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Train Shed Layout,... Lighting

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Train Shed Layout,... Lighting
Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 8:42 AM

 

 

I believe I need a couple of LED tube lights for my 'train shed' (12x16) double deck layout, but I am totally a novice at this LED lighting subjec

I'm pretty sure I will make use of LED strip lighting to light the lower shelf/decks (underside of upper deck), ...but I was unsure what to do about the upper deck lighting? Perhaps just ceiling lights like old florescent ones, but newer LED versions. Perhaps a row of single/dual tube fixtures (LED ones) down the center of the room, or two rows of fixtures down the ceiling at either side of center.

Whats the latest in 'LED tubes', and minimal fixture size, and best pricing???





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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 8:44 AM
Reply
Your low overhead and relative lack of insulation (yes, I see some, but this is still a steel building) suggests that LED strip lighting may be what works best for you. It' takes up very little space compared to track lighting, which usually hangs down 4" to 6" from where t's mounted. LED strip lights are even thinner than a tube-type fixture (~2") since they can be surface mounted and are maybe 0.25" tall. Heat can be a big issue and LEDs put out virtually none.

Plus, LED strip lights can usually be surface hung on the ceiling without the need for a contractor, permit, or code inspection by the property owner or resident. LED strip lights can also be repositioned easily if the initial install needs adjustment.




I believe that idea of strip lighting on the ceiling was an idea I initially considered, and now that I rethink it, is one I should reconsider.

It was only recently as I installed the masonite sheets over the interior insulation that I realized how dark it was going to be inside the shed until I got it painted a lighter color and installed some sort of lighting to use during 'benchwork' construction, etc.

Perhaps I should just install some surplus fluorescent tube lights as a temp solution until I decide on a more permenant solution?

But I would really like to determine my needs for wiring up whatever lighting I will eventually use, and get it installed before I close up that center portion of the 'rafters'. The LED strip lighting would be realitively easy to 'hang', .....and I think easy to wire up,...probably easier than fluorescent type fixtures?

Aren't the LED's somewhat 'directional' in their lighting,...such that I would have to be concerned with their locations mounted approx 5 ft over the top deck?

Also it is not as though I am building this layout inside a home, and thus being concernned about 'home like appearances' such as track lighting, recessed lighting, etc..

This is just a train "shed'.

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 8:47 AM

8 LED shop lites for $62

8 four-foot long LED lights, and linkable, all for $62

These are the latest 'shop style' lites I found at Amazon,...

(Pack of 8) LED T5 Integrated Single Fixture 4FT,20W,2200lm,6500K (Super Bright White),Utility led Shop Light, LED Ceiling light and Under Cabinet Light
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...P85O3COJ&psc=1

That's less than $10 per lite, and they are linkable,..




I have some concerns about the 6500K spec?

I'm thinking I could link 3 of these down either of the two sides of my 15 foot long ceiling in my shed,...for 'room' lighting?

Might even be usable for under upper shelf lighting?
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Posted by BigDaddy on Sunday, January 07, 2018 9:08 AM

Found these on Amazon  https://www.amazon.com/SUNVIE-Integrated-Fixture-Daylight-electric/dp/B0761N3DDC/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1515337393&sr=1-4-fkmr2&keywords=t5++4%27+3200k

I guess people don't want warm white shop lights.  I would think 6500K would look too industrial for layout lighting.

 

 

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

By the Chesapeake Bay

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 9:51 AM

Are you saying the fixtures would look too industrial, OR the quality of the light?

My concern is the 'brightness' and/or the blueness of the white light,...as I think I understand this new 'spec-ing' of LED lighting??

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, January 07, 2018 9:54 AM

You want 2700 to 3000.  Still like track lighting. 8' length track for $20 and cans for around $5 or less, bulbs for around $1. This was just a fast look at prices, bet I could find cans for way less.

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:19 AM

Were are you finding prices like that,...surely not retail stores??

And what sort of LED bulbs for around $1,....maybe just 800 lumen lamp bulbs??...and i haven't seen them even that cheap.

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Posted by railandsail on Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:29 AM

This is a forum discussion I was trying to go thru to discover some of this new LED technology and terminogly.
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/29429

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Posted by Doughless on Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:45 AM

I think the way you have the conduit mounted might interfere with mounting tube lighting. 

You can put the conduit, or even run the romex uncovered, above the rafters in that little triangular space and then drop it down to wire each light fixture.  Even in habitable space, if the fixture conceals the connection of the supply with the fixture wiring, its within code. 

 

- Douglas

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:49 AM

railandsail

Were are you finding prices like that,...surely not retail stores??

And what sort of LED bulbs for around $1,....maybe just 800 lumen lamp bulbs??...and i haven't seen them even that cheap.

 

8' track, big box store, cans e-bay, look for other brands that are compatable like Edison and look for lots. Bulbs, most anywhere these days, bought mine off e-bay but Cosco has them for less than $2 or less.

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Posted by rrebell on Sunday, January 07, 2018 11:12 AM

One I just found e-bay #322974625460 for 6, comes out to about $5.20 each, out the door, buy it now. If I needed any that would have been gone. You can find even better prices if you try.

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Posted by railandsail on Monday, January 08, 2018 1:10 PM

Hi rreBell,

You just about had me going to take a more serious look at track lighting,...in fact I had just returned from HomeDepot looking.

But I visited another forum where I had posted some info, and found this reference by another gentleman,..

This one you referenced is interesting,....guess I just did not look too deeply in their site.
https://www.amazon.com/Barrina-Integrated-Fixture-Daylight-electric/dp/B01MUKSZE3

 

....4000K (daylight Glow)

 

I'm ordering these today and will do some experimenting. If they should happen to put out too little light for what I was looking for, then I might just string up a row of the bright whites next to them as has been mentioned in this subject thread,...two 'shades of white'

I'm going to run a string of 3 of these 4 foot lights down each side of the shed's ceiling,....just about where the edge of that masonite is up there. I'll likely mount them on some sort of long board that can be tilted over so as to light up the the lower deck and upper deck, and concurrently keep the light from shinning directly into operators eyes standing in the middle of the room. That center light fixture on the fan will likely be removed.

 

(Please excuse the mess in the shed, and other hanging 'shop lights' that were being experimented with)

Brian

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Posted by Pruitt on Monday, January 08, 2018 4:19 PM

You also want to look at the CRI (Color Rendering Index) of the lights you're considering. If it's below the low- to mid-80's colors may not look right, whatever their temperature is.

Best is to have a CRI over 90, but they can be hard to find, and can be pricier as well.

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Posted by rrebell on Monday, January 08, 2018 5:31 PM

4000 is way too off color, had some, they became house bulbs

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Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:44 AM

couple of quotes from MRH forum

I found that light color is an important consideration when selecting LEDs.  I noticed that you selected warm white.  You'll find that the light is much different with other light colors.  I was told when selecting LEDs for the house that light color had a lot to do with the quality and usability of light.

Last Fall I bought a 6 pack of 60 watt equivalent LED bulbs in daylight color on Amazon.  I put two in a ceiling fixture in the family room and found the light to be very bright and harsh.  I took them out and put in bulbs that were of the same rating but in warm white.  Much better for the family room.  I put the daylight color bulbs in my wife's sewing room and she loves that light for sewing.

I changed out the fluorescent bulb over my modeling workbench for a $10 bathroom vanity mirror fixture I bought and Lowes and put three of the 60 watt daylight bulbs in it.  It's much better light for that kind of work.  I certainly wouldn't see nearly as well with warm white bulbs in it.


Now, it is correct that "Daylight" bulbs, meaning something with a color temp up in the 5K-6.5K will look more like what you'd see under natural light. Defined in this case as the color of light from a northern exposure window on a sunny day. But your entire layout doesn't have a northern exposure.


I have been using LED strip lights for several years now and one thing I found is that LED lights often have a narrow color temperature range, especially the bright white lights, so they don't render the full spectrum of colors in the scenery. The scenery appears somewhat monochrome, making it more difficult to see detail, and it even seems to affect depth perception.

My solution for this was to use two LED strips, one warm white, and one bright white.  This solves several problems;

1) I'm using SMD3528 LED strips, high density (120/meter).  At 3 feet above the layout, one LED strip did not provide adequate lighting.  Adding a second strip gave me the brightness that I needed.

2) Having two strips of different temperature range provides a broader color spectrum.




I too am excited by LED technology.  Many years ago I began replacing incandescent bulbs with CFLs and found them to be generally dimmer and with an unpleasant "warm white" yellowish color.  Recently having purchased a new home and desiring LED lighting efficiency, I've found that LEDs from a variety of sources, Home Depot, Walmart and others, that LEDs are actually BRIGHTER than the rated equivalent incandescent light bulbs; AND they have a pleasing "daylight" (somewhat "cool") color balance, very similar to the "cool white" 48" tubes I've liked for layout lighting in the past.  My new home features 100% LED room lighting and I plan on using LED strip lighting for my new layout.  Will have to study Joe F's research to make sure that the "strip" LEDs match the relatively "cool white/daylight" balance of my home improvement center purchased room lighting

 

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Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:46 AM

Hope the illustrations come thru here?

The perceived brightness difference between different light types is really the difference in color temperature. As the higher the color temperature the more vivid the colors of objects appear and maybe more reflected light is entering your eye. Standard incandescent bulbs were down around 3000 degree K, both CFL and LED can come in a range of color temperature, going from warm white to day light to cool white. The problem with names is one manufactures daylight bulb is not the same color temperature as another, so match the color temperature. There is also a color rendering index or CRI, that is how well alternatives render color compared to a reference. From what I read the reference can be either an incandescent bulb or daylight, and so that leads me to believe the the CRI can be different values depending on the reference you are using.

 

So the equivalent wattage LED/CLF bulb probably has a different color temperature than the incandescent bulb you are used to, giving the less or more bright perception.

 

Here a couple references and pictures that maybe of help, should you wish to know more.

 

from: https://www.lumens.com/how-tos-and-advice/kelvin-color-temperature.htmlKelvin Color Temperature Scale

 

from: https://www.ephotozine.com/article/guide-to-colour-temperature-4804

Photograph lighting technique

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Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:58 AM

...verses track type lighting

Originally I was going to have 60W and 100W equivelant LED light bulb's every two feet, but have found it creates the Cornfield effect with the lighting, so now I am going with LEDMO LED Strips (6500K strip, 3000K strip, and a RGB strip that is dimable so I can go from daylight wihite  to nightime blue during an op sessoin.  How I transition I'm still not certain, but that is the plan at least.

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Posted by railandsail on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:10 AM

But I'd prefer a lower color temp-  300, 3500 max.   You can get 4000K Edison (screw-in) base bulbs and compare... I find them uncomfortably Blue... but I acknowledge it can be a personal bias.



I’m so far behind the times when it comes to lighting that I still use bulbs. I like my light real warm. Based upon info I picked up on this forum I experimented with Cree 2700 warm light led bulbs and I am so happy with the color rendition. An old school approach for sure but suits my eyes and looks good in photos.



And I'm like you... 2700K,  but will accept higher.   4000 is where I can't stands it anymore!


My last (linear) layout was lit by LED tubes and thin long fixtures hanging from chains (8-ft ceiling). The light put out (5000K) was nice and bright, but was irritating due to no valence. I sometimes wore a baseball hat when running trains just to keep it out of my eyes



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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:28 AM

I think we have a mis comunication here. I recomended track lighting because you can put the lights as close together as you want (mine were every 15") and you can swivel them to fix any shadows. The color I suggested is not the best for the construction phash but will do, but for the final results. Always think of the final results. When I was doing benchwork I accually used dual 100 watt cfl's in a central fixture. Since track lighting can be sliced and diced you can put light anywhere. Oh and no valance needed.

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Posted by rrebell on Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:37 AM

Also of note around 2700 is majic hour, if you know photography

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Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:43 AM

rrebell

I think we have a mis comunication here. I recomended track lighting because you can put the lights as close together as you want (mine were every 15") and you can swivel them to fix any shadows. The color I suggested is not the best for the construction phash but will do, but for the final results. 

Since track lighting can be sliced and diced you can put light anywhere. Oh and no valance needed.

 

Agreed there.

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Posted by railandsail on Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:44 AM

 

Here is hoping that my choice of 4000K lites over the 6500K ones was correct?

 

I was just rereading this subject thread and ran into this quote,...

 

I just changed my LED room lighting

I have LED room lights in my office/layout space.

When I first built the space, I put in 10W bulb style LED's from China. They were 2800-3000K, and 900 lumins.  They gave the room a very warm feel but their CRI was horrible.

It's been nearly 3 years since I installed them and LED's are far less expensive in the local stores and more options are on the shelves now. So, I tried the 2700k and 5000k 1600 lumen lights my local place had and I didn't like either of them. They were too bright and the 2700k was far far too orange, and the 5000k was very harsh, but the CRI was good.

Michael Roses LED system (still on sale btw) recommends 4500K.

So I went in search of 4000k bulb style lights. Seems these are tough to find in North America. None of the sores close to me carry anything in the 4000k range in a bulb style. Home depot, Rona, Canadian Tire, Menards. Nobody.

On Amazon I found 4000k Dimmable and non Dimmable 1100 Lumen LEDS. I bought enough of them to do my entire office and have a few spares on had. Kunshi Unify 2-pack LED 10w (75w) 1100 Lumen A19 Standard Light Bulb 4000k Bright White  (currently only non-dimmable available) and I am very happy with them. The CRI is acceptable to me and the colour is not harsh. They throw plenty of light and look great. Photos and video turn out well.

For my layout lighting I have tuned the colour to around 4000K too. It's just right for me.

- Bill

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