I'm going to add a distant picnic scene on a hilltop and would like to have a couple of stationary cars nearby. I'm going to run HO on my layout but would like to get the perspective of a distant rail line on a hill side. Distance to the HO tracks would be approximatly 12" - 20" away on this hillside. I don't want it to look like it's too far away but not too close. I'm thinking of N scale on the hill side. Z maybe a little too far in the distance.
Anyone else ever used this perspective before? Suggestions?
Thanks.
I have seen it done often, but rarely is it really convincing because the "distance" is not that great in actual feet and inches and our eyes and mind refuse to be fooled.
The best forced perspective in my experience involved placing the smaller scale structures or scenes where they are not too clearly seen -- over a hill, behind a tree or two so that you are in a sense straining to see it, and perhaps do not see all of it. So just the top of a barn over a hill for example.
And it also featured colors that were more neutral and toned down versus the full scale stuff on the layout. That lent an impression of haze and distance -- again as if you were seeing with some difficulty so your eye and mind could accept the notion that "this is really far away."
And it also seemed to me that the modeler deliberately presented not too much to see in the forced perspective area - just a few things. The more smaller scale stuff there is, the more our eye and mind tend to process that information "correctly" whereas what you want is for it to be processed incorrectly.
Dave Nelson
I use four N scale houses about 3/4 of the ways up a three foot mountain. The houses are about 7 feet from the front of the layout and 2 feet or so from a town at the base of the mountain. All four are lighted and the scene works for me.
I think a picnic scene would need too much detail to suggest distance. Forced perspetive works when the objects are more difficult to see. You are creating an illusion of distance so the details need to be a little "fuzzy" to the eye.
I plan to build a part of a town at the rear of my HO yayout using N Scale structures. The comments are well made and I will plan on using subdued colors, with plenty of trees blocking part of the view.
The trick is to raise the smaller-scale scene above the base level of the HO scale scenery. Art Hill did that - including an N scale mine and rails in his HO Yosemite Falls scene to increase the apparent height.
In my own work I have two places where, to increase the depth of a couple of valleys, I intend to use TT, N and Z scale buildings, stepped up in level (and down in detail,) the farther ones more heavily oversprayed with 'humidity blue-grey.' Adjacent foliage will be detailed and sprayed to match.
Here in the dessicated desert a fully-detailed N scale picnic on an HO layout would be normal for the area. A keen eye can pick out boulders on a mountain 15 miles away. In humid Central Japan, that mountain would just be a slightly deeper grey against an almost-white sky.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There was an MR article apx. 8 years ago where the N Scale tracks were in a continuous run on a very large HO Scale layout. The N tracks were also "buried visually" in the middle of a quite large visible HO yard. The N Scale was higher than the HO Scale layout, let alone in the distance, and even included N Scale bridges, etc.
Did I mention this was a very large (not just large) HO layout?
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
HO scale, with N scale livestock in the distance:
I think that it looks better in a low-level shot, but can't seem to locate the one which I have in mind.
Wayne
I think the trick to forced perspective scenes is, as many have suggested, is to do them in a manner that does not draw attention to them. The viewer will see them but they will not be the focal point.
I have built a few N scale structures that will be used in the background of an HO city scene. They will be painted in subtle colours and the window lighting will not be as intense as in the foreground buildings. One thing I did to try and make the buildings blend in better is I took out the original window mullions and replaced them with a simple horizontal strip of styrene. That made the windows look closer to HO scale, and it made the buildings look a bit more modern. In my case it was only necessary to model the upper stories because the lower floors will be hidden behind foreground structures:
These were constructed using Walthers N scale Modulars building kits. They are cut on odd angles because they will be fitted into a corner.
As far as an N scale picinic scene goes, what details are needed? Two figures sitting on the ground with a small square of red material underneath them, and a tiny beige (wood coloured) box between them. Says 'picnic' pretty clearly to me! You might have to kitbash the figures to get the right positions. That's not hard to do unless you are really squeamish.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Great idea about the forced perspective. I also want to do a trestle bridge on the hillside as well. Sort of like an abandoned spur. A small waterfall underneath would be nice too. Any pics of a layout like this anywhere, or a track plan?
The purpose of forced perspective isn't really to fool the eye; it's to fool the camera. Our binocular vision is hard to fool with tricks like that unless there's actually an appreciable distance between objects (amusement park rides use such tricks to great effect because they have a much deeper space to work with). But when seen through a single-vision camera, forced perspective on a train layout can be very effective.
By the way, Roundhousecat, welcome to the Forums, and I love your "Spaceward Ho!" icon. I have fond memories of that game.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Some more on various comments. Steve's got a good point on fooling the camera's monovision. But you can force much the same on human viewers by limiting the view they can have. The binocular advanatage of human's is still there, but this tends to suppress the help this is in determining distance. I have a very narrow aisle where my line to Animas Forks ends up, so the person viewing it is prettry restricted other than turning their head from side to side.
There are several tricks here, most notably how making the distant perspective higher helps. Behind the HO scale Gold Prince is some of the workers' housing. It's in N and works pretty well here. Note there is a small amount of photoimage backdrop to help the effect.
These are Grandt Line, and they also make the same basic structure in HO, which appear elsewhere on the layout. If there was space, having a few in HO in the foreground would enhance the effect, so something to keep in mind when considering what to build. If it's available in both scales, it makes it easy to use this enhancement.
At the top of the pass above Animas Forks there are some sheep being herded and Bob Richardson's old Chevy Suburban coming down the trail, all in N, too.
Finally, using a single item also enhances the effect of forced perspective, as there's nothing to compare it to for size that's nearby. An N cabin in the mountains I had for awhile...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Great suggestions guys.
Steve, I still play Spaceward Ho! Love the game. Wish they would do a update to it. Simple game, hard to master. I still play it on my Android phone and PC.
So I guess now the only thing left to do is 1: Finish my basement walls, 2: Decide what to layout, 3: Start building.
I have a pretty good idea of what I want and wanted to bounce some ideas out there for what would work and not to waste my time and money.
Thanks again.
The freight cars look great. HO scale for the tree or N in the distance?
The above photo is HO cars sitting on N track, with N cars in the background. I wanted to get an idea of what the OP's idea might look like. Well, in the flesh it is not very convincing but does look good in photos. Might work better if there was some way of gradually reducing item sizes towards the rear, perhaps with trees or buildings.
bagal
bagal:
I agree, the photo looks very convincing.
I thought of trying to do the same sort of thing with identical HO and N scale coal trains. The theory was that the HO train would disappear into a tunnel in the foreground and a short time later the N scale train would emerge from a tunnel portal further along in the background. Then the N scale train would go part way around a loop, disappear into another tunnel, and then the HO train would appear again coming out of another portal in the foreground further down the scene.
While it sounded like an interesting project, the logistics and the space required were way beyond what I was capable of doing. Now, if I ever win the lottery....
A while ago Ulrich posted a video of a very small module where a railbus appeared in something close to S scale (or possibly O scale, the scene was quite detailed) in the foreground, then disappeared only to return in mid scene in HO scale, and then disappeared again and then showed up in the background in N scale. I'm not sure if I have the scales correct but that isn't the point. The whole scene was very captivating, and I don't believe it was much more than three feet wide and maybe three feet deep.
Interesting possibilities.