the glue better but after both had dried, I could see no difference in the final outcome. In both, the glue DID wick up into the ballast and there was zero loose ballast when everything was dry. I even spilled ballast into a small pile on the wet water sample and the glue had wicked up to make that small pile solid.
I am happy with the results. This will allow me to make a gravel area in a very controlled maner with no worry about adhesive spray or glue getting onto the track or areas I do not want it.
Observations
1) Be sure to use a spray bottle that can apply a fine mist. My first attempt on the wet water approach used a small spray bottle but the spray was too course. Even with the ballast laying on the glue,there was enough loose ballast on top to get blown around by the course spray. I used a different sprayer with a very fine mist to do the isopropyl alcohol wetting solution and did not have that problem. I did not let the spray hit ballast with any force. I kept the spray above the ballast so that it could settle on the ballast in a gental manner.
2) My test was with a very fine ballast (WS Fine). I do not know if the glue would wick up as well in a more coarse ballast material.
3) I used Elmers Glue All because I had a gallon of it handy. I do not know how well Elmers School glue would work but I would expect it to work good also.
bearman Paul, I would be really curious to find out if the base layer of glue wicked up into the material.
bearman Rich, do you get many bare spots with that method?
Without any pre-wetting I apply the glue mix with a brush, shake the Woodland Scenics ballast generously over the area, and then vacuum up any loose ballast when the area is dry.