I'd be interested is reading a tutorial on yard design. I know we can read the model railroad books on this, but it's not obvious to me how all the tracks in a full sized yard are used. And since many of us don't have room for full sized yard, understanding how a truncated yard would look would be informative.
So thoughts I have are:
- which provides more storage, a ladder on only one side or both sides of the in-bound track
- is an escape track always needed, when bringing a train in locomotive first
- with an escape track, is there are particular turnout arrangement that maximize train length
- is a yard lead necessary and what options exist
if the basics are covered, what ancillary tracks are most useful
- locomotive storage
- caboose track
- if there are industries located near/in the yard, what options exist
i'm sure there are aspects i'm not aware of. ?
at least on the club layout I operate on which is point to point (loop yard to loop yard), the yards are primarily staging areas. So train schedules are based on a train leaving a yard making room for a train to come. Can yards be designed better for this purpose?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
[quote user="gregc"]
Hello, I too am facinated by yards. I find going to google maps and typing in a name, such as "CSX Yard" or "Michigan Central Rail Road" I will more often than not find what I am looking for. I study the layout and flip between tabs of historical maps I can find. This helps me try and get a feel for the originals designers goals. I am in the process of rebuilding my road after a 20 years hiatus so this is all exciting and new, but tried and proven layouts are out there just waiting to be discovered. Hope this helps happy modeling :-)
Freelancing MCRR/NYC Northern Division - Angelo
Greg,
I am a huge fan of freight yards. I would love to have a full size freight yard to handle all of the cars I own. However, I get brought back to reality very quickly when I (as well as others I'm sure), that space is always an issue for many, so you try to make the best use of space
My yard is a double ladder and if you can see it in the photo, you can run around the ladder if you want to shove a pull a string of cars. I've had numerous sessions and the yardmaster enjoys the work.
Neal
gregci'm sure there are aspects i'm not aware of. ?
Rather than provide a detailed analysis here, I'd suggest the Layout Design Journal #7 special freight yards issue. It was first published in 1992, but copies remain available http://www.ldsig.org/publications/journal . It has a wealth of information that you'll never get from a forum post.
Rob Spangler
Many (if not all) of your questions are answered in Andy Sperandeo's The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards (out of print, but available used).
Some of your other questions are totally dependent on the arrangement of the rest of the layout. Both prototype and model yards are best designed based on the specifics of the traffic patterns, train density, location relative to other yards, yard purpose (interchange, industry support, junction, division point, etc.), and other factors. There is no one-size-fits-all for yards.
gregcwhich provides more storage, a ladder on only one side or both sides of the in-bound track
Math would suggest that in a given layout length, ladders on each side of the main creates more useable body track length because of the overlap of ladders -- but this is usually not an efficient arrangement overall for an active yard if there is any amount of through traffic on the main line. For staging and storage that's not an issue.
Although it dates back to the steam era, the NMRA's reprint of John Droege's Freight Terminals & Trains is a great reference source for the prototype, although the size of the yards profiled is beyond all but the largest layouts.
Yard leads are not found on every prototype yard (especially branch terminal or other low-traffic areas). But they are often a useful model compromise based on the much higher density of trains in the model world than in real-life.
The alternative to yard leads? Run fewer trains in the model session.
gregcat least on the club layout I operate on which is point to point (loop yard to loop yard), the yards are primarily staging areas. So train schedules are based on a train leaving a yard making room for a train to come. Can yards be designed better for this purpose?
Trains occupy space. If the club's staging yards are crammed full to begin with, then yes, you must have one train out for every one in. Again, the answer may be to run fewer trains in a session if the infrastructure cannot handle the current traffic density and there is no space to add additional staging tracks. (And if folks are unwilling to physically remove and add cars during a session in an active staging yard or "Mole" .)
One option often overlooked is to begin (and end) a session with one or more trains staged "en route" out on the line. This one of many techniques to get more productivity out of existing yards.
Track Planning for Realistic Operation offers tips for flexible and compact small yards.
Layout Design Journal #7 (June 1992) of the Layout Design SIG also has useful information about prototype and model yards. Back issues are available. (+1 to Rob's suggestion made while I was typing)
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
This might help you get started.
http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Yards are not used for storage.
Yards are used for sorting cars into trains. So the minimum size of the yard is dictated by what branches or lines feed into the yard and also at the more distant yards adjacent to it.
Track 0 is for through trains
Track 1 is for arriving trains
Track 2 is for cars destined for the DET yard (say in Detroit)Track 3 is for cars destined for the CHI yard (say in Chicago)
Track 4 is for cars destined for the STL yard ( in yes, you guessd it, in St. Louis)
Track 5 is for LOCAL cars between Here and There
Track 6 is for LOCAL cars between Here and Wayoverthere
There are also RIP tracks, engine servicing tracks etc etc.
But storage, no railroads do not 'store' cars, there is no money in that, they MOVE cars.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion But storage, no railroads do not 'store' cars, there is no money in that, they MOVE cars.
Brother Lion, I beg to differ. That would be nice for the railroad and Warren Buffet, but rail traffic fluctuates.
Car loads per week in 2014 hit a high of 590,000. They finished up last year at around 390,000. 200K fewer trips/week mean they either they traveled slower or they sat somewhere or they were sent to the secret Nazi train tunnels in Poland.
https://public.tableau.com/views/AARRailTrafficData/WRTDash?:embed=y&:toolbar=no&:loadOrderID=0&:display_count=yes
Interesting charts on the Amer Rail Assoc site.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Tyr this site.
http://housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
Explains a yard layout very well.
Steve
Obviously, how much of a yard you can capture depends greatly on space. I have a yard that I designed after reading the book on yard design. Like many other Kalmbach books, I often refer back long after purchase. Def get yourself a copy; you won't be sorry! You'll also get a stronger education faster than the forums.
There are plenty of options for industries near yards. On mine, I have an intermodal area branching off the yard. You also can have an LPG or propane dealer. No two yards are exactly the same; this is also true of how two people replicate them.
Don't worry about having a textbook plan of a yard. Yards have been known to be somewhat disfunctional if the geography dictates. I remember being a wee lad visiting the relatives in Revelstoke B.C. and hearing the Uncle and Cousins that worked for the CPR saying " if they could move the Kicking Horse River 500 yards to the North and Take such and such mountain down, that would solve a lot of problems in the various yards that are located through the mountains". There was always shop talk going on in their houses, and I wonder why I like trains.
First things first: what is the nature of your railroad? In consideration of the grades your toy trains must face, the curvature, the nature of the tracks (single, twinned, passing sidings, and how the yard is to 'work'), you design a functional yard that looks like it serves the railroad's interests and has a multi-functional nature all by itself.
Will it be stub, diamond, open ladder, multi-throated, extemity throated, split by the mains and arrivals, as one responder mentioned already? Do you have the space for whatever design appeals to you that WILL ALSO accommodate an entire consist, or if not, allow you to do some classification? Otherwise you will be using the 1-4-0 to handle cars, getting them from one ladder track to another.
Your yard access should not cause classifying locomotives to foul the main. That's rule #1, as proposed in that site of the housatonic. Ideally, you have an A/D track (arrivals, departures) that gets the slowing train off the main and allows the points to be lined for through traffic ASAP. From there, how many ladder tracks can you fit? Is there room for a passenger depot and double-ended siding? Will the A/D have to do double duty for that provision? If in pre-1970 times, you'll need a caboose track...again, not a must, but almost all yards had them. Will your engines get service there? A small backshop for minor repairs, coaling tower and water standpipe...where should they go so that trains can come in, top up, and be on their way inside of 10 minutes?
I think the heavy majority of us will only have room for maybe three ladders and a lead, and possibly an A/D and a caboose track or turntable lead and roundhouse nearby.
cuyamaMany (if not all) of your questions are answered in Andy Sperandeo's The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards (out of print, but available used).
i've bought many books used. Surprised at the used cost of the above book. Must be good. Track planning for realistic operation (TPFRO) didn't answer my questions.
without waiting to read thru the books, I'll ask more direct questions.
In my case, I have a small point-to-point. If I have a small yard at one end, I assume I would pull a train into some yard track, locomotive first, and need an escape track (top) as I've illustrated it below.
in the past, when I've drawn this, the top track would have and additional turnout and extend the length of the other tracks. It then seems that either track could be used to bring a train into the yard.
but as i've drawn it here, there seems little doubt that the train is brought into the second track from the top. The arrangement of the escape track turnout on the left maximizes the train length that can be serviced. It allows the end of the train to overhang the other turnouts because the back of the train can be split and move into one of the other tracks.
if there is a cabooses, it can be temporarily moved onto the escape track or even placed at the end of the second track using the escape track. The outgoing train would be built on the second track with the caboose already in place. The escape track can be used for sorting cars.
Much of this may seem obvious, or maybe i'm totally wrong. I'd like read some discussion. I've rarely seen this type of arrangement in drawings presented on this forum. It seems that trains are expected to back into the yard. (is that prototypical)? I doubt a real railroad would need such an arrangement, hence why this might not be in TPFRO.
If the next most useful yard track were for storing cabeeses, I don't think a prototypical design would make sense on a space constrained layout. I think a logical place would be to add a turnout to the escape track and extend to the right and use the short length of track for storage.
another way to look at this in a space contrained layout may be that this is a station with the top two tracks serving as a siding allowing the engine to swap ends for a return journey if it were a passenger train.
some of you may cringe at this not being prototypical. I think a space contained layout needs to break some rules, but try to think how a real railroad might solve similar problems.
Your situation seems similar to branch terminal yards on the prototype and well-designed layouts. The basic schematic typically used is fairly simple, a runaround at the end of the main track between it and the first yard track. [Sometimes a crossover is used to provide a small pocket (dotted lines) to stash a caboose or something similar, but not always.]
Of course, additional yard body tracks could be added as needed within the available space. Real-life railroads prefer a simple ladder like this because the switchpoints are moved by people walking on the ground and the switchstands can all be on the outside of the ladder -- and on the prototype and the model the switching moves are easier than they would be for two ladders split on either side of the main track.
This seems to give the longest tracks overall for a given space, although one could use a compound ladder to gain back a little length or angle the ladder turnouts slightly steeper than the frog number. These concepts are discussed in Track Planning for Realistic Operation and in the Sperandeo yards book.
As I said, this general arrangement seems pretty common, although sometimes it can be a little hard to spot. For example, Andy Sperandeo’s San Jacinto District layout has this same basic schematic in San Jacinto, but it looks a little different with the addition of the turntable and the angling of the yard tracks. It is a branch terminal yard.
Again, it’s hard to know exactly what to suggest to you without knowing what the rest of the layout looks like and how the yard will be used. How many trains arrive and depart in the yard per “day” (session)? Will more than one train be in the yard at a time? How many trains (if any) originate and terminate here? How much space do you actually have for this element relative to desired train length? Where do the cars already in the yard when a train arrives come from?
The answers to these questions will suggest whether a caboose track is important, for example. If there is only ever one caboose in town at a time, it might well be placed in a yard track for its short stay in town.
A house track or team track might be an addition that offers more operating interest, for example.
With more information, folks might be able to make other suggestions.
gregcsome of you may cringe at this not being prototypical. I think a space contained layout needs to break some rules, but try to think how a real railroad might solve similar problems.
I could be wrong, but I think that the prototype may have already solved this particular problem. Certainly, there are times one needs to stray from the real thing just because of space constraints -- but your situation seems similar to branch ("dead end") terminals on the prototype.
gregcIt seems that trains are expected to back into the yard. (is that prototypical)?
Not for freight trains, typically. That's why there are runarounds in these branch terminal yards and in generalized examples like those in Track Planning for Realistic Operation.
[In contrast, many large pasenger terminals were designed to have all trains back in, but there were train-length wyes or balloon tracks nearby.]
Byron
BroadwayLion Yards are not used for storage. <snip> But storage, no railroads do not 'store' cars, there is no money in that, they MOVE cars.
<snip>
Really, izzatso?
Lion needs to get out more.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/haminahbob/Proto%20Rolling%20Stock/IMG_3981.jpg
Wrong on both counts, they do use yard for storage, and railroads do make money on it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cuyamaAgain, it’s hard to know exactly what to suggest to you without knowing what the rest of the layout looks like and how the yard will be used. How many trains arrive and depart in the yard per “day” (session)? Will more than one train be in the yard at a time? How many trains (if any) originate and terminate here? How much space do you actually have for this element relative to desired train length? Where do the cars already in the yard when a train arrives come from?
i was hoping for a more general discussion of yards, not my specific case. I was hoping to hear discussion on the smallest type of yard and how it would change with varying amounts of additional space.
i can see your point that the issues are different for pt-to-pt vs loop layouts and I assume there are other variants as you suggested. (could you discuss how yards are affected by each of your questions)?
i was also interested in hearing discission on yard vs staging area and possibly combined yard/staging
There are an infinite number of options for yards, different yards are for different purposes, so its a pretty wide topic.
It also depends on whether you are discussing the prototype or the model situation.
I was hoping to hear discussion on the smallest type of yard and how it would change with varying amounts of additional space.
The smallest yard is one single ended track. They go up in complexity and design.
The number of yard tracks increases the flexibility for building more "blocks" or classifications of tracks.
The length of the tracks increase the capacity.
Double ended tracks allow a train to be yarded from either end and allow engines or cabooses to be added or removed to either end of the train/track. The more double ended tracks the more flexibility. My layout had more or less 2 double ended tracks, I increased that to 3 to provide more flexibility.
A yard lead keeps trains off the main track while switching. Whether or not you need that depends on the number of trains that will be impacted. If your layout is an industrial area, with only one train, then you don't need a lead. If you have a busy main line then its a great idea.
A big yard may have a switching lead on both ends. That way two switch engines can be operating. In most cases one end is a switch job and classifies cars (putting cars into the yard tracks) and the other end is the trim job that builds outbound trains and does detail blocking (taking cars out of the tracks).
Staging yard don't need leads, caboose tracks, engine tracks, etc. All they need are tracks long enough to hold a train or the size cut you want to stage. They can be single or double ended. Sometimes single ended staging yards have a "turntable" at the stub end to turn engines and facilitate "turning" the trains.
dehusmanThere are an infinite number of options for yards, different yards are for different purposes, so its a pretty wide topic. It also depends on whether you are discussing the prototype or the model situation.
i assume those with larger layouts who have room for more prototypical yards have a good understanding of yard design. I'm not sure how useful that information is on a space constrained layout.
i'm interested in a discussion of yards for smaller layouts. how to maximize the use of space and make what they consider a yard as useful as possible with a couple operators.
what non-prototypical ideals would help maximize the trackage in a model railroad.
Hi gregc
None anything you come up with a railroad somewhere will already have done for much the same reasons as you.
People tend to forget that railroads have space constraints and budgets as well.
Basicaly what you have to do is decide what the yard is for how much room you have to do it then make it A) fit the space you have and B) work with the absalute minimum of moves.
If you have to go up and down the yard six times to do something then it isn't working If you have to go up and down once it is working
A yard can be as small as two dead end tracks if thats all that is needed to perform the task required of the yard
A loco depot can be one track if that's all that is needed
Remember it is the function the yard and traffic amount is to carry that decides shape and size.
You don't maximize a yard you minimze it laying only the track and points needed no more no less, space and money just like the real ones.
regards John
John Busbyanything you come up with a railroad somewhere will already have done for much the same reasons as you.
Well thats not a yard thats a train elevator and Glasgow subway has one
to lift trains out of the subway to go elsewere for repairs.
There is also something similar in London for an isolated subway
Your train elevator does much the same thing takes trains off the railway to go elsewere.
Since the OP's question was not just about 'perfect' yards, but space-limited ones, I'll offer my favorite 'small' yard, the British Inglenook Sidings. Ideal yard for a small layout, like an HO 4x8 or N 2x4.
the inglenook is a simple puzzle that can be all the yard you need for a small layout, assembling 5-car trains out of 8 frieght cars. Its NOT for a room-sized layout, but if you're space limited, it covers the basics: you have the A/D track (5), sorting tracks (3s), yard lead. Basic engine stuff (sand, fuel) can be placed at the end of the yard lead. a 3rd turnout in the middle of the yard lead gets you back to the main, or this can be a whole layout by itself
this is a small layout I made using an inglenook as the yard.
When I hear the iron horse make the hills echo with his snort like thunder, shaking the earth with his feet, and breathing fire and smoke from his nostrils, it seems as if the earth had got a race now worthy to inhabit it.
-- Henry David Thoreau
Here is a link to a PDF on how I made the decisions in building and designing the yard for my layout. You might find it interesting. I do address lots of the typical concerns about model railroad yard design.
http://thewilloughbyline.com/willoughby%20text/Willoughby%20Yard%20design.doc.pdf
I hope this helps,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
i'm realizing that "yard" is a somewhat generic term and can refer to trackwork designed for different purposes (thanks Selector).
the ultimate yard is used to break down trains and reconstruct new trains for different destintations. It's hard for me to imagine a need for this on even a large layout, but this can certainly be a goal of operation on some layouts even if the train simply circles the layout and returns.
In retrospect I realize my need is for staging of a handful of freight trains that are switched (cars picked-up and dropped-off) on the layout and returned. As different trains are switched, cars end up on different trains in staging. While cars can be switched on the trains sitting in the yard, there's no need to do so. there's no need for a yard lead for this purpose.
backing up lengthy (80 car coal, 10 car passenger) trains on the Pacific Southern is avoided (unless you like rerailing cars). But it still seems potentially problematic on small layouts.
I realize that the layout below can only accomodate short length trains in the "yard" and was designed to allow a train operating on the main while another engine is switching the yard. But I think one alternative is to abandon the yard lead and engine spur and begin the yard ladder at the point where it meets the main, lengthening the yard (a la Linn Westcottts "HO Railroad that grows" HRTG)).
ScrewySqrl
A 2nd alternative is to wrap a combined yard lead and engine spur around the mainline track in the bottom right corner requiring the additional turnout in the ladder but still resulting in longer yard tracks.
With longer tains, the potential need to avoid backing into the yard can be lessened by adding an additional turnouts on the main (left) and nearest yard track allowing a train to be brought more direclty onto the yard track and backing it only a short distance. This also creates a 2nd siding on the main if that first yard track is empty.
While these alternatives may be overkill for the small layout above, I believe I've seen similar issues on somewhat larger layouts posted on this forum. I've noticed that Byron seems to locate sidings near yard-like tracks. I believe the purpose for which is to allow a train to be broken down on the siding and cars sorted onto the yard track, avoiding the need to back a train into a yard track yet not blocking the main.
I also realize that the siding in HRTG makes sense because the layout has a reversing loop and trains can enter the yard loco first. I believe the above suggestions are germaine to a layout without a reversing loop.
i often don't understand the purpose of various tracks and turnouts I see in TPFRO. I've read that Tony Koester was often puzzled by some trackwork on the prototype he modeled only to recognize the need for it after operating his layout. Discussions like this can help educate us novices.
There are pictures of two of the yards on my former layout (which was torn down, moved and is in the process of being rebuilt).
The first is the main yard at Wilmington. It is a classification yard. the tracks closest to the wall are industry tracks, then there is the main track, the runner, and the class tracks (5 of them). Tracks 1 and 2 (and the runner) are double ended. The two boxcars are on track 3. There are two short tracks, the caboose track (obvious) and the scale track (the engine is on it).
In addition I have two crossovers, one on either side of the lead so I an yard a southward (towards the camera) or depart a northward train (away from the camera) and I can suck a cut off the main, back onto the switch lead (the right track at the top of the picture).
It proved to be a very flexible yard.
The other yard was an industry support yard at an intermediate location, Coatesville. The first picture is the yard itself. The second picture is looking the other way away from the yard. Coatesville has a main track through the middle and a siding on the aisle side and a running track on the off side. The runner serves as a switching lead and industry lead.