Scenery construction methods? a couple of new questions added Oct 25

[BigDaddy]

railandsail

I think one problem with the papier maches and cardboad is they are materials that can absorb moisture over time, and thus possible develop molds, etc

I had my aluminum sided house power washed last year and it's moldy again.  The wall paper in my dining room has been there for 18 and there is no mold yet.  It has to be pretty damp, indoors, to have a mold issue. 

 

[railandsail]

I think I recall a fellow mentioning this problem on his very mountainous layout during a tour of layouts in the DC area,...and it was inside a home.

I would be concerned about this problem with my outdoor shed contained layout that will not always be strickly climate controlled.

[rrinker]

 I've seen more than one article that mentions throwing a capful of bleach in when mixing papier mache to keep the mold out.

                            --Randy

 

[cowman]

Don't see an answer to your question on paper  mache (sp).  There is a product called Sculptamold that is often used and I understand it doesn't shrink as much.  As for mold, another additive to the mix that some people use is Lysol.  Never had a mold problem, so have never used anything.

Good luck,

Richard

[hon30critter]

Hi Richard:

Thanks for the reminder about Sculptamold. Less shrinkage may make it a better option than papier mache.

As far as mould is concerned, the layout room does have a very faint musty smell sometimes but I attribute that to the very old carpet and a very poor ventilation system. It hasn't affected any members that we are aware of so I'm not inclined to worry about it too much. There is no sign of mould in the windows, and we can open the windows when the weather permits.

Dave

[BNSF UP and others modeler]

My experience with paper mache is that it cracks over time, so i did not suggest it.

[selector]

I use a combination of techniques for the sake of skills development/maintenance, to change things up a bit so I don't get into a rut doing one loooooonnnng task, and to use the right materials for the right job.

As some have pointed out, extruded foam is durable.  It can have coverings for extra fine contouring.  It can be patched up when an elbow goes into it.

If you want really tough and resistant covering closest to where inadvertent/impulsive contact is likely to cause damage to more friable materials, I would urge you to use exterior spackle.  It's like concrete and not easily sanded, if at all, once it is set...as the instructions on my batch caution me.  Durabond of the kind that Doc Wayne uses might be close to that. 

I use Joe Fugate's goop over aluminum or plastic window screen supported via 'arms' of 1X2 comprising a riser cleated to the benchwork and then cross members of more 1X2.  It's quite strong that way, and the screen across longer expanses can be supported with plastic bags stuffed with rags or newspaper crumpled up for resistance.  If you want convex slopes, use more bags stuffed behind the screening.  If you wanted truly hard and durable surfaces, you could shape foam, or lattice, or the ground goop, and just apply a top coat of spackle where you anticipate you'll need the most robust material to keep effort, materials, and costs to a minimum.

In the image that follows, note the support struts I mention, but also the roll of polyfiber flocking used to suspend and to shape the screening over an intended tunnel.

[hon30critter]

Thanks selector.

We overestimated the number of 1x4s that we needed for the benchwork so we have lots of material to support the scenery.

Dave

[Schuylkill and Susquehanna]

Shaping foam is difficult (and makes a huge mess) unless you use a hot wire cutter.  I don't have one, so I tend to stay away from making landforms out of foam.  I've also found it to be difficult to get shallow slopes or near-vertical slopes - any time when you have to make a cut at a shallow angle.  I've use a keyhole saw, a rasp, and sandpaper.

I tend to prefer cardboard strips over profile boards with plaster cloth and Sculpamold (or a homemade variant made using plaster of paris and paper that's been run through a blender).  It still makes a bit of a mess (what doesn't in this hobby), but it's nothing in comparison to finding little bits of pink foam all over for months.  Since you have an abundance of foam insulation, I'd suggest using that for profile boards instead of masonite, chipboard, or plywood.

The techniques presented in "Broad Backdrop Hills in a Narrow Space" by Sam Swanson (March 2009 MR) might work well around the edges of the layout.  The mountains were made from 3 or 4 inch thick pieces of foam board 18 to 24 inches tall, and greatly extend the visual depth of the layout when covered with puffball trees.  Conifers present a slight problem, but there is likely a way to make large numbers of "flattened" trees that could be used to forest the hills.  Perhaps by pressing pipe cleaner trees between two wax paper covered boards while the glue and ground foam dry?

[trainnut1250]

Dave,

If you want strong - use either hydrocal or casting plaster over screen. Base coat 2 layers of plaster soaked paper towels and a finish coat over that. I prefer slow set plaster for the finish that is not rock outcropping. I've used this method on several layouts.

The plaster sets up like cement and is very durable. I had to use a heavy weight hammer to smash through some hydrocal when removing the last layout - the sawzall couldn't get the job done!! I'm sure the Durabond is similar in terms of durability.

I don't feel that goop, paper mache or plaster of Paris will give the durability and strength to stand up to that "one guy who likes to lean on scenery" that seems to be in every group.

To save money buy plaster in big bags at the plaster and lath supply store (not WS or HD) - there is one in most medium sized cities.

 

To much from me,

Guy

[hon30critter]

Schuylkill and Susquehanna:

Thanks for the suggestions. I will look up the article you mentioned.

By the way, Mike Lehman has made very effective use of chenille to make tons of background trees quickly and easily.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/243702/2714178.aspx#2714178

 

This will give you an idea of what the material looks like and how to make trees out of it (although personally I would avoid the sparkles):

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/make-glitter-trees-from-chenille-bumps-2365046

 

Guy:

Thanks for your input. It is not "too much from me" at all!

Dave

[Tinplate Toddler]

Should the answers in this thread be representative, the majority of model railroaders seem to prefer traditional (or should I say old fashioned?) methods of creating the scenery on their layouts.

There is no method which does not create a mess, but I found building up the landscape on my last layout using extruded polystyrol (Styrofoam or "pink foam") less messy than any other method. A good shop vac takes care of all those tiny scraps and bits of foam quite efficiently.

There is one big advantage the use of foam for scenery has - it´s a dry process. Water and "trains" with their rather delicate electronics don´t mix well and so does lumber and water. Ceertainly a point to think about!

[hon30critter]

Tinplate Toddler

There is no method which does not create a mess, but I found building up the landscape on my last layout using extruded polystyrol (Styrofoam or "pink foam") less messy than any other method. A good shop vac takes care of all those tiny scraps and bits of foam quite efficiently.

Hi Ulrich:

Given that we will have a source of pink foam at no cost, I'm going to recommend that we make extensive use of it. We will just have to deal with the errant bits with our shop vac, and maybe some anti-static spray.

However, I still anticipate the need for some sort of covering over the foam in order to do away with the appearance of even layers. I have seen too many layouts where the layers of foam are obvious. Kudos to the layout makers for their efforts, but as the construction foreman I will not allow that to occur on the club layout. Scultamold, rock molds and plaster cloth are easy fixes for the layered appearance. Yes, there will be some additional mess. I will just have to make sure that nobody puts the excess plaster down the drain!

Dave

[Tinplate Toddler]

Dave,

instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue?

[hon30critter]

Tinplate Toddler

instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue?

I think that the consistancy could be a problem unless you were able to grind the foam 'chunks' into finer pieces. However, if you could figure out a way to do that without creating even more mess, the ground foam could certainly be mixed in with whatever material like Scultamold that you are using.

I don't think that just adding straight glue to the foam bits would work. It would take too long for it to firm up. I can see it slowly flowing off of any non-horizontal surface it was applied to long before it becomes firm enough to stay in place.

Dave

[riogrande5761]

Tinplate Toddler

Dave,

instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue? 

That sounds really messy.  I've used the plaster cloth and it's pretty minimal in terms of fuss and mess.  I just cut square of it, dip it in water that is in a paint roller tray and lay it on the subscenery - cardboard stripping.  Not much to dislike and not very messy.

[rrebell]

riogrande5761

 

 

Tinplate Toddler

Dave,

instead of using plaster, plastercloth or Sculptamold, why not use the tiny bits and pieces of foam, mixed with (diluted) white glue? 

 

 

 

That sounds really messy.  I've used the plaster cloth and it's pretty minimal in terms of fuss and mess.  I just cut square of it, dip it in water that is in a paint roller tray and lay it on the subscenery - cardboard stripping.  Not much to dislike and not very messy.

 

You forgot the messy part of smoothing it out. Just messy for the hands but washes off real easy in a bucket of water.

[RR_Mel]

[quote user="hon30critter"

 

 

RR_Mel

I’ve used premix Paper Mache for over 50 years as a sub base for it’s strength and durability.

 

 

Hi Mel:

Where do you get your Papier Mache and who is the manufacturer?

EDIT: I found a product called 'Celluclay'. Is that what you use? Also, how large an area will a 5 lb. bag cover?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[/quote]

Sorry for the delay, I haven’t visited this topic because of the shrinkage problem.  Yes I’ve used 'Celluclay' for about 40 years.  Early on I bought it from Toys R Us, when they stopped carrying it I found it at Michaels then switched to Beverly Fabrics as their store is much closer.

 

The only problem I have experienced with 'Celluclay' is the shrinkage and I solved that by using Saran Wrap between the 'Celluclay' and the base.  With the 'Celluclay' on the Saran Wrap it becomes a shell and easily removable.  In my 40 years of using 'Celluclay' I’ve never had any cracking or mold.

 

I use three or four layers old damped news papers as the base for my 'Celluclay'.  I guess if I had to say what I disliked about using Paper Mache it waiting of it to dry.  A ¼” to ⅜” thick layer of 'Celluclay' can take two days to fully dry.

 

I use a 10” steel mixing bowl (left over from Mom) and mix in small batches.  The 'Celluclay' is easily mixed with water and I add Elmer’s white glue to the mix just for kicks.  I add about an ounce of Elmer’s All Purpose glue to the mixed 'Celluclay'.  I don’t know if it makes any difference but I’ve always added it to Paper Mache, it’s something I learned from my mother many many years ago.

 

About 70% of the scenery base on my current mountainous layout is 'Celluclay'.  It has been through some very tough times over the last 30 years.  Early on my garage wasn’t temperature controlled and the summer heat in the garage would get up to 108° and as low as 38° in the winter.  That really screwed up my soldered HO track but absolutely no damage to the 'Celluclay' or scenery.

 

I’m sold on 'Celluclay'!

 

One of the members on the Forum put me onto Sculptamold a couple of years ago and I find it superior to Paper Mache for ease of use and it carves much better than Paper Mache but in my books 'Celluclay' Paper Mache is much stronger than Sculptamold.

 

As for coverage I think it took two and a half 5 pound bags to cover my 10’ x 14’ layout at about ⅜” thick.

 

 

Mel

 

 

My Model Railroad   

http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

 

Bakersfield, California

 

I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

 

[hon30critter]

Thanks for the details Mel.

Dave

[CNSF]

If you can get extruded foam cheaply or for free, I'd recommend starting with that and see how far it takes you. There may be certain situations where you may decide other methods will work better, but I'm having success using foam for pretty much everything, with applications of "goop" over top as needed to fill gaps or get the exact contours or textures I want. The biggest advantage is probably that you work it dry; so you can stop work and come back to it later whenever you want. You can carve rock faces or gullies directly into it; use a rasp or sandpaper to shape and texture a field or whatever, stack it up (or down) for mountains or river valleys, etc. And it's much easier to plant trees or telephone poles in than a rock-hard surface.

Yes, you need to have the shop vac on hand and clean up as you go, but I still prefer that to dealing with spilled plaster drips. A tip: because the filter in my vac doesn't always catch all the fine particles, I've added another filter over the exhaust using a scrap of old panty hose and a rubber band. That works really well at keeping tiny flecks of foam from showing up all over the layout room.

[dmikee]

Try experimenting with spray foam (the kind used for building insulation). You can use small sized bubble wrap for the basic form (over cardboard strips). The foam kits cover about 1 foot by 12 ft up to 1 inch thick. Then, just paint the foam with your favorite earth tone base and zip texture as you go.Don't use the foam in the can, it will not be easy to shape. You can buy the foam on Amazon.

[BRENDAN BROSNAN]

I use Celuclay ( a brand name for paper mechie) over the styrofoam to smooth out the contours. It dries much harder than plaster. Michael's has it and I use my weekly 40% off coupon. Who still makes and caries screen wire anymore. The only thing I can find is a nylon screen and while strong, doesn't rust etc. (great for window screens) but not worth a dime for plaster base because it doesn't hold its shape. For a large club layout as a finish coat consider spraying the acoustical ceiling spray (without the glitter) with small styrofoam dots in it. Makes a great base for zip texture. Sprays on fast and can be done in multiple coats if needed. Just cover all the track first.

[hon30critter]

CNSF, dmikee and Brendan:

Thanks for the suggestions.

Dave

[hon30critter]

Hi again gang!

I have a couple more questions for doctorwayne:

I'd like to know how much Durabond 90 you used. Can you calculate how much per square foot, or do you have another way of figuring out how much?

Do you put the Durabond straight on to the wire screen or do you use something to stop it from flowing through?

How do you keep your trees up straight?

 

While I'm at it, can I ask everyone how much track (single) a bottle of Woodland Scenics ballast will cover? Likewise, how much Arizona Rock and Mineral ballast is needed to cover a three foot length of flex track?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[MisterBeasley]

I use pink foam for my basic landscape structure.  I cut it either with a knife or a hot wire cutter and attach it with white glue.  I keep the sections small, only a few feet long, so I can take them apart if necessary.  The beauty of foam is that it's very light.

Next I use plaster cloth to cover the foam, using it to bridge gaps and smooth over the cut lines.

I mix batches of Gypsolite and add craft paint to color it tan, not its normal gray.  I apply a skim coat.  The result is an earth colored, gritty surface ready to paint.

I typically brish on washes of green and tan in a camouflage pattern.  When the paint dries, I start with turf and then finish with ground foam and different shades and lengths of static grass.

[doctorwayne]

hon30critter

Hi again gang! I have a couple more questions for doctorwayne: I'd like to know how much Durabond 90 you used. Can you calculate how much per square foot, or do you have another way of figuring out how much? Do you put the Durabond straight on to the wire screen or do you use something to stop it from flowing through? How do you keep your trees up straight?....

Dave, I'm afraid that I'm not organised enough to measure or calculate the amount of Durabond I use:  I also use it when I'm doing mostly small-ish drywall projects for family members...when the amount in the bag gets low, I just go out and buy another. 

I usually apply it to the aluminum screen using a wide scraper or drywall knife, and it's mixed thick enough that it needs to be spread around with the tool.  It therefore varies in thickness, depending on both the shape I want and by the amount the screen sags under the weight.  As you've probably noticed, the unforested parts of my layout don't necessarily have proper geography because I know that it will eventually be hidden by the trees.

If the landforms will be more visible, I use a cheap 2" paint brush, dipped frequently in water, to smooth the contours before the Durabond sets, and sometimes use my hand, too.  In both areas, spreading the Durabond does force some of it through the screen, but in my experience, not enough to fall to the floor below.  Because it does go through the screen, I think that's what gives it the extra strength which allows me to support most of my weight on it - reinforced plaster!

As for trees, when the plaster has hardened and I'm adding ground cover and trees, pretty-well all trees need to have holes drilled, preferable closely sized-to-suit.  I simply put a blob of white or yellow glue on the bottom of the tree's trunk and jam it into the hole.  In most cases, the tree will stand on its own, but if it doesn't or doesn't stand in the manner you want, simply use something to prop it up until the glue hardens.

hon30critter

While I'm at it, can I ask everyone how much track (single) a bottle of Woodland Scenics ballast will cover? Likewise, how much Arizona Rock and Mineral ballast is needed to cover a three foot length of flex track?

Hey, Dave, that's like the "How long is a string?"  question.   Again, I'm not organised enough to bother measuring, but then I certainly didn't have as much track to ballast as your club's layout has.
It will, of course, depend a lot on how deep you apply it and on the profile of your roadbed.
I started out modelling parts of two different railroads (both freelanced), and decided that they didn't get their ballast from the same quarries, so used two different WS's colours.

That's Grand Valley trackage to the left, below, and Erie Northshore's heading right...

When I added the partial second level, I also used some fine limestone screenings given to me by a good friend in Ohio.  When that ran out, I bought two or three 50lb. bags of limestone screenings locally (there are lots of quarries in my area), and after screening it further, got useable ballast that's somewhat different in appearance (quelle-surprise!) than the stuff from Ohio.  This is very prototypical, because a railroad is likely to buy ballast fairly close to where it's needed or where they can get it at a good price.  If you have a few "I wanna help but I'm really inept." club members, maybe you could put them to work re-screening screenings.

Perhaps I'm a little more organised than I thought - the blue container shown below, from my friend in Ohio, weighed about 10lbs. give-or-take, of ballast...

Using that ballast, I ballasted from the bridge in the background to the camera...

...and from there to to the curve in the distance....

and then around the curve, too...

That included some areas of quite deep ballast (atop rip-rap)...

...and a bunch of double track too...

In total, though, that's only about 40' of track. While that ballast was free, the screenings which I purchased at a local lumber yard were five bucks for a 50lb. bag.  (I went to a nearby quarry first, but they no longer sold directly to the consumer - I used to buy gravel there regularly, and a pick-up truck load - close to two tons - was $20.00.)  
I would guess that the five dollar bag of screenings, on normal track, would go at least as far as a container of WS ballast, and at less than half the cost.  However, it is not ready-to-use:  I sieved mine four times using progressively finer mesh, the last being through a spatter-guard meant for a frying pan.

Wayne

[hon30critter]

Thanks Wayne - lots of great information.

If I can ask another question, were the limestone screenings that you bought at the lumber store the same thing that is commonly used as a base for paving stones, i.e. the larger pieces are about 1/4" across?

Dave

[doctorwayne]

Yeah, that's the same stuff, Dave.  If I recall correctly, I saved a container of ballast and a container of mostly dust (the latter for use on industrial sidings, probably mixed with some real dirt and some ground foam....maybe some static grass, too. 
I used some of the remaining bigger stuff yesterday to set a small walkway across the driveway in the backyard, as the grandkids don't like walking on gravel in their bare feet to get to the pool.

Wayne

[hon30critter]

doctorwayne

I used some of the remaining bigger stuff yesterday to set a small walkway across the driveway in the backyard, as the grandkids don't like walking on gravel in their bare feet to get to the pool.

I was wondering what you did with the rest of the material. I'll ask the club members if anyone has a need for the leftover screenings.

Dave

[doctorwayne]

If possible, do the screening somewhere other than where the layout is.  I did mine while sitting on a chair in this aisle of the layout room...

...and while I worked slowly and methodically so as to not make a lot of dust, pretty-well all of the lower level visible in the photo was covered in a layer of it.

Structures and bridges, along with trains, vehicles and other details, all got a coating of it, requiring either vacuuming in-place or off-layout, or cleaning with a brush.  The Maitland River, nowhere near the site of the sifting, got a good layer, as seen here being vacuumed with the bridge removed...

...and the same for Chippawa Creek, at the far end of the aisle, seen here partially vacuumed...

Once seived to an acceptable size and with the dust removed, the ballast is quite clean and shouldn't create any dust problems when ballasting.

Wayne