Control panel question

[rrinker]

(more of a 'user interface' question, actually)

I use Tortoise switch motors. I am building a simple circuit that will allow momentary contact pushbottons to operate the Tortoises, and allow eventual connection to a computer signalling/CTC system built around the C/MRI system. There will be local controls via the pushbuttons for every switch, and the controls will be arranged in a schematic-type panel located near the controlled trackage (ie, on the fascia right in front of the switch being controlled). My question concerns not how to do this electrically, or how to make such a panel, that much I know.
What I am looking for is advice on the user interface - should both the normal and reverse pushbuttosn be the same color, or should I make one red and one black (typical colors that are available)? And repeater LEDs on the panel, to show the position - both red, or green for the normal router and red for diverging? I've been looking for pictures of how others have done this but haven't found too much.

--Randy

[cwclark]

i'd like to suggest that you position the push buttons on your diagram to indicate the route the train will take..in other words, when you make the diagram of say a turnout going straight or on to a diverging track, put the push buttons at that location...I'm not using momentary switches but DP/DT which will also work with a tortoise but what I've done is drill a hole at the turnout diagram and that's where I install the DP/DT switch..so when i look at the diagram I know right away what position the turnout is lined up to..if it's a left hand switch on the diagram and the toggle is up, then i know the train will take the diverging route..if the toggle is down then i know the train will go straight thru the turnout..the same could work for momentary switches ...place one on the diagram at the diverging track and the other on the straight track of the turnout and have the LED's right next to it to let you know what track the turnout is lined up on...one other thing...check the back of the diagram board and be sure there is room for the switch to fit so that it doesn't hit the benchwork behind the digram control panel board before you install it...Chuck[:D]

[cwclark]

here is a pic of my main control panel http://community.webshots.com/photo/137793353/200166453SbmTOd
here is a pic of the auxillary panel...the position of the toggles tells me what position the turnouts are at http://community.webshots.com/photo/137793353/163237081NWUzSK

[rrinker]

Yeah, I WAS going to use toggles originally, but the whole computer interface thing works a lot easier if the controlling circuit is done through a flip-flop type of thing. The circuit works by connecting the desired side to ground - precisely what the open collector sink on the C/MRI output cards do.

The buttons will be on the track line diagrams, and the LEDs right next to the appropriate button - I just wonder if they should all be the same color, or if button and/or LED color should also be an indication of route. For the colorblind, it wouldn't matter - want to take the siding, press the button on the sidng, and when the LED light sup, the turnout is lines. Doesn't matter what color. But what about the rest of the world? Do we expect a different color in this situation? Eventually, there will be proper Type G color light signals trackside (unless I move my era back a little bit and someone makes an OPERATING HO scale banjo signal...).

--Randy

[SteelMonsters]

Forgive my rude and crude circuit, but this circuit should light one LED only when the output is grounded and light the other LED only when the output is not grounded. As for the values of the resistors, zener voltage, and the input voltage, they all still need to be configured to circuit conditions.




As for LED color, I use red LED's for block occupation, green for normal and yellow for reverse (diverging).

[SteelMonsters]

I was a bit tired last night and completely misunderstood your post. [#oops]


With the CTC panel, you are going to have the switch that controls the position of the turnout (normal or reverse) and a third option for local control. When the CTC panel takes control of an area, you want LED representation of how the turnouts are lined. You are looking for color of LED's and pushbuttons that will be standard in the future. Is that correct? I haven't seen any standard other than making is KISS compatable.

Another question is are you going to use simple or complex track routing for multiple turnouts/latters. Simpl would have one approch track split off into a number of tracks. Press a button and a route is automatically selected from the approch track to the destination track. This get complex when dealing with multiple entry and exit points. At this point an enter and exit button might be better. I mean that a operator would press the track that they are entering the area on and then select the destination track. Then all the tracks line up accordingly.

Question about "advice on the user interface" Are you looking for a way to make is easier to learn and understand for someone that hasn't operated many layouts, or are working soley at a standard.

I guess I'm still a bit confused on what exactly are you looking for.

[DMNolan]

You might want to join the CMRI users group on Yahoo. There have been several discussions about panels and control over there. This is a very active group and you will find lots of help on CMRI issues.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/

[Anonymous]

Having tried both over the years, I would recommend red for diverging route and green for main or "normal" route for your LED indicators.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteelMonsters

I was a bit tired last night and completely misunderstood your post. [#oops]


With the CTC panel, you are going to have the switch that controls the position of the turnout (normal or reverse) and a third option for local control. When the CTC panel takes control of an area, you want LED representation of how the turnouts are lined. You are looking for color of LED's and pushbuttons that will be standard in the future. Is that correct? I haven't seen any standard other than making is KISS compatable.

Exactly. Whatever I decide on will be used consistently over the entire layout. Basicall, should I use all one color, or different colors for the different routes, ie both red buttons, both black buttons, or red for one route and black for the other. Same with LEDs. On one hand, different colors seems to make sense, but ont he other hand, using red and green LEDs seems to also have some sort of 'stop' and 'go' connotation with doesn't really apply here. Just because the turnout is lines straight through doesn't mean you CAN go.

QUOTE:
Another question is are you going to use simple or complex track routing for multiple turnouts/latters. Simpl would have one approch track split off into a number of tracks. Press a button and a route is automatically selected from the approch track to the destination track. This get complex when dealing with multiple entry and exit points. At this point an enter and exit button might be better. I mean that a operator would press the track that they are entering the area on and then select the destination track. Then all the tracks line up accordingly.

Yard ladders will have route control, you want to go in on track 5, you press the button on track 5 and all turnouts will line so that only track 5 is connected to the lead.

QUOTE:
Question about "advice on the user interface" Are you looking for a way to make is easier to learn and understand for someone that hasn't operated many layouts, or are working soley at a standard.

I guess I'm still a bit confused on what exactly are you looking for.

The latter, mostly. Given that there will be a standard, it will make it easy to learn how to operate. Bottom line, on the control panel is a schematic of the track. There's a siding off the main. You want to stay on the main, you pu***he button on the main side. You want to take the siding, you pu***he button on the siding side. Since buttons provide no visual indication of the choice you made, there will be LEDs next to each button to show which one you pressed. Now, do you make both pushbuttons the same solor, or use different colors, and are the LEDs all the same color, or do you use different colors to differentiate the route selected?

--Randy

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMNolan

You might want to join the CMRI users group on Yahoo. There have been several discussions about panels and control over there. This is a very active group and you will find lots of help on CMRI issues.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/

I'm in there. Read all the archive messages, too [:D] I think I have all the 'hows' figured out, electrically. It's the user interface I'm asking about here.

[SteelMonsters]

LEDs have color limitations. Red, Orange, Green, and Yellow are cheap where Blue and white are expensive.

Another option is use differnt colors lines representing the differnt types of track (main, siding, branch, spur) Then use a single color LED for turnout position. To make this stand out more, you could put several LEDs in. For instance: an LED by the points, another just past the frog and the last one by the button.

Maybe even put small instructions in the corner of each panel such as:

RED = BLOCK OCCUPIED
GREEN = CURRENT ROUTE
BLACK = SELECT ROUTE

I do agree that your railroad should have standard throughout. I guess color choice is more on what makes more sense for the average person.

Maybe it would be worth the while to make a few small dummy control panels, just to see which one is more user friendly. Might be a good idea to get some others opinions on it too.

[rrinker]

Well, I DID start on a 'dummy panel'. Actually, it's a whole test piece of layout, so I can test track laying, switch machines, ballasting, and scenery before I commit anything to the actual layout that I can't easily undo. Right now I have one Tortoise mounted, a section of straight track with one siding branching off, on a 2x4 piece of 2" thick foam. Wiring it up is the next stage, hence m question on the user interface. The control circuit I have built and works great on the bench.
I notice you mentioned green for the selected route, and black buttons. Coincidently, I asked this question on a non-model railroad message board I frequent and was given the same suggestion. Good thing that the pushbuttons I bought come with 2 red and 2 black, and I bought a pack of red AND a pack of green LEDs (I'll use them eventually anyway).

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Nice panel, Chuck
j1