I am in the process of expanding my current layout by creating a yard. My exisitng layout is L girder with 1/2" plywood, WS foam roadbed and a mix of Atlas and Peco Code 100 flex-track using Loctite Polyseamseal adhesive caulk. The expansion area, due to a number of construction constraints, is primarily box-frame with 1/2" plywood, 5/32" cork roadbed, all ME code 83 flex-track and turnouts and ditto on the caulk. Unfortunately, I went the cork route in the new yard area as I wanted a lower ballast profile in the yard than the WS roadbed gives for main line track. Now the existing 6 year old layout has always been completely satisfactory from a running noise standpoint. So far, in running a couple of locos to test the new expansion sections of track, turnouts and curves I have laid I have found the running locos really really noisy. Since I laid all of the roadbed and a significant length of track before noticing the noisy operation ripping out and starting over is not exactly an option.
My question here; is there anything I can do to deaden the sound once I am this far along? e.g. - will the addition of scenery and ballast absorb unwanted noise? Adding additional support members / struts under the plywood? Attaching non scenic foam strips / sheets under the plywood? Any kind of special sound isolation foam? etc.
Well Friend, the only thing I could suggest would be to hang cloth material from the bottom of the layout supports to absorb sound waves.
Would anyone have any comparity experience with this type of caulking??
Dave
mrnimblewill the addition of scenery and ballast absorb unwanted noise?
Most likely yes. The original section is scenicked and the new is not? That's going to make a lot of difference. Scenery generally muffles and suppresses sound.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I reserve the right to reply to this thread once the ballast dries on the SIW and operations resume.
Joe Staten Island West
Stick some sound absorbing mat (like they use for car audio installs - there are cheap knockoffs of the Dynamat brand which is expensive) in some of the empty box sections (ones that don;t have switch machines, if you use under-table switch motors). Against the bottom of the plywood. That will dampen the sound.
Scenery on top will help - anything with some stiffness anyway - just paint and ground foam won't do a whole lot. The idea is to change the resonating characteristics of the boxed plywood sections.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
IMO, there is a noticeable increase in noise once the ballast is glued to the plywood, whereas leaving it lay unglued is more quiet.
As I consider how I'm going to build my next layout, I have heard good results from placing waxed paper on the plywood next to the roadbed and spreading ballast and gluing it whilst on the waxed paper. Then, since water and glue wont stick to the paper, pull the paper out after its hardened. If successful, you shouldn't have a direct connection between the track and the benchwork, which should minimixe the vibration caused by the trains. (I also wonder if you could just leave the waxed paper in place underneath the hardened ballast)
- Douglas
I have personally found the quietest way to lay track is on top of cork with nails to hold it down. The ballast should NOT be glued down.Something about fixing the track in place causes more of the sound to be transferred back up as the train runs over it. And if you think about it, it makes sense. In professional home theater installs, all the walls are floating (use RSIC clips or Green Glue over drywall). This means they aren't load bearing, and they aren't hard connected to a floor or ceiling. This allows them to absorb sound instead of acting like a reflecting surface.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin I have personally found the quietest way to lay track is on top of cork with nails to hold it down. The ballast should NOT be glued down.Something about fixing the track in place causes more of the sound to be transferred back up as the train runs over it. And if you think about it, it makes sense.
I have personally found the quietest way to lay track is on top of cork with nails to hold it down. The ballast should NOT be glued down.Something about fixing the track in place causes more of the sound to be transferred back up as the train runs over it. And if you think about it, it makes sense.
Interesting. Most everyone these days seem to glue their cork or roadbed material down as well as the track.
In my case, originally learned how to lay cork and track by nailing it and it works well for me. I have put some ballast down on one section of my layout but it hasn't been fixed in place with glue yet. Interestingly, I have run trains a number of time and they are very quiet - hardly any sound.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761In my case, originally learned how to lay cork and track by nailing it and it works well for me. I have put some ballast down on one section of my layout but it hasn't been fixed in place with glue yet. Interestingly, I have run trains a number of time and they are very quiet - hardly any sound.
Mike
Doughless IMO, there is a noticeable increase in noise once the ballast is glued to the plywood, whereas leaving it lay unglued is more quiet.
My layout sits on 1/2" plywood with a foam (Woodland Scenics) roadbed. I have sections of unballasted track, sections of ballasted track but not glued, and sections of glued and ballasted track. The unballasted track is the quietest.
BTW, I use matte medium because the LHS guys told me that it is quieter than white glue.
Rich
Alton Junction
Did you notice if Matte medium is truly quieter than white glue for ballast adhesive.
I suppose if one left ballast unglued, real stone ballast would be better than WS crushed nut shell type ballast, as far as staying put.
riogrande5761 Did you notice if Matte medium is truly quieter than white glue for ballast adhesive.
mrnimble
The short answer is "No, you can't add anything to the layout to effectively reduce the noise from the trains." Adding absorption, as some have suggested, will only reduce reverberation levels near the absorbing surfaces. The direct sound will not change, only how long it reverberates in the space. If you want to duplicate the sound level of the previous layout construction, the only thing you can do is rebuild the new section using similar construction methods and similar quality materials. As soon as the construction method/quality changes, you will get different acoustical results.
However, I have always noticed that prototype trains make one heck of a racket as they pass. As a professional acoustical engineer, I have had numerous opportunities to measure sound and vibration of trains. I find it amazing that a flat-spotted wheel on a freight car often produces higher noise levels than the locomotives. Add brake and flange squealing, various moans and groans of the car chassis and suspensions, plus miscellaneous impact noises from loose doors, panels and loads and you get trains that makes a lot of noise. To expect our model trains to whisper around our layouts is not very prototypical.
Hornblower
Hello all,
Check out this thread:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258968.aspx
I too run WS Foam road bed for the trackage.
The combination I discussed in the previous thread has been holding strong and yet flexible enough to withstand slight movements in the benchwork.
Hope this helps.
UPDATE:
This combination of glue and natural ballast on a foam base also reduces the noise.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I've noticed a huge difference in sound using scenic cement vs white glue. White glue was extremely noisy. The track sections with ballast secured by scenic cement was dramatically quieter (in both instances cork glued to1/2" subroadbed with white glue; track secured to cork with caulk). have not tried matte medium but will be testing that when I start ballasting new layout this fall. BTW, last layout used WS ballast (from what I understand it's crushed acorns), this one will use AZ Rock & Mineral ballast (Real rock). Anyone noticed a sound difference based on ballast type?
mrnimble I am in the process of expanding my current layout by creating a yard. My exisitng layout is L girder with 1/2" plywood, WS foam roadbed and a mix of Atlas and Peco Code 100 flex-track using Loctite Polyseamseal adhesive caulk. The expansion area, due to a number of construction constraints, is primarily box-frame with 1/2" plywood, 5/32" cork roadbed, all ME code 83 flex-track and turnouts and ditto on the caulk. Unfortunately, I went the cork route in the new yard area as I wanted a lower ballast profile in the yard than the WS roadbed gives for main line track. Now the existing 6 year old layout has always been completely satisfactory from a running noise standpoint. So far, in running a couple of locos to test the new expansion sections of track, turnouts and curves I have laid I have found the running locos really really noisy. Since I laid all of the roadbed and a significant length of track before noticing the noisy operation ripping out and starting over is not exactly an option. My question here; is there anything I can do to deaden the sound once I am this far along? e.g. - will the addition of scenery and ballast absorb unwanted noise? Adding additional support members / struts under the plywood? Attaching non scenic foam strips / sheets under the plywood? Any kind of special sound isolation foam? etc.
some of the members of the modular club i belonged to had a similar problem one just screwed 1by2's to the bottom of his and it seemed to quiet it some (took noise level down to bearable) the other got several cans of that expanding foam and sprayed the bottom it made the noise level almost nonexistent.
DEADEN the SOUND!
Are you gray-zee...
Them gusy spend fortunes putting sound in their locomotives, and LION gets the rumble of the subway for FREE!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
j. c.some of the members of the modular club i belonged to had a similar problem one just screwed 1by2's to the bottom of his and it seemed to quiet it some (took noise level down to bearable) the other got several cans of that expanding foam and sprayed the bottom it made the noise level almost nonexistent.
Please note that both of these "fixes" reduced the sound by adding rigidity and/or vibration dampening to the plywood roadbed. Expanding foam insulation is not an effective sound absorber as its surface cures too hard. However, it will maintain some level of resilience that can help dampen sound vibrations in the plywood panel to which it is applied but at the cost of filling the space you planned to use to host wiring, switch machines, light fixtures, etc. On the other hand, it could be used for both sound dampening and scenery by applying it to the top of the plywood and carving it into hills and mountains, assuming your layout could use a few mountains.
Materials that are thick, soft and fluffly (like open batt fiberglass insulation) make the best sound absorbers but are actually poor sound barriers. Note that absorptive materials affect only the amount of reverberation within the treated space. Absorptive materials have no effect on the direct sound level coming off the rails. Also note that adding lots of absorption materials will not only abosorb the sound you don't want to hear, but will also suck up the sound you do want to hear. Not an effective fix!
Thanks, everyone, for your consideration and responses. I believe at the moment I am going to complete my layout expansion as planned, including backdrop, scenery elements and fascia and then evaluate the sound problem, if any, at that time. I've done some searches which has led me to a number of sound "absorbtion" products which are advertised to solve the kind of noise problem I am experiencing (i.e. - vibration amplified by a large flat surface area). Should be a couple of months but I will make a point to report my findings and solutions back to this thread. Thanks again, Geoff
Drumguy I've noticed a huge difference in sound using scenic cement vs white glue. White glue was extremely noisy. The track sections with ballast secured by scenic cement was dramatically quieter (in both instances cork glued to1/2" subroadbed with white glue;
I've noticed a huge difference in sound using scenic cement vs white glue. White glue was extremely noisy. The track sections with ballast secured by scenic cement was dramatically quieter (in both instances cork glued to1/2" subroadbed with white glue;
Is that scenic cement a brand? Where did you buy it?
Of all the things to be concerned with in building a layout track noise was never a concern of mine. In everything else we talk about being prototype and realistic but then want to eliminate or diminish the sound of cars rolling along the track. Ever stand near a full scale train as it passes by? The sound there is deafening and the ground rumbles as well. I think one would have to do something miraculos to produce it on a model railroad. Go ahead and try all your sound dampening ideas but I personally enjoy the sound of my trains running. (HO scale on Happy Foam roadbed, ballasted with matte medium on top of 1/2" hardwood plywood)
riogrande5761 Drumguy I've noticed a huge difference in sound using scenic cement vs white glue. White glue was extremely noisy. The track sections with ballast secured by scenic cement was dramatically quieter (in both instances cork glued to1/2" subroadbed with white glue; Is that scenic cement a brand? Where did you buy it?
I believe He's talking about Woodland scenic cement:
https://www.walthers.com/scenic-cement-tm-16oz-473ml
It's bascically Matte Medium. I use it all the time..main reason is..I have a lot of it.
I dilute mine with 91% Isopropyl alcohol though, found that it dries much quicker and eliminates the bubbles and the floating action of the ballast that water with dish detergent produces. I also do not have all this noise that people complain about. Layout is 1/2 ply with 1/2 Homosote for roadbed. The only thing I do not like..is the noise that My 10 car all-metal wheel passenger cars make...the majority of all My rolling stock have Delrin wheels....but needed the metal wheels for power pick-up.I really do not care for the noise all metal wheels make. As far as clickty clack goes, you still hear it...it's just not so pronounced.
Take Care!
Frank
Interesting debates. My 2 cents:
- One should not neglect the source of the noise, i.e., the locos. Changing motors, gears and u-joints can do wonders.
-I don't like noise, including from 1:1 scale!
Simon
I don't thiink that any sounds coming from model train layouts sound like the real thing, with the exception of a good onboard bell, whistle, or horn. I prefer to eliminate all noise so I can hear those better.
Is it akin to heresy if I say that I wish I could replace my scale metal wheels found on highly detailed cars with plastic wheels? I can't even find 36 inch plastic wheels for hopper and tank cars.
Yup, I was referring to woodlands Scenics scenic cement, which-- as was mentioned-- I think is just expensive matte medim without all the diluuting fuss. I have all metal wheels on everything, and still the ballast secured with scenic cement is much quieter than diluted white glue. Two additional notes: a few folks have said the additional nose is like a noisy Real train. I disagree. A 1:1 noise is all engine and rail, not electric motor amplified (overiding the sound of the loco's speaker). And 2, a few comments mention more ridged substrates minimize sound. I'm not an acoustics expert, but there are many instances where the opposite is true: tune a drumhead to a very slack tension (loose) it takes a lot of force to produce an appreciable sound. crank up the tension (more rigid) and a moderate hit can tear your head off. On the other hand, put a band on a flimsy modular stage, the resonances will make everything suck. On a firm stage, it absorbs the sound. Go figure. :) Not wanting to start an acoustics firestorm here, just pointing out that it's not a simple answer.
Modular stages suck because they are built for light weight to make them portable.Real stages that are secure together as a solid unit mass absorb more sound.There's two different things you are referring to: Sound absorbtion versus sound proofing.http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/blog/soundproofing/sound-proofing-vs-sound-absorbing-the-difference-between-blocking-and-absorbing/
Like a surface of a drum, if you have a free wall that is relatively low in mass it can transmitting in nature. This applies to plywood, drywall, or drums, or modular stages. If your track is securly attached to plywood and it has a free surface underneath it, it will act like a surface or a drum and radiant sound.You can stick cotton/polyester batting underneath your layout in the crevices to dampen out sound radiating from UNDER the plywood. This is sound absorbtion.If you leave the track roadbed loose from the plywood, this is decoupling. This helps prevent the sound from transmitting between the roadbed and plywood wall.In home theater, what they use is something called green glue.
http://www.greengluecompany.com/products/noiseproofing-compound
It is a foaming adhesive designed to dampen vibrations of free spaces. It is stuck between layers of drywall. You might be able to use this between the roadbed and the plywood to help decouple yet secure the track.
I'm not an acoustics expert, I'm a drummer who also likes model railroads. I just bang on stuff as loudly as I can until something breaks haha! (Sadly, something does usually break...). But thanks DigitalGriffin-- that's an excellent explanation of what happens with our track/roadbed/sub roadbed. Resonance and dampening (damping?) are strange beasts indeed-- two sides of the same coin that may not interact together the way we expect. But the white glue vs. sScenic Cement is a very real difference in my experience. Could it be the Scenc Cement --- having different drying characteristic than the white glue---has some sort of mild decoupling effect? Food for thought, and maybe worth some experimentation to some on this forum.
And modular stages also suck because if some wonk doesn't secure the sections properly, they can separate under the drum riser causing a very unfortunate Spinal Tap-esque moment. Been there, lets just leave it alone...
Fairly an easy fix!
Go to one o the big box home improvement stores, buy yourself some rolls of fiberglass insulation and a hand held staple gun unless you have an air powered staple gun.
Put the insulation under the layout and staple in place.
You don't have to use a lot of staples.
This way if you want to rewire something under the layout, you can unstaple some and restaple it in place.
The insulation will abosorb a lot of noise!
It's not only an easy fix, it won't cost you much either.
The addition of scenery will also help
How do I know this works?
I did it on mine.
I have two inch thick blue foam base laying in a wood bed lattice setup.
Stapled fiberglass insulation in place, and it got rid of a lot of sound reverbration.
Cheap and easy to do!
If that's not enough, get some cheap ceiling tiles and tack them in place over the insulation.
You don't have to tear up your layout and start over.
Ok ballast is done on the SIW took longer than I thought including a number of pases with the vacuum and my fingers picking out excess. (As an aside the real rock product is a bit better to work with than Woodland Scenics Walnut Shells.)
No question ballasted track is noisier than unballasted track but still quieter than ez track so I will live with it.
joe323 Ok ballast is done on the SIW took longer than I thought including a number of pases with the vacuum and my fingers picking out excess. (As an aside the real rock product is a bit better to work with than Woodland Scenics Walnut Shells.) No question ballasted track is noisier than unballasted track but still quieter than ez track so I will live with it.
My last layout was cork on blue foam or W/S foam risers for most of its length. There was a section that was cork on plywood. The noisy section was the cork on plywood, but it was not too bad due to the blue foam glued (liquid nails) to the plywood, which I beleive reduced the ability for the plywood to reverberate.
Liquid nails was used to attach the track throughout, with the exeception of a staging yard where track nails were used. Not a lot of trains were run in the staging yard, but it was noisy as well. Benchwork was a series of box frames bolted together.
I had a few short sections ballasted in tunnels. You could hear a noise difference (not really better or worse). The cork on plywood section transitioned to cork on risers. You could tell exactlly when the locomotive started climbing the grade. Cork on white styrfoam or blue foam board was relatively quiet. Again, all track was affixed with liquid nails. My next layout will be all handlaid on homasote roadbed with plywood under the yard areas and MDF splines.