I'm working on basic layout and layout room planning and have an electric sevice panel in the way. Code requires a three foot clearance
Avoiding it altogether will mean outside curves and a shorter layout, while passing directly in front of it will make it possible to design for sweeping large radius inside curves. I have decided to pass directly in front of it, while providing some sort of (re)moveable access to the panel. I am aware the code requires 36 inches clearance in the front and 30 inches across.
The plan is to have the panel accessible as the normal state, with the access temporaily blocked only during operation? Has anyone else had to deal with this? I am looking for examples of how others handled this problem.
Edit: To clarify this a bit, The panel will still be able to be opened at all times, but there will be a track or two passing directly in front of it. The track(s) will be far enough out that the door will still be able to be opened even with the track(s) in place.
Thanks
CG
CG,
Were it Me.....I would go ahead and build it with a lift-out section for access to panel. I doubt very seriously, that the ''code police'' will be knocking at Your door.
My 250 amp service panel by no means has that much space around it......just looks like a small door, built in with the rest of the cabinets, in kitchen. In My 36yrs. of living here, never once saw any code police, inspectors. LOL Also in My 74 yrs. some of which was spent working with My Licenced journey man electrician father in law, I never heard of that code space requirement for an electrical service panel.......Not in Ill., anyway!
Take Care!
Frank
Yeah, that code thing. The idea is to allow instant access should something require access to the panel to shut the house down. Probably any provision that would block the access that's obvious may get the inspector on your case. And it is a good idea. But if you're aware of what's needed and got a clear conscience about maintaining the access as you describe, with it not becoming an issue in an emergency, then I'd say follow your conscience here, but don't brag on it
Frank,
So long as you never have work that requires a permit, that may work. But inspectors are conscientious and this is a rule that is now widely recognized and enforced. It is around here. One big reason -- hoarders. They drive fire departments fears here, having to fight a fire in a unexpectedly confined space, even assuming it didn't start in that panel with stuff stacked up against it.
Model railroaders, with a little discretion, can live with this, probably a good idea, too, considering we so often push the limits of safe access anyway. It's like surviving anything else in life, make the odds work in your favor.
You may also find that some contractors may decline to work on stuff they can't access -- and that's about the monimum size for a human being to occupy. I;ve got a water meter under the layout that's needed changing twice so far. The last time was a short guy who turned out to be a big train fan and loved it. The next time, I may not be so lucky and hope I never have to argue with anyone about it despite tempting fate a little, even though I did leave room -- barely.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Remember that the person who will be accessing the panel more than anyone else is you.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I do electrical work around the house quite often. Just today, I replaced a faulty 3-way switch controlling my layout lighting. Whenever I work on anything electrical, I throw the controlling circuit breaker at the service panel.
My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it.
Yeah, that is the correct attitude. I've been busy convincing myself I could get around it with a drop down thingy or swing gate, hence the request for suggestions. I am having second thoughts, though.
I think I'll play around with the helix option and see what I can come up with. Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input.
IF you have easy and ready access to breaker handles with the "layout section" in place, and IF you can provide a "clear working space" (usually 30 x 36) with the "layout section" removed, I do not see a safety hazard.
I would likely do it in my house if I had the same situation.
I am not going to argue whether or not the plan is code-legal.
I have been an electrical contractor for 35 years. And please note that the "if"s were capitalized.
Ed
As an owner of an older commercial property I have been faced with this ordinance. Fortunately the "authorities" only apply this restriction to property constructed after the passing of the code and also for remodels if the space is available. Otherwise, the code doesn't apply.
As others have said you have little to worry about as long as you can access the panel in an emergency.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
7j43kIF you have easy and ready access to breaker handles with the "layout section" in place, and IF you can provide a "clear working space" (usually 30 x 36) with the "layout section" removed, I do not see a safety hazard. Ed
I pretty much agree with Ed here, maybe just a little different way of seeing it.
Keep in mind that the newer codes also require an outside main disconnect. This is right after the meter and outside (in most case, maybe not all, I'm NOT an electrical contractor). This better serves the needs of an emergency, IMO and if easy to get to -- perhaps even easier than a panel in the basement or wherever -- and IMO you've satisfied the need for in case of emergency.
Mike,
I upgraded mostly all the wiring in My house and garage 30yrs. ago to a 250 amp. service, for I had an Arc welder and a 60 gal compressor which worked on 240 AC. My central air condensor is on a separate 40amp circuit with Main shut off, right outside. My whole electric service main breakers for service panel can be shut off outside, right next to com-ed's electric meter before any power even enters the house. When there is a power outage....a light in the kitchen and living room, along with a light in the stairwell will light for upstairs, will run on battery power, until service is restored...lasts for two days. That also can be controlled from outside I have no basement...water table is too high. Com-Ed recommended the main breakers outside when they installed heavier gauge wire from the pole to My house. I did most all the work Myself, with help from My Electrician FIL and saved tons of $$$.
In the OP's case, a simple lift-out section, will work....need light? A simple battery stick-on light near the box will work, one near the stairs also.
No external main disconnect here, and this house was just built last year. My old house had dual panel 400 amp service with two outside disconnects. Same state but different utilities. State runs the electrical code, though, so it should be the same everywhere in the state.
2014 NEC
230.70(A)(1)
Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
That's the national code. Local cities and counties adopt any part or all of it as they choose. Or make additions. And also conform to state requirements. But it pretty much starts with the NEC.
San Francisco used to make up their electrical code all by themselves. Contra Costa county (CA) used to have an exceptions (to the NEC) sheet to hand out.
Local "authorities" COULD require outside service disconnects if they choose. None come to my mind, but I don't get out much. A phone call and sitting on hold for awhile would likely answer for a particular place.
CentralGulf richhotrain My advice, plain and simple, is to never block access to the electrical service panel. In an emergency situation, you want immediate access to the main breaker. That emergency situation may well occur in the dark. Remember, your life could depend upon it. Yeah, that is the correct attitude. I've been busy convincing myself I could get around it with a drop down thingy or swing gate, hence the request for suggestions. I am having second thoughts, though. I think I'll play around with the helix option and see what I can come up with. Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input. CG
This is the common sense and correct advice. The code requirements are there for a reason - to protect you and any first responders. A lesser financial reason is that if the "unthinkable" happened and a fire started, your insurance company could very well deny your claim if there's a willful code violation.
Ray
zstripe.....I would go ahead and build it with a lift-out section for access to panel. I doubt very seriously, that the ''code police'' will be knocking at Your door.
I gotta agree with Frank, although I'd take 'er a step further an' simply drywall right over the dang thing. It'd certainly make 'er a lot easier to paint yer backdrop on it. I mean, heck, t'ain't like it's a 'fridge or nuthin', like ya gotta git into it alla time. If that inspector fella shows up, just tell 'im thatcha gone wireless.
I foresaw a similar problem when I built my house, and opted to put the service panel on the ground floor, along with the water heater....no furnace, either.
The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).Here in Ontario, we have "smart" meters, which allow the service provider to regulate or completely shut off the power at their discretion. In my opinion, if I'm paying for the service, I should be the only one who can pull the plug.
Wayne
doctorwayne I gotta agree with Frank, although I'd take 'er a step further an' simply drywall right over the dang thing. It'd certainly make 'er a lot easier to paint yer backdrop on it. I mean, heck, t'ain't like it's a 'fridge or nuthin', like ya gotta git into it alla time. If that inspector fella shows up, just tell 'im thatcha gone wireless.
Drywall over it. Yeah, that's the ticket. Never thought of that but I will certainly take it under consideration. Wayne, you are the man.
Now, if I can stop laughing, I think it's time to hit the hay.
doctorwayneThe outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).
Good point, but we're fully fenced, so not so much an issue. And a good alarm system has battery backup
mlehman doctorwayne The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems). Good point, but we're fully fenced, so not so much an issue. And a good alarm system has battery backup
doctorwayne The outside shut-off sounds like it would offer lots of possibilities for pranksters (or people wanting to nullify alarm systems).
My two German Boxers love ''pranksters''.......that is, when they are not clowning around. LOL
zstripe
Beside being a model railroader and sympathetic to you situation, for a living I am a firefighter of 23 years, I can honestly say that when we enter people's homes and have to deal with minor electrical issues, fires, water problems etc the home owners never expected to have to deal with their current situation.
The reason I say this is because any lift out section will be left in place, understandably, rather than removed after each run session. Then one day an emergency may occur. Now there will be an issue, the least of your concerns will be possible damage to the layout etc. Basements are a nightmare for firefighters.
i think there is a tendency to think the lift out section will allow for a repairman or yourself to access the panel when needed and there is time to remove the section. No one expects the emergency.
If I could make any suggestion it would be to reconsider how you can accomplish your goals for the layout in another way, leaving access to the panel at all times, you can fudge it a bit but avoid blocking the panel.
I want to add a yard to my layout and I have a perfect area to build it, but it blocks my panel and so it remains unbuilt. I am now considering completely rebuilding my layout to accommodate a larger yard without blocking my panel.
Good luck.
If there is a removable section of layout that obstructs the removal of the front panel cover but does NOT obstruct access to the breakers, I don't see why firefighters would care.
Do firefighters REALLY want to get inside a live electrical panel? That includes exposed busbars?
Notice the capitalization of the word "not".
For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times.
As an officer I do not condone firefighters causing damage when we can take a few minutes to eliminate unnecessary damage in someone's home. However, firefighter's working in a basement filling with smoke I would not expect to worry about damaging a model railroad that should not be blocking a panel in the first place. Then the removed section has to be placed somewhere, without blocking firefighter egress.
We run into far crazier situations than a model railroad blocking access.
Safety is an attitude, not only towards one's self and family, but towards others too. This is an excellent topic that I hope makes one or two think about their train room.
In my 40+ years in the electrical trade, junk, clothes, boxes, and almost anything you can imagine stacked infront of the panel is much worse than a lift out section of railroad. I have been in homes where the owners have built closets with shelves ( a pantry) in front of the panel.
IF you are comfortable with your lift out section, and make sure it is lifted out when you are not running trains, IMHO it sounds good. But check the local codes.
basementdweller For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times.
I guess I'm not quite getting it. The panel cover is held on with screws. Are you saying you have a screwdriver and take out the four to six screws to remove the panel cover so that you can extinguish a fire inside? That seems a little fiddly and time consuming, considering there's a fire inside.
7j43k basementdweller For routine situations certainly shutting down a breaker is not a big deal. But on the other hand fires do occur inside electric panels, for multiple reasons, lightning strikes are common enough, overloads with a breaker failing to trip are another. In such situations the power company deenergizes the service then firefighters will remove the cover to extinguish any fire inside the panel. Done it plenty of times. I guess I'm not quite getting it. The panel cover is held on with screws. Are you saying you have a screwdriver and take out the four to six screws to remove the panel cover so that you can extinguish a fire inside? That seems a little fiddly and time consuming, considering there's a fire inside. Ed
If fire is inside the panel we have to use a screw driver to remove the front cover to gain access. That is the only way there is to do it.
Like already mentioned, we run into all sorts of issues far worse than a model railroad, our simpathy is very limited in such situations where codes are ignored because the homeowner knows What is best.
Clearly the OP has reservations about blocking the panel as he asked the question if it was ok to do so. Odds are all will be fine, but please don't complain about your local fire dept when it isn't.
CG, in your original post you stated that you only intend to have the lift out section in place only when running trains, at all other times it will be removed.
If you adhere to such a policy I would think all would be ok, BUT human nature has a funny way of doing things different especially after years of having no problems.
Thanks to all who responded.
I have decided to completely avoid the electrical panel area by using helixes, which will give me a decent run and predominately inside curves. The downside will be the 1.5% helix grades on a layout that would otherwise be essentially flat. The upside is a longer run and totally walk-in with no duckunders, lift-outs, or swing gates.
Thanks again everyone.
It's a new house. The panel is prewired for and located near a designated spot for a not yet installed BU generator. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable option to move the panel, cost or location-wise.
Before anyone asks, no I didn't have any input on the design or panel location. I bought an existing empty new house designed for someone else who never occupied it.
Unfortunately, the common practice in this area is to locate the panel on the far outside wall of the garage, even if the house has a full basement, not that I have one. It's not any sort of requirement, just what the electricians do.