Has anyone here blended a clear-ish resin stream (with bottom detail showing through) into a Modge Podge or Acrylic Gloss deeper water? Is it possible or must I use one or the other?
The vision is a wide stream with bottom detail (rocks, tires, etc.) flowing down into a narrow gorge emptying into a river port where there will be tugs and barges, etc.
The idea being that deeper water can't be seen through (usually) to the bottom.
If anyone has done this and has pics showing where/how these two mediums meet, that would be very helpful and appreciated. My plaster "bottom" is in...
Thanks, Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Hey Jim:
Interesting question. I'm planning on a river descending into a bay so I will be watching the responses to your query.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I would think that that as long as the deep water had cured completely, a different medium should be alright. Just remember that deep water doesn't have to be deep, only painted to look that way.
Just out of curiosity, how come you are using two types of water products?
Good luck,
Richard
Dave, it's an honor to be in the "waiting room" with you. I've admired your modleing for a long time.
Richard, I haven't made any decisions yet. Modge Podge is winning due to the fact that my train room has no windows and my wife and I are both chemically sensitive to resins. If I used one it'll likely be Magic Water.
IF I can see bottom detail like rocks and sunken branches, tires, etc. Modge Podge/ Gloss Medium is my lst choice. Maybe by using NO tinting color?
I basically was interested in exploring whether both mediums could "meet" successfully from a visual standpoint or if the more opaque, thicker Modge Podge would look ok coming from a crystal clear stream.
Joining the two mediums isn't too important physically/chemically as the resin steam would empty into the bay via either a small falls or a wall with a drain pipe.
Hope that clarifies things some... I've never seen this done,wondering if anyone else has.
Edit: Oh yeah, the main reason I'm leaning towards Modge Podge is that the narrow gulley leading down to the river is only about 1.5" wide, pretty deep maybe an inch and at a steep angle. So, with resin, I'd have to do some damming along that slope.
I just don't know if I''d regret not having some 3D bottom effect going. The stream is on plaster base, the river port/bay could be on painted ply OR plaster to tie it in with the stream... It's my lst water feature ever. wp8thsub's pics have been my mental model but they're not (I believe) over a plaster base.
Thanks
Jim
Capt. GrimekDave, it's an honor to be in the "waiting room" with you. I've admired your modleing for a long time.
Aw shucks! Now I'm blushing. Thanks for the kind words!
I think the illusion of shallow to deep water is how you prepare, and paint the bottom. I've never worked with Modge Podge, but it also dries clear, as does the resin.
I don't have any good examples, as my water features are shallow streams, but I think you know what I'm talking about.
Mike.
My You Tube
I agree with Mike. What seems to matter the most is how the bottom is painted. Doctorwayne's water scenes are a prime example. There is no actual depth. They are just plaster for texture, paint, clearcoat, and some stipling to represent waves where appropriate (not sure what he uses for the clearcoat or the waves. Maybe he will chime in).
hon30critter I agree with Mike. What seems to matter the most is how the bottom is painted. Dave
I agree with Mike. What seems to matter the most is how the bottom is painted.
I agree. Following some acrylic paint methods from Rob Spangler, I painted my river bottom darker shades in the middle to give the visual impression of depth, and lighter, and tan shades near the shore for shallow appearance. The first photo us the river bottom which is simply drywall mud covered over luan and sanded smooth. The next two photo's show the acrylics applied before water effects using gloss Mod Podge:
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Looking nice R.G.! I'm going to use similar coloring as my stream to river bay will be Pacific N.W. glacier fed. I understand the painting aspect of preparing the bottom for depth, etc. Just haven't seen the glossy resin meets the murkier Modge Podge look anywhere in print or on tours yet. I guess the ever famous practice board/diorama is going to be in order if nothing turns up in the next couple of weeks.
I've read and re-read Dr. Wayne's "tutorial" many times. It's a fantastic look, but not a material I can use in the windowless room and with my wife's sensitivities. I've visited and operated on Rob Spangler's layout this past summer and I'm leaning towards his method. He had a variety of Modge Podge coloring and effects that were really nicely done and certainly inspirtational. I'll have to experiment with a slightly clearer-3D bottom look (maybe sand on the bottom plaster instead of only painting) etc. with that material to see if it'll do.
Enjoying everyones' pics. This is one job I'd really love to only do once! ;-)
Thanks!
Oh, I meant to ask, R.G. When do you think you'll be doing your Modge Podge coatings? Please continue to post pics of your progress!
I'm not sure that I can add too much to the conversation, as I've not used Modge Podge. I have, quite a few years ago, used a clear casting resin for water, but it was extremely stinky. At that time, I didn't really plan out the water feature (it was part of a diorama than was intended for photography), and while it look "watery" enough, the smell precluded ever using that particular material again.
Capt. Grimek...I've read and re-read Dr. Wayne's "tutorial" many times. It's a fantastic look, but not a material I can use in the windowless room and with my wife's sensitivities....
The clear coat on my Durabond water is a water-based, high gloss urethane from Varathane, called Diamond Wood Finish for interior surfaces.While it does have some odour, I'd liken it to that of latex house paint, and the label claims it to be "virtually odourless". Its advantages are the low odour, the hardness of the dried surface, and the fact that it doesn't alter the colours on which it's applied, and doesn't yellow with age. My layout room is also windowless and my wife's sensitive olfactory nerves were apparently unaffected, as there was no bellowing about "What kinda chemicals are you playing with now?!!!" It appears white when applied, but clears as it dries. It's dry to the touch in one hour, and can be re-coated after four hours. They recommend three coats, and the exercise of some caution with the surface for about a week, until it's fully cured.Once cured, the surface is very tough, and my rivers have supported many cameras over the years they've been on the layout, with no evidence of chips or scratches. I wipe the surfaces occasionally when dust accumulates (mostly when I was adding a second level of the layout over the area where most of the water features are located).I used a 2" brush to apply the three coats, cleaning the brush with water between uses. It's suggested that the user "apply liberally and avoid over-brushing" and the brush marks do disappear on their own. There are intentional brush marks in a couple of my rivers, but they were done in the Durabond, before it set, to suggest motion.I bought a quart of the clear finish, but the level in the can barely went down at all after covering four areas of "water". I think that this finish should be available in smaller quantities, and suggest that you look for a half-pint. This will be considerably cheaper, and will allow you to determine if the odour is acceptable or not. In fact, you may be able to have the can opened in the store to determine if the odour will be an issue. If your proposed water area is not overly large, and the odour not an issue, that may be all that you require to complete the job.
After the Durabond was applied and the surface more-or-less levelled, I used a drywall knife and a damp sponge to "tease" the surface up into ripples, swells, and waves. This was an on-going process, as the setting time stated on the Durabond packaging is somewhat dependent on the consistency of the mix, and I was worried that it would set rapidly once the process began, with not enough time to create the various effects I wanted. This, fortunately, wasn't the case, but it would have been had I attempted to do all water areas at the same time.
Due to its self levelling properties, the clear finish is not suitable to use for imparting three dimensional detail.Paint determines the depth of the water and its quality (clean, muddy, polluted, etc.). For shallow, moving water, I used white acrylic paint (Pollyscale), applied with a 1/2" brush, to the "teased-up" rapids, and the small "breakers" on the inlet of Lake Erie.
I don't think that this method is suited to all types of water scenes, but it is a fairly low-cost and easy-to-do option.
Wayne
Jim, Was faced with a similar dilemma where my resin poured industrial canal met with the plexiglass harbor. Gave the last half of the canal a holding pond look and modeled a small dam of sorts with an MOV controlled outfall.
Happy modeling, Regards, Peter
Peter, thanks!!! That's exactly what I'm considering. I wish I had better powers of visualization. Seeing your pic definitely gives me a very useful tool for holding up and propping up around my scene in progress!
Dr. Wayne, thank you. Your wife quoteth my wife almost verbatim! The only difference is that I quoteth similarly :-) Too much time spent with paint crews in the confines of ship propellor alleys at the shipyard years ago.
I'll dig in on your post a little deeper after I get back home. Some snow needs to be dealt with at present... I love your method. It looks fantastic as always!
Edit: Velo, I see you're in CA. Are you by any chance attending the BayRails Ops Weekend mid -month? If so, I we might get put names to faces...
At any rate, if you have a few more pics of this area from the opposite angle, etc. I'd love to see more as I'm sure others would also.
Cheers, Jim
Velo, I found some older/archived pics (along with Rob Spangler's) with lots more views of your scene. I didn't realise that your bay was on plexi-glass. Nice work!
Capt. Grimek Oh, I meant to ask, R.G. When do you think you'll be doing your Modge Podge coatings? Please continue to post pics of your progress! Jim
I would enjoy visiting Rob Spanglers layout, especially since his time period and trains mesh up very closely with my own late 1970's Rio Grande interests; as many may know, the RG passed off trains to the WP and visa versa, in Utah.
Anyway, I really like the look of Robs scenery and rivers and decided to follow his methods as closely as possible - inlcuding the river bottom painting and the user of gloss Mod Podge. I posted photo's after the Mod Podge dried here in a topic a couple months ago; I'll try to find them and repost when I get the chance.
Edit: found them - reposting:
Applied Mod Podge in thick blobs and blended together and poked with a brush to give a wavey surface.
After 48 hours of drying the Mod Podge started loosing the milky color and becomes transparent. As some have reported, I got some bubbles, especially under the thicker parts.
My guess is the rougher parts of the surface where the acrylics were blended by blotting with a brush acted as nucleation sites where bubbles formed. Still, this is my first simulated water I've ever done so I'm generally pleased.
Overall it came out good, although there are small bubbles which give a slightly cloudy appearance - I believe this is due to the rough surface that was there before the Mod Podge. Next time I try this, I may spray a gloss clear coat on before applying the Mod Podge as I think the rough surface acted as nucleation sites for bubbles to form. Robs water didn't get the cloudy appearnce from bubbles so I'm guessing his river bottom wasn't as rough.
riogrande5761...Overall it came out good....
I agree, and if there are bubbles, they certainly don't detract from the way it looks. I may try it atop my Durabond/paint/clear urethane water when I get around to doing the Speed River, which will represent a shallower river than the others that I have on the layout. I want it to look like moving water, but not as rapids:
Thanks for reposting those pics R.G. and Dr. Wayne. I'm planning on some submerged rocks and branches. I'm wondering how much that'll encourage bubbles? It appears from your pics that everyting would be visible (within reason) beneath the Modge Podge. Starting to get excited about this project!
Jim,
Capt. Grimeksnow
Thanks for the compliments. Perhaps more interesting would be if I'd made the water level in the canal higher than the harbor with an outfall pipe gushing water. Hmm, maybe I should have left access at the holding pond for a vaccum truck.
Thanks for the heads up about BayRails Ops., very interesting, but busy that weekend.
Riogrande5761, Nice river. I test applied Modpodge and Liquitex gloss medium to very smooth surfaces, (cured Envirotex Lite and plexi-glass) and experinced the tiny bubble cloudiness with both mediums. Did read that cloudiness can also happen when applying during humid conditions.
Regards, Peter
Peter, those scenes look great....as in I had to look more than once to be sure it wasn't the real thing!!
HO-Velo Riogrande5761, Nice river. I test applied Modpodge and Liquitex gloss medium to very smooth surfaces, (cured Envirotex Lite and plexi-glass) and experinced the tiny bubble cloudiness with both mediums. Did read that cloudiness can also happen when applying during humid conditions. Regards, Peter
Peter, nice looking water there.
I applied the Mod Podge when the humidity was at or below 50% last fall. I have a dehumidifier in the basement set at 50% humidity and it only seems to run from around May/Jun through Sept or so. Something to consider. It sounds like my applying it to a smooth surface may not mitigate the tiny bubbles; Rob reports he didn't have bubbles in his and I tried to copy his technique. He does live in eastern Utah where I would expect the humidity to be low desert like conditions.
doctorwayne Peter, those scenes look great....as in I had to look more than once to be sure it wasn't the real thing!! Wayne
Hey Peter,
I agree.
Another question. Is that choppy water at the dam a solid sheet of plexiglas? Like a shower door or something?
Also, any photos of work in progress? The final results are great, but I'd like to see what to look for along the way before things set up. Bare naked plywood, painting the bottom, subtle shifting of color shade and hue on the bottom, applying first glop of resin, second glop, how long to wait before texturing the surface, wave effects, ripples and eddies, etc etc etc
I have three distinct water areas in my new layout build, and I'm a little worried how things will turn out. Not afraid to try, just a little nervous about what to do once I start.
Thanks. This thread is kinda inspirational.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Peter, thanks so much for the additional angles/views. It's rare that I find an almost duplicate scene of a specific idea that's "unusual" so easily and so expertly done. Your scene is a true "stunner!" You've given me everything I need to decide how I'm going to execute my own now. It may end up all Modge Podged but the combo of mediums is very tempting on a smaller layout where I'm always leaning towards squeezing several different techniques in when I can.
Jim, You're most welcome & thanks for the kind words. My intention is not to step on your thread.
Doctorwayne, Thanks a bunch!
Riogrande5761, Thanks. I recall Rob mentioning that a possible formula change might be why he didn't experience bubbling induced cloudiness with his Modpodge water effects. I experienced the bubbling with both the Modpodge and gloss medium there was less with the modpodge. While the cloudiness is a non-issue for many, (I would guess especially with added white capping effects), it was a deal breaker for me.
Robert, Thanks. The greenish choppy water is a solid sheet of 1/4" plexiglass with the back side painted atop a plywood base. I borrowed from a talented wargaming modeler a gloss gel water effects method with a learning curve that was fun, but tedious and time consuming. Of course one man's tedium can be another man's joy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vol7P8oHAk4
Again thanks, regards, Peter