Commentary desired- small layout for practice & young boy play

[bpickering]

I'm playing around with ideas for a small layout to accompli***he following goals:

• be small and storable
• allow for entertaining a little boy (age 3.5), both by running trains in simple circles, and by letting him get dirty "playing" with plaster, ballast, etc.[:D]
• try out new techniques (to me) like foam for scenery, cork or homosote roadbed, etc.
• provide entertainment for a couple of years until he's old-enough to help me build a larger layout

After a couple of attempts, here is one of my favorites so far:
http://bpickering.members.winisp.net/playforcharles-three.bmp
Notes:

• motive power will be mostly four-axle diesels, 40'-50' boxcars, and 2-bay or 3-bay hoppers (open-topped for "coal mine", closed-top for "potash mine")
• limited staging eventually provided by two simple "clip-on" staging yards of two tracks apiece as shown at bottom of the picture
• terrain will be classic "Desert West"- mostly sagebrush ground cover
• although 4'x5' is a kinda odd size, it seems about as big as I want to try picking up and putting away by myself, once even light landscaping materials have been added
• lowest area is in the area of the "town" front & center, with loop curving up and around to the "back".
• Grades are pretty-steep to get the "coal mine" up over the "mainline", but I don't intend to be running more than 4-5 cars at a time anyway.
• buildings will be either cardstock to begin with, or no more than "Plasticville USA"-quality to start out with (remember the audience?)
• Initially, will be single-train for a couple of months, until I decide to spring for the DCC
• providing access to the track under "Coal Mine Hill" is very important!!!!! (esp. with that unprototypical turnout in there) That hill will probably be formed with cardboard-strip forms, and have an open back for this purpose.

I'm looking for suggestions that people might have regarding:

• what might be another good industry instead of the "potash mine" for this environment?
• industries other than "machinery manufacturer" or other generic for the two industries in the upper-right?
• modifications to trackplan to make it more "interesting", from the POV of switching (i.e., the loop is, in good part, to entertain Charles, while the sidings are to entertain Daddy)

Brian Pickering

[camarokid]

Knowing the scale would help considerably. Why not make it a coal mine? The other two could be a crusher and a loading bin or some kind of manufacturing that needs coal for fuel. Just a thought.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by camarokid

Knowing the scale would help considerably. Why not make it a coal mine? The other two could be a crusher and a loading bin or some kind of manufacturing that needs coal for fuel. Just a thought.

Sorry, HO-scale. N is a little too small for the little boy's fingers, and I don't think even O-27 would fit into a 4'x5' area like this. Actually, it'll be built mostly with ancient snap-track that I recovered from my teenage layout- kinda handing down from generation to generation.

If I understand correctly, you're saying make the industry labelled "Potash mine" into an adjunct to the coal mine? That's the kind of idea I'm looking for. :-)

Brian

[camarokid]

Yes. Mostly for your son to have something to do with his hands. He could play with the plastic coal loads putting them in and taking them out. My two girls loved to do this when they were young because it made them feel like they were doing something on the railroad. It will make him feel good too. Something to show Mom. Have a good time bonding and enjoy all the little things he finds interesting because it ends all too soon.

[egmurphy]

Brian

I think the current plan would accomplish what you want to do. I do have a couple of minor comments.
1. I think the note 'incline up begins here' is misplaced. If the coal mine is the highest point, then the mainline and yard lead that pass under it should be flat. The incline probably starts at the switch just above the potash mine, no?
2. If I interpret the plan correctly, the grey line indicates rough outline of elevated sections/hills. That means that while switching the yard, the loco and cars will spend a lot of time hidden under the hill. I would think that would be a bother, but you may have already realized that and decided to live with it.
3. There's very little distance along the yard lead between the switch leading to the yard and the switch that connects to the mainline (where the 'incline' note currently is). So even making up trains of 3-5 cars you will be using the mainline to assemble them. Again, that may not be a problem for you in your current plan of operation. I just wanted to point it out.

A question. Since you're already planning on 4 axle diseasels and short cars, would you consider using 15" maximum radius curves? If you went with 15"curves, I think you might be able to do something similar to this plan (operationally) on a 3' x 6'-8" hollow core wood door. This would probably be lighter, and just as stiff, as a 4'x 5' plywood sheet after you add framing 1x3's or 1x4's for stiffness, and be easier to handle and move. Just a thought, especially as you indicate that this layout is only planned for a couple of years before building something bigger.

One last question, have you actually tried checking the layout with track radius, switch dimesions, etc to be sure you can fit all this in on the size of layout you're planning? This could be with either pencil/compass/ruler on paper or using one of the simple free track planning software programs such as Atlas's RTS.


Congrats on building the layout with your son.

Best regards

Ed

[yellowducky]

Actually HO takes more room(36" circle compared to 27" or 31"), but being smaller scale, it looks like more.

I still favor something larger than HO for children under 8.

Make sure you have a kid friendly control system.
Like a DC transformer with only one lever for forward/reverse; or maybe in 027, an old (Marx or Lionel) engine with a 2-position E-unit.

Happy TRAINing.

[CFournier]

Brian,
My son is now 5 and a half . He started playing with HO trains at age 2 and a half ! He broke many couplers and droped a few cheap Bachman F units on the floor but was always doing his best to keep everything on the 4 by 6 layout.
Now he graduted to Athearn diesels and a few steam engines that he handles like a pro ! We are switching to DCC with a 9 by 9 L shaped layout and he can't wait to see it happen. I own some nice Genesis, Kato, Atlas and IHC that he can't run right now, but he could probably do a good job switching the yard as he understands that a railroad has a purpose, and watching trains go round and round does not interest him anymore.
Chris.

[CFournier]

Brian,
I forgot to mention that THOMAS, my son, had Thomas the tank engine wooden railway toys since he turned one year old, and could do all the handling he wanted with them and be more carefull with the HO stuff. But then again, some of those wooden engines cost as much as an HO engine !!! and he almost got the whole series of engines, cars and structures in the line !
Chris.

[Dayliner]

QUOTE: Make sure you have a kid friendly control system.

Yellowducky,

I agree, though on the other hand my just-turned-four-year-old son manages just fine with a Digitrax Zephyr, and can couple up to a cut of standing cars like a pro.

Hey, a dad can brag, can't he?

[CFournier]

Dayliner,
My son will soon be using our new Prodigy Advance DCC, using the road numbers on the locos as adress numbers. He will have his own handheld throttle and I don't fear too much for accidents.
Chris.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by egmurphy
1. I think the note 'incline up begins here' is misplaced. ... The incline probably starts at the switch just above the potash mine, no?
2. If I interpret the plan correctly, the grey line indicates rough outline of elevated sections/hills.
3. There's very little distance along the yard lead between the switch leading to the yard and the switch that connects to the mainline (where the 'incline' note currently is).

consider using 15" maximum radius curves? ... 3' x 6'-8" hollow core wood door.

simple free track planning software programs such as Atlas's RTS.

Wow, Ed, lots to think about. Fortunately, I have actually already thought about a number of them.
1) Actually, it is correctly-marked. The "back-half" of the layout is designed to be about 2" higher than the front. Otherwise, if you calculate out the slope, it's coming to around 10%. As-is, it's eased to a max grade of about 5%. Yeah, that's high, but I only expect to be running a few cars at a time.
2) Yes, it will be somewhat of a bother that the switcher backs into a tunnel while doing cuts, but it's a compromise. [:)] I might decide to "open up" part to make a "cut" instead of a tunnel, but it's awful tight, space-wise.
3) I'm thinking of trains mostly in the 4-6-car length max (note, the staging lines, at 36" apiece, would hold a max of about 6 40' cars... that becomes maybe 4 or 5 cars plus engine plus van. I'm willing to accept the occasional blocking if I need to switch that many at once (after all, a limited amount of interaction makes for more "interesting" operations, doesn't it?).
4) I considered alternate "framework", but it is mostly constructed out of materials I had on-hand. Total out-of-pocket for the framework was about $3.00 for two 1x2s, while the plywood was old 3/8" left over from the safety "fence" that kept my little Charles from climbing over the end of the couch and escaping his living-room play area. [:D] I'm a firm believer in recycling.... [;)]
5) The image I linked was exported from CadRail8, and was generated using the Atlas Code-100 library. I'm using the same SW to design the "dream" layout as well.

WRT YellowDucky, currently I've got the MRC DC throttle I received when I had my wisdom teeth out at age 13. Fast/Slow, and Forward/Backward. As mentioned, I'm eventually thinking of going to DCC, so I'll do wiring with that in mind. Since there are no reversing tracks, that means wiring in a power bus and automotive bulbs for protection, and maybe some simple isolation for troubleshooting. However, I should pretty-much be able to substitute a basic DCC system like Bachman or Zephyr by wiring quick-connects. The DCC decoders I'm considering all support DC operation, so all I should need to do is remove all but one loco to go from DCC back to DC.

If anyone else thinks of something, please contribute.

Brian

[yellowducky]

Everybody is different, and everybody learns at a different rate.

I've had young children do fine operating my N layout, and older children having a nightmare with my 0 and large scale stuff.

Age old advice still rules: KISSMIF.
You can always complicate matters, later!

Remember, this is suppose to be a FUN pastime [:)] .

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by yellowducky

Everybody is different, and everybody learns at a different rate.

Yeah, I'm not worried about Charles learning quickly.

Do you know the "child-proof" outlets, where you have to partially insert the plug, twist, then insert the rest of the way?

After he figured out the simple "plastic-plug" safety plugs at age 2, I figured that I had better protect himself from himself. I went and installed the "child-proof" plugs throughout the house. Spent $50 or so on the covers, and a good afternoon doing all the swap.

I watched him figure out the new outlet. It took him less than five minutes. [:0]

He has already demonstrated that he can successfully place an HO-scale car on the rails about 90% of the time (and gets 3 out of 4 axles the other 10%). While he mainly likes just watching them going 'round in circles ("Now the big engine, now the blue one..."), he's shown enough interest in splitting and making up his generic Brio/Thomas-style trains that I'm sure he'll be interested in more within a few months.

I'm just waiting for my Veranda Turbine to arrive... what do you think he'll think about SOUND? [:D]

Brian

[egmurphy]

Sounds good Brian. I'm glad to hear you had already considered those points. You get extra credit for constructing the benchwork from recycled materials, anything you can do to keep costs down helps (...to provide more money to purchase Turbine locos.. [:D] ).

QUOTE: ...what do you think he'll think about SOUND?

Probably ask you to turn up the volume.

Looks like you two are off to a good start. Post some photos when you get something going. If Charles is as precoccious as you describe him, my guess is he'll be after you to convert to DCC sooner rather than later!

Enjoy

Ed

[yellowducky]

Sound, lights, and smoke. Wow!

Gons, flats, and boxcars with working doors. And don't forget the goods for the goods wagons.

Tunnels, bridges, over/unders, and crossovers. Don't run through the bumpers(buffers as Thomas and Friends would say).

AND don't anyone forget, girls like running trains, too!

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bpickering
Sorry, HO-scale. N is a little too small for the little boy's fingers, and I don't think even O-27 would fit into a 4'x5' area like this. Actually, it'll be built mostly with ancient snap-track that I recovered from my teenage layout- kinda handing down from generation to generation.

My children favored this design I call the switchman. It is 42" x 52". Made with snap-track and snap-switches. The track branching to the outside was intentional so it could be connected to other similarly configured layouts.



When I was that age I rearranged my plasticville town every other day. I would suggest you experiment with scenery on only half the layout leaving some wide open flat space for a "town play area".

[BRJN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bpickering
I'm looking for suggestions that people might have regarding:

• what might be another good industry instead of the "potash mine" for this environment?
• industries other than "machinery manufacturer" or other generic for the two industries in the upper-right?
• modifications to trackplan to make it more "interesting", from the POV of switching (i.e., the loop is, in good part, to entertain Charles, while the sidings are to entertain Daddy)

How about a stone quarry (excuse for a vertical cliff), and a tombstone carver in one building?

A stockyard would need feed and grain in, cattle out. Sometimes a gondola is set out to pick up the manure. (Is your son potty-trained? The cows aren't!)

Clay (for glassware) is mined and the glass factory could be a different-looking building.

I would have one interchange be for some line other than Union Pacific (Milwaukee Road, for variety? [:)] ). But then, my belt line RR has 3 "parent" lines plus 2 lesser partners.

If you model the 1950's, you could put Arnold's Diner in a corner.

If you have a river on the backdrop, one table-edge siding could lead to a barge or boat (a.k.a. a bath toy?). Model the "water" with watercolor paints and let your son paint the river. You get to do the banks.

[bpickering]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRJN
How about a stone quarry (excuse for a vertical cliff), and a tombstone carver in one building?

A stockyard would need feed and grain in, cattle out. Sometimes a gondola is set out to pick up the manure. (Is your son potty-trained? The cows aren't!)

Clay (for glassware) is mined and the glass factory could be a different-looking building.

I would have one interchange be for some line other than Union Pacific (Milwaukee Road, for variety? [:)] ). But then, my belt line RR has 3 "parent" lines plus 2 lesser partners.

If you model the 1950's, you could put Arnold's Diner in a corner.

If you have a river on the backdrop, one table-edge siding could lead to a barge or boat (a.k.a. a bath toy?). Model the "water" with watercolor paints and let your son paint the river. You get to do the banks.

Quarry- Guess that could be a possibility. Don't think that a single tombstone carver will provide enough demand, though... [:)] (I intend this layout to be somewhat like Shrek/an onion... it's got layers. Fun for little boy, but some minor pretense of being faithful to a semi-prototypical scenery/industry)

Stockyard- yeah, he's potty-trained, but you're right, he might like the cows. Not quite prototypical for the region I was thinking, though.... Well, I don't have any scenery done yet, so could be changed to Northern Utah, for example. That could also open up the possibility of a grain elevator.

Clay- actually, kaolin might be a good replacement for the potash, since I've got a number of shorty covered hoppers often used for these cargos, IIRC.

Harbor- I'm thinking it's getting a little tight for much in these lines, and it's definitely not prototypical for where I was thinking of modelling. Maybe on the next layout (in a couple of years, when he can hold a hammer or screwdriver....)

Other interchanges- since I've still got some old Santa Fe units (from my youth), that's more likely. I just said UP since that's my main interest. Of course, since this is so TINY, the main reason I like the UP (the BIG IRON!!!!!) won't show up anyway (Challengers & Veranda Turbines on 18" curves?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!), it's something to consider being flexible about. However, I was just tempted today, when I took in my DOA Veranda (waaaaah!) by the Kato RS/2 in UP colors. [:)] Maybe I just like Armor Yellow? [;)]

Thanks,

Brian

[ondrek]

my son has been playing with this layout since he was just over 2yrs old:
http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/HO%20Train/DSCN0029

he runs his thomas train on it, I occasionally run my 4-4-2 as seen in the pic.

that board is 4'x5' and it slides out from under his bed.

Kevin